Suggested One-off World Final Return

[Guest]

On the permise of a return to a one-off world final, how could qualifying rounds and the actual qualification system to find the finalists be established?

[waiheke1]

National qualifying rounds.

Four quarter finals (overseas final, nordic final, two continental semi final).

Inter continental final and continentsl final with 8 from each to the final.

Host nation guaranteed one final berth (if didnt qualify, top placed in qualifying meeting through at expense of 8th place).

[Guest]

National qualifying rounds.

Four quarter finals (overseas final, nordic final, two continental semi final).

Inter continental final and continentsl final with 8 from each to the final.

Host nation guaranteed one final berth (if didnt qualify, top placed in qualifying meeting through at expense of 8th place).

 

Under the format you mention, would meetings in the UK be restricted to British riders only? Also, as there is a prevalent thought that every speedway rider should have an opportunity to participate in the world championship, how would the progression be for British riders through the various divisions - National League, Premier League and Elite League.

Ther could also be complexities in regard to riders in the USA, Canada and Argentina? How will they be taken into the qualification system? When would their qualifying rounds take place and what further progression stages would there be for them?

Additionally, it would be nice to sort out the complexities for qualifying stages from Australia and New Zealand.

[waiheke1]

British riders I'd imagine you would have as per the 80s, with qualifying rounds, semis and final.

Australia I'd imagine the aussie championship in jan would be the qualifier, ditto nz (who I would see getting just one slot in the overseas final). Had given no thought to Canada or argentina tbh - do either have any riders of sufficient merit? Possibly one slot in the overseas final, but personally I dont believe it that important that EVERY rider in the world has a chance to participate - the top 150 or so I think is fine.

id imagine the overseas final would always be held in Britain, with the ic final rotating between britsin denmark and sweden.

[Guest]

British riders I'd imagine you would have as per the 80s, with qualifying rounds, semis and final.

Australia I'd imagine the aussie championship in jan would be the qualifier, ditto nz (who I would see getting just one slot in the overseas final). Had given no thought to Canada or argentina tbh - do either have any riders of sufficient merit? Possibly one slot in the overseas final, but personally I dont believe it that important that EVERY rider in the world has a chance to participate - the top 150 or so I think is fine.

id imagine the overseas final would always be held in Britain, with the ic final rotating between britsin denmark and sweden.

 

Elsewhere - not in the current thread - I have read that every rider should have the opportunity to become world champion. While on this point, there is some sound comment in your thread, but I fear that already possible exclusions are beginning to appear in regard to qualification e.g places like Canada, Argentina and of course minor European countries like Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania as examples. What about South Africa - where would they fit in?

And more importantly, how will Russian and Ukrainian riders be brought into the world championship qualification mainstream?

A further point that also needs addressing based on your excellent comment is that "the top 150 riders" in the world should take part. How would such a rating list be determined?

Edited December 13, 2014 by Guest

[waiheke1]

Not everyone agrees that every rider in the world needs to be included. None of the old world finals did.

most of the countries you mention would go through the continental quslifiers, as they did historically.

south africa as far as im aware dont have any riders of anywhere near top standard, so like canada may miss out. I beleve mike ferreira of zimbabwe used to go through the British rounds so maybe that would be an option.

150 isnt meant to be definitive. If there was a rider roughly in this range, then there should be an attempt to ensure that his country had at least one spot in the quarter finals.

Would be down to individual governing bodies how their national qualifications worked.

[Split]

Quote: "South Africa as far as I'm aware don't have any riders of anywhere near top standard."

 

Sadly that is true but there might be another Henry Long or Doug Davies coming through. Both were world finalists with Henry Long coming 7th in 1952. Doug Davies rode for the team I supported back in the late 50's - early 60's - New Cross. Since moving to South Africa I've never bumped into him.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I think the fundamental principle of an annual World Championship is that there should be as wide a chance as possible opportunity for competitors in that sport to have a chance in that year. The current SGP system is flawed in the main because its entrance is so severely restricted (hence how so very gradually it's changed over the years) and the line up is determined on performance/qualification from the year before.

[HenryW]

I think the fundamental principle of an annual World Championship is that there should be as wide a chance as possible opportunity for competitors in that sport to have a chance in that year.

Is that really true?

Does this happen in many other sports?

I am genuinely interested to know of what other sports have a qualification system in the same year as the World Champion is decided as none of the sports that I follow do this.

 

The current SGP system is flawed in the main because its entrance is so severely restricted (hence how so very gradually it's changed over the years) and the line up is determined on performance/qualification from the year before.

I am honestly not sure that the qualification being done the year before makes all that much difference but I do agree that only 15 permanent riders in the series is too few. During the few years where 22 permanent riders were included in the series it seemed to be better to me. The format of the actual meetings might not have been ideal but the extra 7 places being available made a big difference, not to mention the extra wildcard being available each round.

[norbold]

Is that really true?

Does this happen in many other sports?

I am genuinely interested to know of what other sports have a qualification system in the same year as the World Champion is decided as none of the sports that I follow do this.

 

 

Snooker. Although the automatic qualification for the finals is decided on the previous year's rankings, the qualification for the other places goes on during the same year. And I believe even the automatic places based on the previous year is being seriously curtailed now.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Is that really true?

Does this happen in many other sports?

I am genuinely interested to know of what other sports have a qualification system in the same year as the World Champion is decided as none of the sports that I follow do this.

Well Speedway used to and look at the difference it made.

John Louis turned from 'Scrambling'to Speedway aged 28 in 1970 in the old Second Division - in 1972 he was fifth in the World Final. Michael Lee made his debut as a 16 year old in the NNL in 1975 and was 4th. in the World Final in 1977.

Such fast progress to the top is now a physical impossibility - and that's what's so wrong about the modern version of the World Championship.

[Guest]

Well Speedway used to and look at the difference it made.

John Louis turned from 'Scrambling'to Speedway aged 28 in 1970 in the old Second Division - in 1972 he was fifth in the World Final. Michael Lee made his debut as a 16 year old in the NNL in 1975 and was 4th. in the World Final in 1977.

Such fast progress to the top is now a physical impossibility - and that's what's so wrong about the modern version of the World Championship.

 

Very interesting comment. How many non-British riders had their careers boosted thanks to the old world championship structure I wonder?

[HenryW]

Well Speedway used to and look at the difference it made.

John Louis turned from 'Scrambling'to Speedway aged 28 in 1970 in the old Second Division - in 1972 he was fifth in the World Final. Michael Lee made his debut as a 16 year old in the NNL in 1975 and was 4th. in the World Final in 1977.

Such fast progress to the top is now a physical impossibility - and that's what's so wrong about the modern version of the World Championship.

So for the examples that you gave, these riders would now have to wait a further 7 months to make their full World Championship debut as they would have contested the Grand Prix Challenge at the end of the year rather than the World Final. Not exactly a mammoth wait in the grand scheme of things.

 

Having said that, no-one has managed to get to the top end of the GP challenge quite so quickly after the start of their career so either there are no riders coming through that are of the calibre of Louis and Lee or the rest of the riders are of a higher standard these days and it isn't so easy to break through to the top level.

[The White Knight]

I think the fundamental principle of an annual World Championship is that there should be as wide a chance as possible opportunity for competitors in that sport to have a chance in that year. The current SGP system is flawed in the main because its entrance is so severely restricted (hence how so very gradually it's changed over the years) and the line up is determined on performance/qualification from the year before.

Well said Sir!!.

 

Well Speedway used to and look at the difference it made.

John Louis turned from 'Scrambling'to Speedway aged 28 in 1970 in the old Second Division - in 1972 he was fifth in the World Final. Michael Lee made his debut as a 16 year old in the NNL in 1975 and was 4th. in the World Final in 1977.

Such fast progress to the top is now a physical impossibility - and that's what's so wrong about the modern version of the World Championship.

............. and again - Well said.

 

So for the examples that you gave, these riders would now have to wait a further 7 months to make their full World Championship debut as they would have contested the Grand Prix Challenge at the end of the year rather than the World Final. Not exactly a mammoth wait in the grand scheme of things.

 

Having said that, no-one has managed to get to the top end of the GP challenge quite so quickly after the start of their career so either there are no riders coming through that are of the calibre of Louis and Lee or the rest of the riders are of a higher standard these days and it isn't so easy to break through to the top level.

Well I, for one, do not think that the Riders are of a "higher standard these days". :nono:

[waiheke1]

Well Speedway used to and look at the difference it made.

John Louis turned from 'Scrambling'to Speedway aged 28 in 1970 in the old Second Division - in 1972 he was fifth in the World Final. Michael Lee made his debut as a 16 year old in the NNL in 1975 and was 4th. in the World Final in 1977.

Such fast progress to the top is now a physical impossibility - and that's what's so wrong about the modern version of the World Championship.

 

we've had this debate before. Firstly, I'm not sure Mike Lee is good as an example, because simply he was, in the nicest possible way, a freak - probably the most naturally gifted rider of all time - and as such not representative of a general situation.

BUT... if Robert Lambert as a 16 year old this year had averaged 9 in the Elite league as Lee did in 1976 in the British League, he would 100% without a doubt have been included in the 2015 GP series.

Similarly,had the GP series been in effect in the 70s, Lee would have had a very good shot of ghaving been included in the 77 series, - if not it would have been a season later in 78. There's an argument of course that it would have been better for Lee if success had not come so early.

Note also that Emil finished on the podium of the GP series as a 19 year old, the same age as Lee when he made his first rostrum appearance, and younger than the likes of Peter Collins. And of course, we've seen teenagers such as Zmaralik win one off GPs. So frankly, I don't think your argument stacks up.

[The White Knight]

 

we've had this debate before. Firstly, I'm not sure Mike Lee is good as an example, because simply he was, in the nicest possible way, a freak - probably the most naturally gifted rider of all time - and as such not representative of a general situation.

BUT... if Robert Lambert as a 16 year old this year had averaged 9 in the Elite league as Lee did in 1976 in the British League, he would 100% without a doubt have been included in the 2015 GP series.

Similarly,had the GP series been in effect in the 70s, Lee would have had a very good shot of ghaving been included in the 77 series, - if not it would have been a season later in 78. There's an argument of course that it would have been better for Lee if success had not come so early.

Note also that Emil finished on the podium of the GP series as a 19 year old, the same age as Lee when he made his first rostrum appearance, and younger than the likes of Peter Collins. And of course, we've seen teenagers such as Zmaralik win one off GPs. So frankly, I don't think your argument stacks up.

How many more would have done so - had they had the chance of qualifying?

 

The truth is that nowadays the vast majority of Speedway Riders are denied the chance to be top of the tree in their chosen Sport because of the Selection System used in the GP Series.

Edited December 28, 2014 by The White Knight

[waiheke1]

 

 

Well I, for one, do not think that the Riders are of a "higher standard these days". :nono:

 

I can't think of a single sport which isn't more professional now than in the 70s (in terms of the sportspeople, not the administration!). I'd include speedway in that. The result (in my view) is that the general standard in all sports has risen. In speedway, this would specifically relate to the equipment and fitness of riders which I think are indisputable, and overall ability which is certainly subject to more debate.

Certainly when you get to GP level, riders preparation levels are far superior to in the past - most would have say three bikes specifically for GPS, wheras in the past riders outside the very top echelon would maybe have jut one "special" bike. Overall, I'd say it's harder to make an instant impact than in the past.

Snooker. Although the automatic qualification for the finals is decided on the previous year's rankings, the qualification for the other places goes on during the same year. And I believe even the automatic places based on the previous year is being seriously curtailed now.

the issue with a similar approach for speedway would be that for riders to really compete at the GP level, they need time to prepare and arrange sponsors, plan their schedules etc. If you had the qualifiers for the "other places" at the start of the new season rather than in the previous season, these riders would come in at a serious disadvantage.

To go back to Henry W's query, is there any sport where all qualification happens in the same year as the World final (i.e. no seeding based on prior year perfromances)?

[fatface]

Completely agree with the above post. I think there is often far too much sentimentality over the old system. I have a decent enough grasp of the sport going back to the 1970s and let's be honest, how many great World Finals were there from 1970-1994?

 

Some of the racing in say the last five years of the GP series, particularly from Poland, New Zealand and Sweden has been far superior to much of what we saw in World Finals 70-94.

 

As a side issue. I'm sure there are plenty of sports where it is possible to win a World Championships in your first year. In theory, I could take up the 100m in 2016, run a super fast time, get picked for Team GB and win the Olympic 100m gold. All good in theory, but in reality, utterly impossible. Just as it would be for speedway -such is the high standard of professionalism in elite sport. If a rider is talented enough and highly dedicated, they will get there soon enough.

[BOBBATH]

Ain't gonna happen-I loved the one-off World Final, crazy results because of home track advantage and also it got degraded in later years e.g. Jerzy Szczakiel as World Champ-gimme a break!! Also Fred Williams on home track - gimme a break. If it had been held at Newport in the mid sixties maybe Alby Golden ,Dick Bradley or Peter Vandenberg would have been World Champ. Having said all that I reckon the current system is better but should anyone win it without actually winning a meeting? e.g. Mark Loram.. Anyway I've lost interest to hell with it

[Guest]

Ain't gonna happen-I loved the one-off World Final, crazy results because of home track advantage and also it got degraded in later years e.g. Jerzy Szczakiel as World Champ-gimme a break!! Also Fred Williams on home track - gimme a break. If it had been held at Newport in the mid sixties maybe Alby Golden ,Dick Bradley or Peter Vandenberg would have been World Champ. Having said all that I reckon the current system is better but should anyone win it without actually winning a meeting? e.g. Mark Loram.. Anyway I've lost interest to hell with it

 

 

Suggested One-off World Final Return

I agree with the world championship comment. It isn't going to happen. But find the comment re Jerzy Szackiel not to my liking. Research shows that he was a good class rider - much of the bias agains him IMO stems from the Dave Lanning TV commentary about that world championship. Have you ever checked out Jerzy Szackiel's career as a Polish international rider? Sadly, thanks to Mr Lanning criticism of his world championship is destined to carry on seemingly forever - thanks to Mr Lanning!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Szczakiel

 

Quote::::As a measure of Szczakeil's skill as a rider, between 1971 and 1973 he raced Ivan Mauger 13 times - and won 6, including beating him twice in the 1973 World Final.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Guest