Speedway Riders History And Results.

[The White Knight]

In my day (sound like uncle Albert now), top men were top men. You had your Maugers, Olsens, Collins, all grade A boys... then you had Billy Sanders, Chris Morton, Terry Betts. Indeed, the BLRC used to be a real pride event. It was worth qualifying for, some boys that didn't make it had ridden out of their skins all season, just to be at Belle Vue on those chilly October nights.

 

Fast forward to now... and, as Larry Ross stated recently in the Star, a world champion never scored seven points when he was riding (referring to one of the matches he'd seen while over here last year).

 

It says it all really. All the old boys having long retired, their expected replacements, when they can be bothered committing to Britain, they don't really command the pulling power, the force or presence of 11.74 averages... and can run a last at the drop of a hat. Is this why crowds began declining - the standard of top men in speedway 2015 compares to.. I don't know... perhaps JedWard of the pop world, trying to fill The Beatles' boots?

 

When the sport has sunk this low, all the real stars have left the stage, I laugh at people worrying about all the top stars not wanting to ride here. Speedway has slumbered through decades losing its real class. Maybe it's just coincidence that crowds followed them through the exit doors of time. But, in my view Jason Crump was the last genuine STAR of Elite League racing. I could imagine him attracting an audience, should he ever come back to Britain.

 

The top names, the pulling power of the past decades, nobody has replaced them.. and nobody has replaced the missing fans.

 

Am I making sense today.. or should nurse up my meds?

It makes perfect sense Moxey63.

 

You have no need to fear for your Health.

[Bruiser McHuge]

Riders are no worse now than back then....there is no reason that a top rider is worse than a top rider from back then, and those riders wouldn't have had those averages under current race formats with fixed gate positions and top scorers races etc.....a top rider could take the same gate 4 , 5 or 6 races in one night...they could basically spend a whole night going off one favoured gate, and I saw that happen numerous times..

Now I certainly think that for numerous reasons speedway was a far better sport for league racing back then but comparing averages doesn't mean anything and I certainly don't think the top riders were generally better than today's as riders.

[moxey63]

Scott Nicholls a British champion about seven times as many as Peter Collins, signifies that PC had more competition than Scott has. To me it does anyway.

Edited December 4, 2014 by moxey63

[stratton]

Scott Nicholls a British champion about seven times as many as Peter Collins, signifies that PC had more competition than Scott has. To me it does anyway.

Spot on as a example Belle Vue had Mauger,Sjosten,Wilkinson,Collins, as a top four one year,Ipswich had Louis,Sanders,Davey,Swindon had Briggs,Ashby, alot of sides then had a GENIUNE top two heat leaders.Now they are not there,i agree the top riders now would be on par with the top boys then but then i could name thirty top class heat leaders in class riding in the BL can you now?.I know the averages were inflated then gate positions (ect) but i would say it was harder then ie) because of the track sizes.There were so much variation more challenging i believe on a weekly basis i know i am living in the past but i still believe it is true.Today most people would put Wolves in the top two tracks in the country then that track was nowhere near the top six Hyde Rd,Halifax,Sheffield,Swindon,King's Lynn,Exeter,Wimbledon,Hackney all of those tracks were better in my opinion just shows you the difference between now and then.

[Leicester Hunter]

Scott Nicholls a British champion about seven times as many as Peter Collins, signifies that PC had more competition than Scott has. To me it does anyway.

Yes, that's very true.

 

Consider also that before 1975, the Brits had to contend with the Australasians, riders of the calibre of Mauger, Briggs, Moore, Airey, Boulger, Valentine, Crump and Sanders to name but a few. And when you look at the first all-British Final line up in 1975, you realise how far British Speedway fallen away over the (mainly last few) years.

[The White Knight]

Yes, that's very true.

 

Consider also that before 1975, the Brits had to contend with the Australasians, riders of the calibre of Mauger, Briggs, Moore, Airey, Boulger, Valentine, Crump and Sanders to name but a few. And when you look at the first all-British Final line up in 1975, you realise how far British Speedway fallen away over the (mainly last few) years.

Sadly that is a fact of life I am afraid. :sad:

[moxey63]

Let's not take anything away from the modern boys though... they have to live up to our memories of the 70s, an era that spoiled us.

[norbold]

Now I'm feeling my age, moxey. I was brought up in the 1960s with Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Bjorn Knutson...sigh....

[moxey63]

Now I'm feeling my age, moxey. I was brought up in the 1960s with Ove Fundin, Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Barry Briggs, Bjorn Knutson...sigh....

 

 

I wish I was there for the sixties too, but arrived in time for the seventies. I'd be dead now, if I got all the decades I want from speedway. Then again, I'd not be around now for its sad demise.

[norbold]

I wish I was there for the sixties too, but arrived in time for the seventies. I'd be dead now, if I got all the decades I want from speedway. Then again, I'd not be around now for its sad demise.

Not necessarily. I know someone who was at the first meeting at High Beech in 1928 and he's still going strong. Mind you, he was only 4 months old at the time.

[stratton]

Yes, that's very true.

 

Consider also that before 1975, the Brits had to contend with the Australasians, riders of the calibre of Mauger, Briggs, Moore, Airey, Boulger, Valentine, Crump and Sanders to name but a few. And when you look at the first all-British Final line up in 1975, you realise how far British Speedway fallen away over the (mainly last few) years.

How good was that line up Hunter ?in 75 ending in a classic race one of the best i have ever seen two English legends Wilson and Ashby in a run off for a place in the final.Ray said on his DVD that Martin could of been dirty but he was not that kind of rider a fair sportsman.Before 75 those line ups were ultra strong and at different venues was West Ham a regular venue.? Edited December 4, 2014 by sidney

[norbold]

West Ham closed in 1972.

[Leicester Hunter]

How good was that line up Hunter ?in 75 ending in a classic race one of the best i have ever seen two English legends Wilson and Ashby in a run off for a place in the final.Ray said on his DVD that Martin could of been dirty but he was not that kind of rider a fair sportsman.Before 75 those line ups were ultra strong and at different venues was West Ham a regular venue.?

OK, I've taken this from my copy of John Louis' book 'A Second Look Inside Speedway' published in 1976.

 

John Louis 15

Peter Collins 13

Malcolm Simmons 13 (after a run-off)

Ray Wilson 11 (after a run-off) Those four qualified for the Wembley World Final

Martin Ashby 11 (Reserve at Wembley)

Chris Pusey 10

Tony Davey 9

Gordon Kennett 6

Dave Jessup 6

Doug Wyer 5

Jim McMillan 5

Bob Kilby 5

Chris Morton 5

Dave Morton 3

Alan Wilkinson 2

Carl Glover 1

 

Other good British riders of that time included Nigel Boocock, who was eliminated at Sheffield after a run-off with Carl Glover and Chris Pusey for the last qualifying place and Terry Betts, also eliminated at Sheffield having only scored 5 points. Wolverhampton's George Hunter and Eric Broadbelt of Poole both fell by the wayside at the Leicester semi. And Reg Wilson, who had enjoyed an exceptional early part of the season was incapacitated with a broken leg.

 

It's been said many times that the run-off between Ray Wilson and Martin Ashby was the greatest match race ever. For some reason, PC and Simmo raced for the rostrum positions in the first run-off, leaving Wilson and Ashby to race last of all. The organisers on the night couldn't have made a better call....

Neck and neck for three and a half laps, Crash got past Wilson on the back straight, but kept his inside line round the last two bends. Ray wound it on round the fence and caught Martin literally at the flag. He said later he was lucky Martin was such a fair rider, and that he gave him room to race. With what was at stake, Ray Wilson admitted he wouldn't have been so accommodating....

 

I only attended two or three British Finals at Coventry, but what you got was a packed house, fantastic atmosphere and some great racing. On a Wednesday night, too. Of course, there was no live TV transmission then, merely recorded highlights, either shown on the following Saturday on World of Sport, or on a couple of occasions when the BBC were there, it was shown the same night at around 10.30 on Sportsnight. Happy days....

[stratton]

West Ham closed in 1972.

What i meant Norbold was before Coventry became a regular venue for years since the 70s, Briggs won it in 65,67,69 at West Ham ( a big track)so it was used for a few years.

OK, I've taken this from my copy of John Louis' book 'A Second Look Inside Speedway' published in 1976.

 

John Louis 15

Peter Collins 13

Malcolm Simmons 13 (after a run-off)

Ray Wilson 11 (after a run-off) Those four qualified for the Wembley World Final

Martin Ashby 11 (Reserve at Wembley)

Chris Pusey 10

Tony Davey 9

Gordon Kennett 6

Dave Jessup 6

Doug Wyer 5

Jim McMillan 5

Bob Kilby 5

Chris Morton 5

Dave Morton 3

Alan Wilkinson 2

Carl Glover 1

 

Other good British riders of that time included Nigel Boocock, who was eliminated at Sheffield after a run-off with Carl Glover and Chris Pusey for the last qualifying place and Terry Betts, also eliminated at Sheffield having only scored 5 points. Wolverhampton's George Hunter and Eric Broadbelt of Poole both fell by the wayside at the Leicester semi. And Reg Wilson, who had enjoyed an exceptional early part of the season was incapacitated with a broken leg.

 

It's been said many times that the run-off between Ray Wilson and Martin Ashby was the greatest match race ever. For some reason, PC and Simmo raced for the rostrum positions in the first run-off, leaving Wilson and Ashby to race last of all. The organisers on the night couldn't have made a better call....

Neck and neck for three and a half laps, Crash got past Wilson on the back straight, but kept his inside line round the last two bends. Ray wound it on round the fence and caught Martin literally at the flag. He said later he was lucky Martin was such a fair rider, and that he gave him room to race. With what was at stake, Ray Wilson admitted he wouldn't have been so accommodating....

 

I only attended two or three British Finals at Coventry, but what you got was a packed house, fantastic atmosphere and some great racing. On a Wednesday night, too. Of course, there was no live TV transmission then, merely recorded highlights, either shown on the following Saturday on World of Sport, or on a couple of occasions when the BBC were there, it was shown the same night at around 10.30 on Sportsnight. Happy days....

British Finals in midweek was what made it exciting, just like the Derby at epsom downs i disliked Coventry as a track i always felt they should never have had that meeting.But that meeting there was an occasion,great crowds the track under Olchitree it was prepared great and apart from Malc Holloway being eliminated in 82 i enjoyed every final i went to. Edited December 5, 2014 by sidney

[norbold]

What i meant Norbold was before Coventry became a regular venue for years since the 70s, Briggs won it in 65,67,69 at West Ham ( a big track)so it was used for a few years.British Finals in midweek was what made it exciting.

Ah, right, sorry, sidney. My mistake. Yes West Ham was used in the 1960s, but it moved around a bit. 64 was Wembley; 65 West Ham; 66 Wimbledon; 67 West Ham; 68 Wimbledon; 69 West Ham; 70 West Ham; 71 Coventry

Edited December 5, 2014 by norbold

[moxey63]

Not necessarily. I know someone who was at the first meeting at High Beech in 1928 and he's still going strong. Mind you, he was only 4 months old at the time.

 

 

Go on.. was it Father Christmas!

[iris123]

I

 

Fast forward to now... and, as Larry Ross stated recently in the Star, a world champion never scored seven points when he was riding (referring to one of the matches he'd seen while over here last year).

 

 

Larry is looking through rose tinted glasses a bit there(Don't we all?)as i did see Erik Gundersen have a stinker at Cradley against Hans Nielsens Oxford.Think he only scored 6 or 7 after having beaten Hans in the Golden Helmet.Also never saw Per Jonsson score more than 7 or 8 in the few meetings i saw him ride in.Having said that the speedway was better as a product back then for me,due to the Plough Lane stadium and even Hackney stadium.The atmosphere and i must say the riders.They for me had more character back then.I find myself not caring one iota for most riders these days.That might be down to me though,as i feel much the same for football players as well.Back then i had a lot of respect for players like Billy McNeill and loved the antics of the jokers like Alan Gilzean.......

[norbold]

Go on.. was it Father Christmas!

Er....no...His name is Ken Taylor.

[Guest]

Er....no...His name is Ken Taylor.

I am delighted to hear Ken Taylor is still around...the years and their effect are catching up quickly with some of us oldies!

[Guest compost]

I have been putting together all of my memorabilia of the 1967 Swindon championship side.Are the averages on the speedway riders history and results website accurate ? do they include extra matches challenges (ect).Because some of the averages differ, i usually go for all the official yearbook books and the speedway star for the averages, With the 67 Swindon side i went with the figures in the official history of Swindon speedway book.I also looked for the average of Mauger in 69? i thought it would be 11.74 that was different what figures do any of you go by.?

 

I think that your issues were aimed at the files I'd produced for the Speedway Researcher. Please see below my, slightly edited, email to the Speedway Researcher Administrator :-

 

"Looks like you've pulled most of them, thanks for that. The only ones remaining that I noticed were the complete season files for 1994 and 1995 - they can stay if you wish ?

 

The reason why I wanted them pulled is due to the following British Speedway Forum thread -

 

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=78247

 

He isn't referring to what Steve has produced (Steve doesn't give averages for instance) but my to files.

 

I no longer have an account on that forum so can't reply direct (though I am trying to set something up so I can so you might see a reply there from me - it will be pretty much what I say below).

 

The issue is, I think, with the raw data. The raw data that 'Sidney' is on about is Steve's files from the 60's and 70's.

 

Something I noticed the first time that I viewed them (the earlier files rather than the latter ones) was that there weren't many rider exclusions listed. I suspect that the Speedway Star of the time just didn't report on them. The result is that when you use the meeting reports to try and reverse engineer the averages the averages come out wrong.

 

An easy example is Peter Thompson in 1967 riding for Belle Vue. He rode 4 league matches for the Aces. On Steve's file (and therefore mine) he has stats of 9-6-1. The 'Complete History of the British League' has his stats as 4 matches 8 rides 6 points and 1 bonus. The points and BP match but not the rides. Looking at Steve's file I think the issue comes during the Edinburgh v Belle Vue match on the 17th June. Steve shows Peter having 2 rides (3rd in heat 4 and fell in heat 8). Actually, cross referencing to the 1967 Edinburgh file on the Researcher website IT shows heat 8 having Woodcock in 4th and no mention of Thompson so it is possible that Thompson fell, wasn't excluded but was unable to appear in the re-run. Woodcock could have been the 'supplementary' reserve (teams in 1967 had only one reserve).

 

Regarding 'Sidneys' Ivan Mauger 11.74 issue. I checked Steve's 1969 file against mine meeting by meeting looking at Mauger's scores and found that the number of points and bonus points matched up against 'The Complete History of the British League' and the 'All Time Top Scorers' list in the 1982 Yearbook but that the number of rides taken didn't match. In both comparisons Mauger took 4 more rides based on Steve's file than is reported in the other source (the difference in averages).

 

Now looking though Steve's file I found the following (all League matches) - Hackney v Belle Vue 18th April, Mauger has a 'exc-tapes' in heat 11 Glasgow v Belle Vue 9th May, Mauger has a 'exc-tapes' in heat 9 West Ham v Belle Vue 26th August, Mauger has a 'exc-tapes' in heat 1 Belle Vue v Wolverhampton 27th September, Mauger has an 'exc' in heat 1

 

My understanding, both of how meetings are reported and how Steve reports meetings is that both 'exc' and 'exc-tapes' are exclusions that count as a ride (so they're not, for instance, 2 minute exclusions which don't count as a ride).

 

I cannot see anywhere else where the 4 ride difference comes from.

 

I checked with a number of other riders (Thompson above being one of them) and many (but not all) had a similar result - points and bonus points matched but the number of rides was overstated when compared against, predominantly, 'The Complete History of the British League' - I have very few other sources for this period !

 

It is an inability to reconcile source against 'known knowledge' which is the reason why I asked you to pull the files.

 

TBH this really only applies to Steve's files from 65 on so the files prior to 1965 could have stayed as they are produced (99.9%) from the team files on the Researcher website. However, my experience is that once people start to question one thing then they are no longer prepared to accept, without a great deal of debate, anything else. Hence the request to remove them. Which was a shame as I have been updating them - the update should have made clearer missing data, an increased stats area and included some second half info along with the points (and top places) of home riders at individual meetings.

 

As I say in my preamble to each file, the work I do is best endeavours and to please advise you (the Speedway Researcher) of any issues. The one thing I am not prepared to do is get involved in any slanging matches about the right or wrong of the data - after all I started this project in 1991 and have spent a hell of a lot of time on it.

 

Cheers,

 

PS. My use of 'Official' is in reference to Official competitions. This encompasses League, Cup and National Trophy matches along with League Cup, Britannia Shield, Queens Cup and Premier Trophy matches. It does not include (as they were not as far as I know Officially sanctioned) competitions such as the Gold Cup in the 1970's, the London Cup, The Northern Trophy etc. For most seasons the only 'Official' competitions would be the League and whatever Cup competition was around. My usage would appear to be in line with how 'The Complete History of the British League' reports rider stats BTW."

 

 

The files in question were removed from the Speedway Researcher website (if there are any that have not been them please let me know and I will ask for their removal).

 

I hope this clears things up for you ?

 

PS. It's taken from the date of the initial post to now to sort out an account - thanks (not) to the BSF for all your (non) help. The only external email address listed on the forum doesn't (or didn't) work.