Kenny Carter Dvd.

[moxey63]

 

Well they haven't counted as a ride or in the averages since I have been following speedway, which was from around 1985.

 

Nor is it anyway possible that Gundersen suffered '40 tape exclusions' but still averaged over 9 as has been claimed if they did count.

 

Not sure how many matches that year, but based upon 36 matches.. 36 x 4 is 144 rides... 40 of those are 0 from his exclusions... even if he won the other 104 rides.. his average would only be 8.67.... and lets face it, he didn't win them all did he.

 

Gundersen, it was reported, suffered something like 40 tape exclusions in 1984... in his 50-odd matches for the Heathens and open meetings.

 

My sins... I am only reporting it how it was reported, before, and with my whole respect, you actually arrived on the scene but seem an expert on the era, barring being unaware tape exclusions counted as a ride.

Edited December 16, 2014 by moxey63

[BWitcher]

 

Gundersen, it was reported, suffered something like 40 tape exclusions in 1984... in his 50-odd matches for the Heathens and open meetings.

 

My sins... I am only reporting it how it was reported, before, and with my whole respect, you actually arrived on the scene but seem an expert on the era, barring being unaware tape exclusions counted as a ride.

 

It's irrelevant when I 'arrived' on the scene. It was actually 1984 I first started attending regularly when Wolverhampton re-opened.

 

Do you know when the rule was changed? Not looking to start an argument here, genuinely interested and more than happy to learn!

 

The 40 exclusions makes more sense now you are including extra meetings.. open meetings of course will certainly not have effected his average.

 

Gundersen had 43 meetings for Cradley, including challenges in 1984 averaging 9.54.

 

In the league he had 24 meetings averaging 9.21. That's purely league, not including League Cup meets which likely counted towards averages?

Edited December 16, 2014 by BWitcher

[Leicester Hunter]

 

Do you know when the rule was changed?

 

It must have been at the end of 1983 to coincide with the introduction of the new starting procedure for 1984. As far as I'm aware, until then, a tapes exclusion was included in a riders average calculation, but a time exclusion wasn't, primarily because they had come under 'starters orders', that is, the green light illumination.

 

Another factor probably being considered too was the 'two ride minimum' rule which applied to reserves, but not riders in the main body of the team. Certainly prior to 1980, a rider programmed between No's 1-5 did not have to take an outing at all if the team manager wished, but a reserve had to make two starts. On more than one occasion I witnessed teams at British League level who turned up with one good reserve and one virtually out of a training school who surprise, surprise, went through the tapes second time out and was replaced by the good reserve and it was all in the rules. Taking the tapes exclusions out of the calculations closed another loophole which was exploited by more astute team managers. The three ride minimum rule introduced for the 1985 season at British League level only further tightened up on that.

 

That's purely my interpretation btw, but it makes sense to do it that way.

[BWitcher]

Thanks Leicester Hunter, that makes perfect sense.

 

The season we are discussing though is 1984 when the starting rules changed.. perhaps they changed the rules on the averages at the end of that season? Then what Moxey is saying regarding Gundersen would make sense.

[fatface]

I used to love watching Carter but in World finals he used to have a good first 3 rides then implode.

A theory I've heard before, but it can only be based on looking at the raw figures and no more. An engine failure and a controversial exclusion (now where's that can of worms?) undid him for the first two finals. In 83, admittedly he wasn't as sharp as he was the previous two seasons. But I think everyone knew the game was up pretty early doors in that final. They might as well have engraved the trophy the night before. Kenny's rather comical interview on ITV from that final reveals much about how he felt about proceedings.

 

But as for 81 and 82, he was at least the second best rider in both finals. In my opinion, he was very unlucky not to mount the rostrum at least once.

[ProperSport]

It is a superb DVD indeed as is Defunct Tracks IMO ..some grainy footage and quite a bit of the Zoo at Hyde Rd but some really great stuff - Rochdale looked cold watching it on Tele !!!!

[stratton]

A theory I've heard before, but it can only be based on looking at the raw figures and no more. An engine failure and a controversial exclusion (now where's that can of worms?) undid him for the first two finals. In 83, admittedly he wasn't as sharp as he was the previous two seasons. But I think everyone knew the game was up pretty early doors in that final. They might as well have engraved the trophy the night before. Kenny's rather comical interview on ITV from that final reveals much about how he felt about proceedings.

But as for 81 and 82, he was at least the second best rider in both finals. In my opinion, he was very unlucky not to mount the rostrum at least once.

I have always believed if Carter,Lee,Sanders,Sigalos had not left the scene the two danes would never of won seven titles between them also bearing in mind also Knudsen was robbed in 86. Edited December 17, 2014 by sidney

[Gavan]

I have always believed if Carter,Lee,Sanders,Sigalos had not left the scene the two danes would never of won seven titles between them also bearing in mind also Knudsen was robbed in 86.

the Danes would have had the measure of the 2 Brits I think. Sanders may have nicked one but Sigalos ankle injury certainly robbed him. Watch you tube footage of him in a run off against Nielsen lining him up and passing him easily. Carter wouldn't have ever been champion and I think by 1985 Lee's days were over at top level

[waiheke1]

But as for 81 and 82, he was at least the second best rider in both finals. In my opinion, he was very unlucky not to mount the rostrum at least once.

agree with the rest of your post, but not this.

In 81 penhall was clearly the best rider on the night, followed I would say by jessup. A toss up between carter and gundersen as to who was 3rd best.

in 82 I think its hard to call between penhall, kc and les collins as to who was the best rider on the night - argument could go either way.

the Danes would have had the measure of the 2 Brits I think. Sanders may have nicked one but Sigalos ankle injury certainly robbed him. Watch you tube footage of him in a run off against Nielsen lining him up and passing him easily. Carter wouldn't have ever been champion and I think by 1985 Lee's days were over at top level

disagree. Carter I think would have won in 85 if not for injury. Lee was still only 23 at his last world final - had he not gone off the rsils he would have been a force for another decade. Sigslos was good enough to be world champ, and of course penhall could (would?) have won more titles. The only one I dont think would have impactrd on the danes dominance was sanders - excellent rider, but to me never really looked likr being a world champ - the only truly dominant display on a major occsion I recsll from him was the 83 pairs finsl - and of course his fsll denied him a richly deserved gold medal.

Thanks Leicester Hunter, that makes perfect sense.

 

The season we are discussing though is 1984 when the starting rules changed.. perhaps they changed the rules on the averages at the end of that season? Then what Moxey is saying regarding Gundersen would make sense.

definitely they were included in the averages in 84 - its the reason eric dropped around a point and a half off his average.

I actually thought they were still included in averages through at least til 87 - and am pretty sure tape exclusuons counted as a "ride" for the 3 ride minimum - but I don't have any evidence to support this, just my recollection.

[Bruiser McHuge]

A tapes exclusion always counted as a ride and 0 points on a riders average...no idea when that changed but it was definitely still in existence in that Gundersen year..it was also used as a tactical aid to get an off form rider's ride out of the way

 

As for Carter...I think he had had his chance of being World Champ when he died....I was convinced he would be around 81 to 83 or so but I think his time had gone in many ways, possibly due to his injuries and the total emergence of Gundersen and Nielsen...I certainly don't think he'd have won in 85 and he didn't look quite the same rider to me by then as in 81 and 82 in particular...

We will never know but I just don't think he'd have gone on and won one.

[stratton]

A tapes exclusion always counted as a ride and 0 points on a riders average...no idea when that changed but it was definitely still in existence in that Gundersen year..it was also used as a tactical aid to get an off form rider's ride out of the way

As for Carter...I think he had had his chance of being World Champ when he died....I was convinced he would be around 81 to 83 or so but I think his time had gone in many ways, possibly due to his injuries and the total emergence of Gundersen and Nielsen...I certainly don't think he'd have won in 85 and he didn't look quite the same rider to me by then as in 81 and 82 in particular...

We will never know but I just don't think he'd have gone on and won one.

I actually think we think that Nielsen/Gundersen were better than they were, great riders dont get me wrong they did it and are in the roll of honour but Carter in 85 certainly could of won it.Saying that i don't think he was as good at Odsal Bradford than he was at the shay.NIelsen/Gundersen were great riders but i think thing's landed in there lap a bit over a period going up to Jan o and Sam/and potentially double champion Jonsson.

[The White Knight]

I actually think we think that Nielsen/Gundersen were better than they were, great riders dont get me wrong they did it and are in the roll of honour but Carter in 85 certainly could of won it.Saying that i don't think he was as good at Odsal Bradford than he was at the shay.NIelsen/Gundersen were great riders but i think thing's landed in there lap a bit over a period going up to Jan o and Sam/and potentially double champion Jonsson.

Personally, I take an unfashionable view. I don't believe that Carter was anywhere near as good as Gundersen and Nielsen. You need a cool head to be World Champion and that part of Carter was lacking.

 

Awaits flak.

[Gavan]

I actually think we think that Nielsen/Gundersen were better than they were, great riders dont get me wrong they did it and are in the roll of honour but Carter in 85 certainly could of won it.Saying that i don't think he was as good at Odsal Bradford than he was at the shay.NIelsen/Gundersen were great riders but i think thing's landed in there lap a bit over a period going up to Jan o and Sam/and potentially double champion Jonsson.

Wow thats and incredibly bold statement both were phenomenal from 1984 -89 when Erik suffered his accident then Hans carried on up until the mid 90's

Never Nielsens biggest fan much preferred Erik but there is no getting away from just how good both were. If Erik hasnt had suffered his accident he also would have carried on with Hans dominating for more years.

 

Two absolute legends of the shale and Carter, as good as he was, cant be mentioned in the same breath when talking about top riers in the sport

[moxey63]

Carter needed his tunnel-vision way to remain successful and reminds me a little of Nicki Pedersen because of this.

 

A brilliant crowd-puller, Carter's last meeting, if I recall, saw him struggle in the meeting and only win a run-off to navigate a world semi at his home track. Maybe that memory tarnishes what he achieved as a speedway rider alone.

 

He clearly had off-track problems and seemed less hungry on it.

[customhouseregular]

I can't agree that Nielsen and Gundersen were over-rated or that we think they were better than they were. I'm also sure Carter had it in him to win the title, though sadly events prevented us from ever knowing. None the less, I thought he was great.

[stratton]

I can't agree that Nielsen and Gundersen were over-rated or that we think they were better than they were. I'm also sure Carter had it in him to win the title, though sadly events prevented us from ever knowing. None the less, I thought he was great.

Not overated no way, i believe they were both great riders legends both of them Nielsen/Gundo my point really was that decade really opened up for them.In my mind up to 83 Lee,Carter,Sigalos,Sanders(who had really upped his game)had all decent head to head records against them both within three and a bit years all of them were gone.I loved watching Gundersen a great rider,always supported him to beat NIelsen Nielsen though was some rider and i was wrong about him he has to be in the all time best six riders of all time. Edited December 21, 2014 by sidney

[BWitcher]

Most of that riders in that era are billed as being better than they were.

 

Had the current format existed I can absolutely GUARANTEE you that many of them you wouldn't have thought anywhere near as highly.

 

The simple facts are the top riders in each team didn't race each other very much, there was no Heat 13 and 15, you rarely saw them get beat and their status of being stars was cemented.

 

I'm far from saying they weren't good riders, because they were but in all eras you always have 2 or 3 riders who stand out from the rest.

[stratton]

Most of that riders in that era are billed as being better than they were.

 

Had the current format existed I can absolutely GUARANTEE you that many of them you wouldn't have thought anywhere near as highly.

 

The simple facts are the top riders in each team didn't race each other very much, there was no Heat 13 and 15, you rarely saw them get beat and their status of being stars was cemented.

 

I'm far from saying they weren't good riders, because they were but in all eras you always have 2 or 3 riders who stand out from the rest.

Those great riders named believe me would of been great in any era,the same with Craven,Briggs,Mauger,Moore,Fundin (ect).Thinking about it now god Nielsen would of had a field day in our inferior EL product whatever the format.

[BWitcher]

Those great riders named believe me would of been great in any era,the same with Craven,Briggs,Mauger,Moore,Fundin (ect).Thinking about it now god Nielsen would of had a field day in our inferior EL product whatever the format.

 

Nielsen, Gundersen, Craven, Briggs, Moore, Fundin etc were all time great riders.

 

Kenny Carter, Billy Sanders were not.

 

The inferior EL is irrelevant, although Nielsen would still not have achieved as high an average in it as he did most seasons in the old format.

 

A more applicable comparison is the Polish or Swedish League.

[E I Addio]

Most of that riders in that era are billed as being better than they were.

 

Had the current format existed I can absolutely GUARANTEE you that many of them you wouldn't have thought anywhere near as highly.

 

The simple facts are the top riders in each team didn't race each other very much, there was no Heat 13 and 15, you rarely saw them get beat and their status of being stars was cemented.

 

I'm far from saying they weren't good riders, because they were but in all eras you always have 2 or 3 riders who stand out from the rest.

 

That is so true. One of the reasons the EL appears to be weaker than it actually is, is that the top stars get beaten more often by each other. The other thing is that modern engines are so sensitive to getting the, set up dead right that the difference between the top men and the also rans is narrower than it used to be. If Gundersen etc were riding today they would still be very good but would have to work much harder to stay at the top.