Speedway Riders History And Results.

[stratton]

I have been putting together all of my memorabilia of the 1967 Swindon championship side.Are the averages on the speedway riders history and results website accurate ? do they include extra matches challenges (ect).Because some of the averages differ, i usually go for all the official yearbook books and the speedway star for the averages, With the 67 Swindon side i went with the figures in the official history of Swindon speedway book.I also looked for the average of Mauger in 69? i thought it would be 11.74 that was different what figures do any of you go by.?

[daveallan81]

I'd be taking the information from the history book as read - there can't be much Rob Bamford doesn't know about Swindon and he was always a stickler for accuracy. I believe the website combines all 'official' matches for their figures.

[moxey63]

Speedway's record of keeping records is a shambles. It is left to diehard fans to try and delve into various publications (which were often unreliable) and form some sort of conclusion of things.

 

Having pieced together stats for various yearbooks, I doubt there'll ever be a complete and accurate reference and often anomalies will remain.

 

A professional sport should have its own yearbook, year on year.

 

I've been at matches where even the referee has awarded a wrong place... and I recall a piece about Chris Morton saying he knew for sure he got a third place point in one of the 1973 KOC Final matches, records tell that he was pointless in both!

[BOBBATH]

Hi daveallen81-which history book are you referring to and can it be accessed online. Cheers

[stratton]

I'd be taking the information from the history book as read - there can't be much Rob Bamford doesn't know about Swindon and he was always a stickler for accuracy. I believe the website combines all 'official' matches for their figures.

Totally right about Rob legend i trust him bigtime ,,Dave he is spot on for me and as i have said i took Rob's figures as gospel for the swindon 67 championship side.Also i know it is off the subject a bit Malc Holloway was my favourite rider alongside Briggo and Mike Lee his first season in the 1980 as a full time BL rider he averaged 4.93 the other site said 5.31 a big difference for me. Edited November 28, 2014 by sidney

[daveallan81]

Hi daveallen81-which history book are you referring to and can it be accessed online. Cheers

 

The book Sidney and I are referring to is Robert Bamford's "Swindon Speedway: The Definitive History of the Robins". Not available online as far as I can see.

 

Regarding Holloway's figures, that looks like 1980 BL and KOC combined, although there seems to be an extra bonus point kicking somewhere.

[stratton]

The book Sidney and I are referring to is Robert Bamford's "Swindon Speedway: The Definitive History of the Robins". Not available online as far as I can see.

 

Regarding Holloway's figures, that looks like 1980 BL and KOC combined, although there seems to be an extra bonus point kicking somewhere.

Thanks Dave very much, a 4.93 or 5.31 average is quite a difference but Bamford will do for me . Edited November 28, 2014 by sidney

[steve19620]

Speedway's record of keeping records is a shambles. It is left to diehard fans to try and delve into various publications (which were often unreliable) and form some sort of conclusion of things.

 

Having pieced together stats for various yearbooks, I doubt there'll ever be a complete and accurate reference and often anomalies will remain.

 

A professional sport should have its own yearbook, year on year.

 

I've been at matches where even the referee has awarded a wrong place... and I recall a piece about Chris Morton saying he knew for sure he got a third place point in one of the 1973 KOC Final matches, records tell that he was pointless in both!

I completely agree with Moxey 63 comments.

 

I am responsible for the complete Season files on the Speedway Researcher website from 1965 to 1976. The information for my files are taken from programmes and various magazines (and this forum) to obtain the most accurate details possible, all the official league match point scorers are checked against the end of season averages for accurancy. However, It is exceptionally difficult to verify all meetings for this period due to the passage of time and lack of "official" record keeping. Thank heavens for Bryan Seery who did manage (before computers !) to keep accurate records in the Speedway Star and programmes.

 

Unfortunately, the speedway authorities do not realise (or care) that our great sport has a history and don't appear to "keep" any records relating to previous seasons. The BSPA has finally recognized this and now has a history page on its web page. (hopefully this will develop -but won't rival the Speedway Researcher website).

Edited November 28, 2014 by steve19620

[norbold]

You do an amazing job, steve as does everyone else who compiles figures and records for previous seasons and I for one fully appreciate all the difficulties and effort you go to to try and make them accurate.

 

I agree with everything that has been said about the poor record keeping in the past as I know from painful experience in trying to compile the year by year records for my various books.Although he did a great job with his book, "British Speedway Leagues 1946-1964", it is a shame that Peter Morrish only published the number of points each rider obtained and not the number of rides or even the number of meetings. Still, I suppose he had the same problem everyone here has found.

[stratton]

I completely agree with Moxey 63 comments.

 

I am responsible for the complete Season files on the Speedway Researcher website from 1965 to 1976. The information for my files are taken from programmes and various magazines (and this forum) to obtain the most accurate details possible, all the official league match point scorers are checked against the end of season averages for accurancy. However, It is exceptionally difficult to verify all meetings for this period due to the passage of time and lack of "official" record keeping. Thank heavens for Bryan Seery who did manage (before computers !) to keep accurate records in the Speedway Star and programmes.

 

Unfortunately, the speedway authorities do not realise (or care) that our great sport has a history and don't appear to "keep" any records relating to previous seasons. The BSPA has finally recognized this and now has a history page on its web page. (hopefully this will develop -but won't rival the Speedway Researcher website).

Steve what records do you use and what do you think are the more accurate? also could you help me on a query about Mauger was his 11.74 average deducted somewhat because of a tactical ride or something?.Looking back i think Mauger had two years where he averaged 11.50 the other rider was Hans Nielsen.

[moxey63]

Matt Jackson has done/is doing tremendous work on attempting rider records and biogs. As Steve19620 has said, speedway has failed to really keep records, which is annoying, and "official" yearbook are sporadicly published and the sport really falls by the wayside in terms of how it treats its statistical, history and record-keeping side.

 

Another frustrating thing with speedway, speaking from someone who has tried keeping season records, is that you never know for sure at the start of a season if a yearbook will be published at its end. I am sure many people, sad individuals like me, would attempt to keep records of the current season on a weekly basis instead of relying on someone else doing it.

 

It'll be easier to compile yearbook stats on a weekly basis during he current year than play catch up at the end of year, after having found out no one else is doing one.

 

Peter Oakes has done a few successive yearbooks for recent years, Robert Bamford before him. But there are huge gaps on the shelves of missing seasons. Perhaps Speedway Star could provide some form of section on a website of past years, team aves and scorers - they have been doing the winter reviews forever and the team scorers for about 25 years.

 

I did a yearbook for the 2011 season, when I thought there would not be one printed. But then Peter Oakes went and published one! I felt all the hard work was wasted and it put me off doing another on a weekly basis. By the time you realise a yearbook isn't in the offing from anyone else, another season has gone and the sport's efforts for any credibility (for having a yearbook) has been wasted.

 

I am boring... but I know I am.

Edited November 30, 2014 by moxey63

[stratton]

Matt Jackson has done/is doing tremendous work on attempting rider records and biogs. As Steve19620 has said, speedway has failed to really keep records, which is annoying, and "official" yearbook are sporadicly published and the sport really falls by the wayside in terms of how it treats its statistical, history and record-keeping side.

 

Another frustrating thing with speedway, speaking from someone who has tried keeping season records, is that you never know for sure at the start of a season if a yearbook will be published at its end. I am sure many people, sad individuals like me, would attempt to keep records of the current season on a weekly basis instead of relying on someone else doing it, when they might not.

 

Peter Oakes has done a few successive yearbooks for recent year, Robert Bamford before him. But there are huge gaps on the shelves of missing seasons. Perhaps Speedway Star could provide some form of section on a website of past years, team aves and scorers - they have been doing the winter reviews forever and the team scorers for about 25 years.

 

I did a yearbook for the 2011 season, when I thought there would not be one printed. But then Peter Oakes went and published one! I felt all the hard work was wasted and it put me off doing another on a weekly basis. By the time you realise a yearbook isn't in the offing from anyone else, another season has gone and the sport's efforts for any credibility (for having a yearbook) has been wasted.

 

I am boring... but I know I am.

 

No you are not boring,the stats the history the records are what the present day riders want to aspire to.

[The White Knight]

Matt Jackson has done/is doing tremendous work on attempting rider records and biogs. As Steve19620 has said, speedway has failed to really keep records, which is annoying, and "official" yearbook are sporadicly published and the sport really falls by the wayside in terms of how it treats its statistical, history and record-keeping side.

 

Another frustrating thing with speedway, speaking from someone who has tried keeping season records, is that you never know for sure at the start of a season if a yearbook will be published at its end. I am sure many people, sad individuals like me, would attempt to keep records of the current season on a weekly basis instead of relying on someone else doing it, when they might not.

 

Peter Oakes has done a few successive yearbooks for recent year, Robert Bamford before him. But there are huge gaps on the shelves of missing seasons. Perhaps Speedway Star could provide some form of section on a website of past years, team aves and scorers - they have been doing the winter reviews forever and the team scorers for about 25 years.

 

I did a yearbook for the 2011 season, when I thought there would not be one printed. But then Peter Oakes went and published one! I felt all the hard work was wasted and it put me off doing another on a weekly basis. By the time you realise a yearbook isn't in the offing from anyone else, another season has gone and the sport's efforts for any credibility (for having a yearbook) has been wasted.

 

I am boring... but I know I am.

Also it's Supporters. I know that I like to look at Statistics now and again and if it weren't for Sites like the 'Speedway Researcher' it would be very difficult.

[steve19620]

Hi Sidney

 

The Speedway Star is predominently used when producing the heat results in my Season files. As advised in my earlier e-mail the rider's points scored in league and KO matches ARE checked against the the end of season averages published in the "Star" or in Peter Oakes's History of British League 1965-1990 book. Therefore the points scorers for "official" meetings will be accurate (any errors or queries found in them I would like to know about !). Any differences in the individual riders points against the end of season averages are printed on the last page of the respective season file. When preparing the heat results problems do arise when 1) a 2 mins or tapes exclusion in the published heat results are unreported (this happens quite a lot in the Star), 2) an incorrectly reported 4th rider, it is more difficult to vouch for 4 place finishers (as they score nil points !) and 3) they are non official meetings, such as challenges, individuals, pairs meetings, etc. Unfortunately these records cannot be verified as there is no "official" record to compare against.

 

I would like to think that the files I have produced contain a high degree of accurancy and can be trusted for anyone to look back at, use and reminisce (if they wish).

 

Regarding your query regarding Ivan Mauger's 1969 average I will check this out and let you know my findings shortly.

 

Steve

Edited November 29, 2014 by steve19620

[stratton]

Hi Sidney

 

The Speedway Star is predominently used when producing the heat results in my Season files. As advised in my earlier e-mail the rider's points scored in league and KO matches ARE checked against the the end of season averages published in the "Star" or in Peter Oakes's History of British League 1965-1990 book. Therefore the points scorers for "official" meetings will be accurate (any errors or queries found in them I would like to know about !). Any differences in the individual riders points against the end of season averages are printed on the last page of the respective season file. When preparing the heat results problems do arise when 1) a 2 mins or tapes exclusion in the published heat results are unreported (this happens quite a lot in the Star), 2) an incorrectly reported 4th rider, it is more difficult to vouch for 4 place finishers (as they score nil points !) and 3) they are non official meetings, such as challenges, individuals, pairs meetings, etc. Unfortunately these records cannot be verified as there is no "official" record to compare against.

 

I would like to think that the files I have produced contain a high degree of accurancy and can be trusted for anyone to look back at, use and reminisce (if they wish).

 

Regarding your query regarding Ivan Mauger's 1969 average I will check this out and let you know my findings shortly.

 

Steve

Thanks alot Steve.

[steve19620]

Sidney

 

Regarding the Ivan Mauger's 1969 average.

 

It depends on whether you include league matches and knock-out cup matches.

 

With League matches only (35 to be be exact), Ivan's average was 11.74 (just 12 points dropped !), include the two KO matches (with a further point dropped) reduces to the average to mere 11.67 !

 

A staggering 22 full and a further 3 paid maximums were recorded in his league fixtures and with another full maximum in the KO cup makes pretty impressive reading.

 

Steve

[stratton]

Sidney

 

Regarding the Ivan Mauger's 1969 average.

 

It depends on whether you include league matches and knock-out cup matches.

 

With League matches only (35 to be be exact), Ivan's average was 11.74 (just 12 points dropped !), include the two KO matches (with a further point dropped) reduces to the average to mere 11.67 !

 

A staggering 22 full and a further 3 paid maximums were recorded in his league fixtures and with another full maximum in the KO cup makes pretty impressive reading.

 

Steve

Thanks alot Steve i always believed it was 11.74,what an average eh in 35 matches.When most teams had an out and out number one and usually two decent heat leaders as well those days are well gone in England now.

[The White Knight]

Thanks alot Steve i always believed it was 11.74,what an average eh in 35 matches.When most teams had an out and out number one and usually two decent heat leaders as well those days are well gone in England now.

I'm afraid so sidney - and I mourn their passing. :sad:

[moxey63]

In my day (sound like uncle Albert now), top men were top men. You had your Maugers, Olsens, Collins, all grade A boys... then you had Billy Sanders, Chris Morton, Terry Betts. Indeed, the BLRC used to be a real pride event. It was worth qualifying for, some boys that didn't make it had ridden out of their skins all season, just to be at Belle Vue on those chilly October nights.

 

Fast forward to now... and, as Larry Ross stated recently in the Star, a world champion never scored seven points when he was riding (referring to one of the matches he'd seen while over here last year).

 

It says it all really. All the old boys having long retired, their expected replacements, when they can be bothered committing to Britain, they don't really command the pulling power, the force or presence of 11.74 averages... and can run a last at the drop of a hat. Is this why crowds began declining - the standard of top men in speedway 2015 compares to.. I don't know... perhaps JedWard of the pop world, trying to fill The Beatles' boots?

 

When the sport has sunk this low, all the real stars have left the stage, I laugh at people worrying about all the top stars not wanting to ride here. Speedway has slumbered through decades losing its real class. Maybe it's just coincidence that crowds followed them through the exit doors of time. But, in my view Jason Crump was the last genuine STAR of Elite League racing. I could imagine him attracting an audience, should he ever come back to Britain.

 

The top names, the pulling power of the past decades, nobody has replaced them.. and nobody has replaced the missing fans.

 

Am I making sense today.. or should nurse up my meds?

Edited December 2, 2014 by moxey63

[stratton]

In my day (sound like uncle Albert now), top men were top men. You had your Maugers, Olsens, Collins, all grade A boys... then you had Billy Sanders, Chris Morton, Terry Betts. Indeed, the BLRC used to be a real pride event. It was worth qualifying for, some boys that didn't make it had ridden out of their skins all season, just to be at Belle Vue on those chilly October nights.

 

Fast forward to now... and, as Larry Ross stated recently in the Star, a world champion never scored seven points when he was riding (referring to one of the matches he'd seen while over here last year).

 

It says it all really. All the old boys having long retired, their expected replacements, when they can be bothered committing to Britain, they don't really command the pulling power, the force or presence of 11.74 averages... and can run a last at the drop of a hat. Is this why crowds began declining - the standard of top men in speedway 2015 compares to.. I don't know... perhaps JedWard of the pop world, trying to fill The Beatles' boots?

 

When the sport has sunk this low, all the real stars have left the stage, I laugh at people worrying about all the top stars not wanting to ride here. Speedway has slumbered through decades losing its real class. Maybe it's just coincidence that crowds followed them through the exit doors of time. But, in my view Jason Crump was the last genuine STAR of Elite League racing. I could imagine him attracting an audience, should he ever come back to Britain.

 

The top names, the pulling power of the past decades, nobody has replaced them.. and nobody has replaced the missing fans.

 

Am I making sense today.. or should nurse up my meds?

 

Totally agree but some people are sucked in by a decent GP series,great to watch but by god it has totally destroyed our league racing.