Kenny Carter Dvd.

[stratton]

The bigger the league, the easier it is and the more 'top riders' there appear to be.

 

It's very simple. 8 teams, you have 8 no 1's. 8 no 2's etc. 20 teams, you have 20 no 1's 20 no 2's. And so on. REGARDLESS of the strength of the leagues.

 

The British League in the 70's had more of the worlds top riders in it.. however, its still arguable whether the teams were that much stronger than even current EL teams (although the fast track has blurred that somewhat)... due to their being less teams in the EL now.

 

The British League in the 70's is nowhere near as strong as the top leagues in Sweden and Poland are now.. but again, that's primarily due to the number of teams.

 

The overall standard of riders is around the same. Waihekeaces has already demonstrated this, or do you believe Sidney that Peter Carr, Paul Thorp etc were better than Freddie Lindgren?

No answer again, i will ask you again was the 70s stronger than it is now? iF you say Yes. It does not mean you are showing a weakness far from it.

[BWitcher]

I suggest you read it again Sidney as the answer is there.

 

You are the only person on the thread not answering simple questions.

 

I've asked you 4 times now, name me a top class rider who didn't win most of his races, as you've told us that's not how you judge the ability of a rider and that we should 'forget it'.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BWitcher

[stratton]

Id imagine todays second strings are more competitive. Ther are all professionals, and as such have comparatively better equipment than their latter day equivalents. Secondly, the move to designated gates mean the top riders can't dominate the favoured gates as in the past.

Do you think the second strings are better now i personally dont.

[The White Knight]

No answer again, i will ask you again was the 70s stronger than it is now? iF you say Yes. It does not mean you are showing a weakness far from it.

For what it is worth - I would say that the Teams in the Seventies were a lot stronger than the Elite League nowadays - and I was around then.

 

My reasoning is that most Teams in the British League had at least two, and sometimes three Heat Leaders of International standing, that number nowadays is down to about one (unless you are Poole).

 

We also now have some Riders in the Premier League riding for Great Britain in full Internationals regularly, which rarely happened the Seventies with British League Division Two Riders. British League Division One was strong enough to furnish full International Teams with Riders of International Class still on the periphery. THAT is how good we were.

 

For these reasons I conclude that the British League Division One Teams were definitely stronger than the Elite League Teams have been for a very long time.

[stratton]

The bigger the league, the easier it is and the more 'top riders' there appear to be.

 

It's very simple. 8 teams, you have 8 no 1's. 8 no 2's etc. 20 teams, you have 20 no 1's 20 no 2's. And so on. REGARDLESS of the strength of the leagues.

 

The British League in the 70's had more of the worlds top riders in it.. however, its still arguable whether the teams were that much stronger than even current EL teams (although the fast track has blurred that somewhat)... due to their being less teams in the EL now.

 

The British League in the 70's is nowhere near as strong as the top leagues in Sweden and Poland are now.. but again, that's primarily due to the number of teams.

 

The overall standard of riders is around the same. Waihekeaces has already demonstrated this, or do you believe Sidney that Peter Carr, Paul Thorp etc were better than Freddie Lindgren?

Wow we got there in the end,forget your mumbo/ jumbo the 70s had more top class riders in it thats what i thought thanks WItcher.

[waiheke1]

Not what he said. He said the 70s BL, not the 70s. That's a significant difference.

[BWitcher]

Wow we got there in the end,forget your mumbo/ jumbo the 70s had more top class riders in it thats what i thought thanks WItcher.

 

No, not what I said.

 

Still you haven't answered my question have you.. quite simply because you can't Sidney.

 

There has been no mumbo jumbo from me, I have been quite clear in what I have said and its backed up by facts, not make believe.

 

You however have constantly contradicted yourself.

For what it is worth - I would say that the Teams in the Seventies were a lot stronger than the Elite League nowadays - and I was around then.

 

My reasoning is that most Teams in the British League had at least two, and sometimes three Heat Leaders of International standing, that number nowadays is down to about one (unless you are Poole).

 

We also now have some Riders in the Premier League riding for Great Britain in full Internationals regularly, which rarely happened the Seventies with British League Division Two Riders. British League Division One was strong enough to furnish full International Teams with Riders of International Class still on the periphery. THAT is how good we were.

 

For these reasons I conclude that the British League Division One Teams were definitely stronger than the Elite League Teams have been for a very long time.

 

It's not been the debate, as the EL has been gradually weakened for a number of years now.

 

However, again you're falling into the old trap of, the more teams there are, the more it appears there are top riders. It's simple maths.

 

Take someone like Troy Batchelor. He'd be a 10pt+ heat leader under the 70's format.

 

As for your point regarding 'full' internationals, I would estimate around 75% of the top 5's of the Elite League last season are full international riders. I highly doubt the figure was higher in the 70's and if anything it is almost certainly lower... so again, your line of argument is flawed.

 

Once again it comes back to the fact that it was a bigger league, with an easier format, so there will be a lot more higher averaged riders.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BWitcher

[The White Knight]

 

No, not what I said.

 

Still you haven't answered my question have you.. quite simply because you can't Sidney.

 

There has been no mumbo jumbo from me, I have been quite clear in what I have said and its backed up by facts, not make believe.

 

You however have constantly contradicted yourself.

 

It's not been the debate, as the EL has been gradually weakened for a number of years now.

 

However, again you're falling into the old trap of, the more teams there are, the more it appears there are top riders. It's simple maths.

 

Take someone like Troy Batchelor. He'd be a 10pt+ heat leader under the 70's format.

 

As for your point regarding 'full' internationals, I would estimate around 75% of the top 5's of the Elite League last season are full international riders. I highly doubt the figure was higher in the 70's and if anything it is almost certainly lower... so again, your line of argument is flawed.

 

Once again it comes back to the fact that it was a bigger league, with an easier format, so there will be a lot more higher averaged riders.

What do we (Great Britain) win these days? Answer:- NOWT!!!

 

What did we (Great Britain) win in the '70s? Answer:- Just about everything at one time or another.

 

My argument stands.

 

Q.E.D.

[BWitcher]

What do we (Great Britain) win these days? Answer:- NOWT!!!

 

What did we (Great Britain) win in the '70s? Answer:- Just about everything at one time or another.

 

My argument stands.

 

Q.E.D.

 

That's not your argument though WK... you've just come up with a new one after I've shown your previous one to be false.

 

Although of course, we did have the World Champion last year.. How many world Champs did we have in the 70's? More than 1 or...

 

Seriously though, that is an entirely different argument and the roots of it lie in the change of the then National League in my opinion.

Edited December 22, 2014 by BWitcher

[customhouseregular]

For what it is worth - I would say that the Teams in the Seventies were a lot stronger than the Elite League nowadays - and I was around then.

 

My reasoning is that most Teams in the British League had at least two, and sometimes three Heat Leaders of International standing, that number nowadays is down to about one (unless you are Poole).

 

We also now have some Riders in the Premier League riding for Great Britain in full Internationals regularly, which rarely happened the Seventies with British League Division Two Riders. British League Division One was strong enough to furnish full International Teams with Riders of International Class still on the periphery. THAT is how good we were.

 

For these reasons I conclude that the British League Division One Teams were definitely stronger than the Elite League Teams have been for a very long time.

Spot on WK.

[BWitcher]

Spot on WK.

 

Except I've already demonstrated it wasn't.. "Spot on"

[waiheke1]

Gb/england was much stronger in the 70s - thats ubdisputed

the bl was stronger thsn the current el - it had more of the worlds top riders for sure, albeit spread over twice the number of teams, but overall I'd agree with this statement, with the rider that its relative to world standards

however, the original statement from sid was that there were more top class riders in the 70s/80s than there sre today. That I've yet to see any genuine argument presented for, and irs definitely not a view I agree with.

[BWitcher]

You have it spot on Waiheke for sure.

 

More of the worlds top riders rode in the BL as it was then compared to the current EL. The overall teams weren't as strong as appeared as they were spread over more teams as you point out.

 

The BL of the 70's teams are nowhere near the strength of the teams in the Polish and Swedish top leagues.. again this is simply due to the number of teams in the league.

Edited December 23, 2014 by BWitcher

[The White Knight]

You have it spot on Waiheke for sure.

 

More of the worlds top riders rode in the BL as it was then compared to the current EL. The overall teams weren't as strong as appeared as they were spread over more teams as you point out.

 

The BL of the 70's teams are nowhere near the strength of the teams in the Polish and Swedish top leagues.. again this is simply due to the number of teams in the league.

Forgive me - I thought the discussion was on the British/Elite League - not Sweden and Poland........................

[BWitcher]

Forgive me - I thought the discussion was on the British/Elite League - not Sweden and Poland........................

 

The discussion was Sidney claiming that the standard of rider was higher in the 70's than now. He then tried to throw in the Elite League to cover up the inadequacies of his argument and to deflect from questions he couldn't answer.

[waiheke1]

I think Carter was certainly the best visiting rider I saw at Hyde Road...until Gundersen maybe.....firstly it was Olsen, then Carter came along, then Gundersen.....they were definitely the best 3 visitors to Hyde Road in their eras in my view.

 

 

I missed the 70s, so only saw Olsen when he wa spast his peak - though still ecall him nailing a couple of unstoppable maximums. Didn'y see Briggs ride Hyde Rd, but given he won 6 straight BLRC there, perhaps he qualifies as the greatest ever around the circuit?

In terms of the 80s, the best two riders around Hyde Rd for me were Morton and Carter. Carter had two BLRC (and could have been three but for the flag incident in 80), to Mort's one. Carter I imagine must have averaged close to 11, Mort I imagine over the same period may have been closer to 10.5. Conversely, Mort was track record holder, and beat Carter 2-0 in the only golden helmet match race I saw between them. The closest I ever saw Carter to having a bad meeting at Hyde Rd was his final appearance there ina test vs Denmark, scored 8 from his first three rides, but then fell in his next two (both broken footrests I seem to recall). For me without a doubt the best visting rider of my era.

Behind those two I would have Gundersen and Nielsen. Gindersen was a true Hyde Rd specialist, along with Carter the rider I most feared. Nielsen was nigh on unbeatable around Hyde Rd in the latter years of it's existence, I suspect largely because he was pretty much unbeatable on any track at that point!

Behind those two, I'd have S Moran and Penhall. Shooey was another Belle Vue specialist, though I don't recall him ever winning a major meeting there, or scoring a maximum - but conversely, don't recall him ever scoring less than double figures on BLRC night, and he always looked class. Penhall wasn't so much a specialist, just a true class rider who could ride rpretty much any track well.

After those two I'd have two home track riders, Larry Ross and Peter Collins, who behind Mort were clearly the next best Aces riders of my era( to clarify, 81-87, so I missed PC's peak years). Both consistently excellent around Hyde Rd in the BL, and both with remarkable BLRC records (don't believe either ever cored less than double digits there) - though Larry's BLRC appearances actually all occurred before my ime, and in Dons' colours.

[arnieg]

Most of that riders in that era are billed as being better than they were.

 

Had the current format existed I can absolutely GUARANTEE you that many of them you wouldn't have thought anywhere near as highly.

 

The simple facts are the top riders in each team didn't race each other very much, there was no Heat 13 and 15, you rarely saw them get beat and their status of being stars was cemented.

 

I'm far from saying they weren't good riders, because they were but in all eras you always have 2 or 3 riders who stand out from the rest.

The dramatic drop in leading averages following the introduction of fixed gate positions (also in the 80s ) is another factor that strengthens this argument.

[waiheke1]

The dramatic drop in leading averages following the introduction of fixed gate positions (also in the 80s ) is another factor that strengthens this argument.

from memory that was intoduced the same season (88?) as the nominated heat 15?

[stratton]

I missed the 70s, so only saw Olsen when he wa spast his peak - though still ecall him nailing a couple of unstoppable maximums. Didn'y see Briggs ride Hyde Rd, but given he won 6 straight BLRC there, perhaps he qualifies as the greatest ever around the circuit?

In terms of the 80s, the best two riders around Hyde Rd for me were Morton and Carter. Carter had two BLRC (and could have been three but for the flag incident in 80), to Mort's one. Carter I imagine must have averaged close to 11, Mort I imagine over the same period may have been closer to 10.5. Conversely, Mort was track record holder, and beat Carter 2-0 in the only golden helmet match race I saw between them. The closest I ever saw Carter to having a bad meeting at Hyde Rd was his final appearance there ina test vs Denmark, scored 8 from his first three rides, but then fell in his next two (both broken footrests I seem to recall). For me without a doubt the best visting rider of my era.

Behind those two I would have Gundersen and Nielsen. Gindersen was a true Hyde Rd specialist, along with Carter the rider I most feared. Nielsen was nigh on unbeatable around Hyde Rd in the latter years of it's existence, I suspect largely because he was pretty much unbeatable on any track at that point!

Behind those two, I'd have S Moran and Penhall. Shooey was another Belle Vue specialist, though I don't recall him ever winning a major meeting there, or scoring a maximum - but conversely, don't recall him ever scoring less than double figures on BLRC night, and he always looked class. Penhall wasn't so much a specialist, just a true class rider who could ride rpretty much any track well.

After those two I'd have two home track riders, Larry Ross and Peter Collins, who behind Mort were clearly the next best Aces riders of my era( to clarify, 81-87, so I missed PC's peak years). Both consistently excellent around Hyde Rd in the BL, and both with remarkable BLRC records (don't believe either ever cored less than double digits there) - though Larry's BLRC appearances actually all occurred before my ime, and in Dons' colours.

Carter averaged nearly 11 but it was easier then wasn't it ! no i am only joking!.Briggs,Mauger,Olsen,Collins with Mort,Carter,Gundersen,in the next lot.I often thought what a no1 Carter could of been at Hyde Rd he loved the place.Nielsen took a number of years to master the place he often rode the line in his earlier years.At league level also E.Boocock,Crump,Ashby,Airey should be mentioned they had decent records at Hyde rd.

[EnglishRoundabout]

Haven't read the whole thread but I watched most of the 70's at Swindon, following the team home and away. I took a 20 year break from the sport before returning in 2006.

 

The things I noticed most were riders not shutting off entering the bends and the lack of full maximums from teams number one riders. Nowadays the number ones do seem to get beaten more often by second strings than they were back in the 70's.