Warsaw Gp Saturday 18th April

[E I Addio]

Ole Olsen has ridden a speedway bike. He has won many World Titles. He has prepared more tracks than most.

 

Yet a few people on here seem to be arguing with his expert opinion. Thats odd. As I don't believe they have won as much as him on a speedway bike or preped as many tracks.

Len Silver has ridden a speedwáy bike. He has prepared more tracks than most including for international events, but anyone going to Rye House these days can see he has clearly lost the plot. Olsens track prep has been controversial for some time. Maybe he is losing his mar bles as well.

[nw42]

Len Silver has ridden a speedwáy bike. He has prepared more tracks than most including for international events, but anyone going to Rye House these days can see he has clearly lost the plot. Olsens track prep has been controversial for some time. Maybe he is losing his mar bles as well.

 

 

Know what you mean about Len Silver but maybe it's down to the materials he has to work with these days rather than his own failings, then again we do still see well prepared tracks here and there, is that because they spend more money on their material?

[E I Addio]

Know what you mean about Len Silver but maybe it's down to the materials he has to work with these days rather than his own failings, then again we do still see well prepared tracks here and there, is that because they spend more money on their material?

No. It usually means that the track curator has enough time to do the job properly and is not squeezing the job in between dog racing etc. going back to Len Silver he keeps banging on in his book about endless laps round and round on the tractor and in fairness he did do some decent tracks at Hackney back in the day.

 

I don't think its money spent on material these days it's fiding the right quality stuff in the first place, and in this country at least a lot of the best pits have closed.

 

As far as Olsen is concerned , there was undoubtedly trouble with the track surface at some stage hence the cancellation of practice.

I don't know enough about it to be specific but if it is true that Olsen only had three days to lay the track it doesn't seem much time to me. What Starman said in an earlier post about tracks needing time to settle and take water is my understanding as well. When all is said and done about this shambles it wouldn't surprise me in the least if corners were cut on track prep, possibly to cut costs.

[nw42]

No. It usually means that the track curator has enough time to do the job properly and is not squeezing the job in between dog racing etc. going back to Len Silver he keeps banging on in his book about endless laps round and round on the tractor and in fairness he did do some decent tracks at Hackney back in the day.

 

I don't think its money spent on material these days it's fiding the right quality stuff in the first place, and in this country at least a lot of the best pits have closed.

 

As far as Olsen is concerned , there was undoubtedly trouble with the track surface at some stage hence the cancellation of practice.

I don't know enough about it to be specific but if it is true that Olsen only had three days to lay the track it doesn't seem much time to me. What Starman said in an earlier post about tracks needing time to settle and take water is my understanding as well. When all is said and done about this shambles it wouldn't surprise me in the least if corners were cut on track prep, possibly to cut costs.

 

Thanks for the reply, Olsen has prepared a few dodgy tracks in these stadia, doesn't he normally have a week to get Cardiff track laid? Probably like most on here I know a good few who have turned their back on this sport over recent years, there will be a good few more after this fiasco.

[E I Addio]

Correct I do.

 

 

 

And wheres this statement that says the riders through the track was unfit?

There isn't one. The statement says the FIM jury deemed it unfit. They are in charge of the meeting, they are the only ones with authority to sign the track off as unfit so if it was a wrong decision the buck stops with them.

Thanks for the reply, Olsen has prepared a few dodgy tracks in these stadia, doesn't he normally have a week to get Cardiff track laid? Probably like most on here I know a good few who have turned their back on this sport over recent years, there will be a good few more after this fiasco.

I have to say that last Satyrday was the first GP I have watched in over a year and most of the time I really don't know what people get excited about. I honestly believe that if it wasn't the tension of a world title at stake there would be very little in them race-wise to entertain the audience most of the time. The thing that puts me off most is the poor quality inconsistent refereeing. Too many GP' s IMO. Six is more than enough. Maybe a couple of qualifier early season to narrow the top 32 down to 16 but on good tracks. Part of the problem with the present system is that a lot of the qualifying tracks are rubbish.

 

Just my opinion.

Edited April 21, 2015 by E I Addio

[BWitcher]

There isn't one. The statement says the FIM jury deemed it unfit. They are in charge of the meeting, they are the only ones with authority to sign the track off as unfit so if it was a wrong decision the buck stops with them.

 

Still banging on about the track?

 

I notice that all the naysayers conveniently don't comment on the actual footage that I have provided links to on this thread. The footage that quite clearly, 100% shows that the track was NOT dangerous.

 

The footage that shows Iversen perfectly happy, giving a thumbs up in the pits while preparing for his next ride...

 

The footage that shows Gollob and Jonasson passing and repassing, inside and outside..

 

The footage that shows not one mention of the track being dangerous.

 

And now, we have a rider breaking ranks and stating it was correct to stop the meeting due to the green light starts, which pretty much renders the whole argument redundant.

 

The riders were a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame, those who stirred it up and those who went along with it equally.

[Shale Searcher]

 

They become tv pundits and steal a living that way instead, jobs for the boys.

 

 

 

I think the covered seats are more to do with the fact that they can't sell them because they don't offer a view of the track due the the height of the air-fence, could be wrong though. Also I thought the dirt deflectors stop the shale flying up, or have they stopped using them now?

As far as I know, these seated areas covered over are covered to stop people trying to sit there, it's an area deemed to risky for spectators, and so they just cover the area over with shading mesh or similar...

[HenryW]

And now, we have a rider breaking ranks and stating it was correct to stop the meeting due to the green light starts, which pretty much renders the whole argument redundant.

I'm not sure if that was exactly what was said in the article. It could be that he was just mentioning the green light starts as another issue on top of the unfit track...It would be good to get a Polish speaker to provide the natural context of the comments from KK.

[Jacques]

 

Still banging on about the track?

 

I notice that all the naysayers conveniently don't comment on the actual footage that I have provided links to on this thread. The footage that quite clearly, 100% shows that the track was NOT dangerous.

 

The footage that shows Iversen perfectly happy, giving a thumbs up in the pits while preparing for his next ride...

 

The footage that shows Gollob and Jonasson passing and repassing, inside and outside..

 

The footage that shows not one mention of the track being dangerous.

 

And now, we have a rider breaking ranks and stating it was correct to stop the meeting due to the green light starts, which pretty much renders the whole argument redundant.

 

The riders were a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame, those who stirred it up and those who went along with it equally.

 

Bwitcher accuses another poster of " banging on".

 

Oh, my life

[SCB]

Len Silver has ridden a speedwáy bike. He has prepared more tracks than most including for international events, but anyone going to Rye House these days can see he has clearly lost the plot. Olsens track prep has been controversial for some time. Maybe he is losing his mar bles as well.

So, let me get this right. Ole Olsens opinion on tracks is irrelevant because we can see they're rubbish. Len Silvers opinions on tracks is irrelevant because anyone who goes to Rye House can see he's lost the plot. But woe betide anyone who dares to criticize a rider because they're the experts who rides bikes.

 

I call bollocks. It's one or the other. Either because riders are beyond reproach then so are track guys. Or if track guys are able to be criticised so are riders.

 

What is it about speedway riders that means we can't possibility ever say anything bad about them?

 

 

Also, don't those defending the riders over the track feel like ** now a rider has come out and said it wasn't about the track but the start gate?!

[E I Addio]

Still banging on about the track?

 

I notice that all the naysayers conveniently don't comment on the actual footage that I have provided links to on this thread. The footage that quite clearly, 100% shows that the track was NOT dangerous.

 

The footage that shows Iversen perfectly happy, giving a thumbs up in the pits while preparing for his next ride...

 

The footage that shows Gollob and Jonasson passing and repassing, inside and outside..

 

The footage that shows not one mention of the track being dangerous.

 

And now, we have a rider breaking ranks and stating it was correct to stop the meeting due to the green light starts, which pretty much renders the whole argument redundant.

 

The riders were a disgrace and should hang their heads in shame, those who stirred it up and those who went along with it equally.

No, you are tilting at windmills. Try reading the post in context without the old red mist rising up and clouding your judgment.

Someone asked a simple question and I gave a simple answer. The question was where is the riders statement and I said there isn't one, which is correct , unless you can tell us otherwise. I also pointed out that there is an FIM statement saying the meeting was called off because the track was unfit.

 

Now, you can huff and puff all you like but the plain fact is that the FIM jury are the ones with authority to sign the meeting off, not the riders. We can debate whether it was the right or wrong decision but it was the FIM jury that made the decision, not the riders so I said if they got it wrong the buck stops with them.

 

Incidenrtly you have chosen not to mention that in the footage you provided Kelvin Tatum refers to ruts and at various times describes the track as choppy, difficult and challenging. Just his opinion of course, and in fairness he does not use the word dangerous but it is interesting that you chose to ignore those comments because it doesn't suit your argument.

 

Anyway the bottom line is that the FIM jury have rightly or wrongly deemed the track unfit so that is a closed issue. The only matter for discussion is what line of reasoning brought them to that decision. Looking at the overall conduct of the meeting though I would agree that the FIM jurors should never officiate at another prestigious event.

 

No doubt more information will emerge with the passage of time, but in the meantime do try to read what my posts say instead of reading more into them than is actually there.

 

EDIT. See Henry W's more measured post about KK's comments before launching into a tirade about riders breaking ranks, as it seems you have clearly not read the article yourself.

Edited April 21, 2015 by E I Addio

[BWitcher]

 

Bwitcher accuses another poster of " banging on".

 

Oh, my life

 

Get back to your dishes

[E I Addio]

So, let me get this right. Ole Olsens opinion on tracks is irrelevant because we can see they're rubbish. Len Silvers opinions on tracks is irrelevant because anyone who goes to Rye House can see he's lost the plot. But woe betide anyone who dares to criticize a rider because they're the experts who rides bikes.

 

 

 

No, you haven't got it right. You are getting like Bwitcher and reading things that aren't there.I never said Ole Olsens opinion is rubbish, and in fact the only comment I have seen from him on this particular matter is that he said the FIM jury signed it off as safe before the meeting so maybe that is something else for them to answer.

 

If you want to draw any inference from what I said it is to suggest Olsen is not infallible, just as Uncle Len is perhaps not the man he once was. Plus of course it Olsens track so as an infamous lady once said "he would say that wouldn't he?"

 

Olsens culpability or otherwise is yet to be determined but since the track went from being safe to unsafe in the space of twelve heats acccording to the FIM jury there needs to be some explanation as to why that supposedly happened. Perhaps in time honoured tradition it will be "nobody's fault". How does that sound?

Edited April 21, 2015 by E I Addio

[SCB]

No, you haven't got it right. You are getting like Bwitcher and reading things that aren't there.I never said Ole Olsens opinion is rubbish, and in fact the only comment I have seen from him on this particular matter is that he said the FIM jury signed it off as safe before the meeting so maybe that is something else for them to answer.

 

If you want to draw any inference from what I said it is to suggest Olsen is not infallible, just as Uncle Len is perhaps not the man he once was. Plus of course it Olsens track so as an infamous lady once said "he would say that wouldn't he?"

 

Olsens culpability or otherwise is yet to be determined but since the track went from being safe to unsafe in the space of twelve heats acccording to the FIM jury there needs to be some explanation as to why that supposedly happened. Perhaps in time honoured tradition it will be "nobody's fault". How does that sound?

Still none the wiser. Track men can be criticized. Does this mean riders can be too? Or are riders still sacred and must not be criticized?

[spook]

 

I see your point, but as you said earlier, go watch heats 9 through 12 again, try to put to one side what you 'know' and picture it like any other meeting.. you won't see any indication that the meeting is about to be called off, riders are going at it hammer and tongs.

 

The one who fell, Batchelor, he wasn't fit enough to hold onto the bike anyway, by his own admission.

 

 

 

I notice that all the naysayers conveniently don't comment on the actual footage that I have provided links to on this thread. The footage that quite clearly, 100% shows that the track was NOT dangerous.

 

patience Daniel san

 

right ..... so ive watched the first two hours again.... what a mug eh? It was worth it though as I noticed a lot that I didnt first time around. Not sure how to say what I saw other than a list of observations

 

 

I count 5 of the 12 races had passing in ...ht2, 5, 9, 11 & 12 ..... one of those had 2 passes ...... 2 of the passes were due to riders hitting ruts (nothing strange there on a temp track but starting a little earlier than normal)

The riders who showed visibly that they were cheesed off were: Magic, Zagar, Holder (multiple times), Doyle, NickiP, Greg..................... alternately Bomber, Hampel & MJJ seemed quite chipper

 

I'm not so critical of what we saw of Phil Morris this time around.... he was working his backside off with the riders over the green light start issue............. what he should never have done is followed NickiP off the track & this followed by Doyle's subsequent exclusion could well be seen as a significant moment in the riders knowing they could get above their station

 

Not all the riders stayed still on green light... Magic was creeping in ht7

 

Spidercam is freakin awesome!

 

There was a rider briefing after ht4 (wasnt made all that obvious)

 

Jim Lawrence's performance hadnt improved 2nd time around

 

 

Rutting started in Ht6 ..... the restarts saw the start of the 3rd bend rutting

Ht7 saw rutting in the first bend entry with Greg suffering

Ht8 1st bend entry shows itself again

Ht9 exit of 4 is rutting

Ht10 Pedersen finds terrible rut in 1st bend from the start & it kills his race.............. Holder finds bad rut between 1&2 and he loses it (I saw no sign of it being due to a lack of confidence...... he seemed on it in this race)

Ht11 Gollob & THJ are clearly avoiding the inside on entries

Ht12 Magic hits rut exiting 4................. Batch hits rut on 1 and loses it (this did look like his wrist wasnt strong enough to control it though)

 

 

I'm pretty much of the same opinion BWitcher........... The track at that point was still rideable but it had issues and the writing was on the wall....... the track needed some attention (did they have time?) and the riders just had to get the job done.............. the tapes issue had clearly taken its toll on them (and who knows the effect of Friday on top) and someone(s) seemingly did a very good job whipping up support in the riders' meeting..............

 

you are right they should hang their heads in disgrace...... edit: but so should the ref, the race director, the jury, speed sport, & BSI...... did I miss anyone?!

 

btw much better link for the GP here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzA4LclvvIE

Edited April 22, 2015 by spook

[stratton]

Get back to your dishes

And cleaning the toilets.

[SCB]

you are right they should hang their heads in disgrace...... edit: but so should the ref, the race director, the jury, speed sport, & BSI...... did I miss anyone?!

Agreed. The whole lot of them either screwed up or used a screw up to scrw things up some more when with a little bit of will, determination and doing a professional job while thinking of the fans could have seen the whole farce sorted a lot better. Had they not spent an hour arsing about with the tapes then they would have had an hour to actually do some work on the track - the riders would have probably been more receptive to it too. But the riders when stropping off should have probably thought a little about the fans and given it a go, surely for 4 more heats to see if the track did become dangerous.

 

The referee should have not been rubbish, between him and Phil Morris they probably had Magic and Doyley wound up anyway and Woffy was probably not best pleased. Then when they did re-run a heat that upset Nicki. So between them they were upsetting riders who probably just wanted it over or to hit someone.

 

Nobody comes out of this whole sorry mess looking good. Ole should have done a better job on the track, the referee should have been consistent and fair. Phil should not have chased after Nicki and showed he was willing to back down. The riders should have gone out to provide a show to the fans.

[E I Addio]

Still none the wiser. Track men can be criticized. Does this mean riders can be too? Or are riders still sacred and must not be criticized?

Of course the riders can be critised if people wish, subject to the proviso that they are the ones riding the. bikes. Unfortunately , on the forum in general not just this thread, 75% of posters seem to think that knee jerk reaction and hyperbole as if they were writing headlines for The Sun is a substitute for constructive criticism.

 

Let's try to look at it more calmly:-

 

Phil Morris comes in for a lot of stick (Phil Morris hang your head in shame" screamed one poster-do people really still speak like that in the 21st century) , but I don't know, and I don't think anybody on here knows, what exactly do his responsibilities include. Part of the clue is in his title ~ "Race director" but it's not clear where his responsibilities end and the FIM jury starts is not clear, and as I said before Ashley Holloway, who has more insight than most on here has tweeted that the blame lies with nameless ones other than Phil so criticism of him may-I stress MAY- be premature, but that won't stop the lynch mob.

 

The failings of Jim Lawrence are there for all to see, inconsistent decisions, failure to spot the uneven tapes, taking so long to communicate Jason Doyles exclusion etc should not be acceptable in an NL match, let alone a GP , and those failings set the scene for what was to follow so he is one that must be in the firing line.

 

Ole Olsen we probably will not get to the bottom of. Clearly there were problems with the track hence the cancellation of practice but whether it is his fault or whether he was not given sufficient time remains to be seen. I am biased because I never did like Olsen so I'll say no more.

 

Then we have the FIM jury. At the risk of repeating myself they were the ones that pulled the plug on the meeting. They have questions to answer. The FIM statement says the track was unfit. I wasnt in the room with the riders so I don't know what was said. we can infer certain things but the bottom line is that they, not the riders signed the meeting off due to an unfit track. That is not in dispute. That raises the question of how they approved the track 12 heats earlier and how it supposedly became unfit in only half the meeting. They are the officials, they need to explain.

 

All I will say about the riders is I am still not clear what supposed motive they have for walking out if they did not have genuine feelings about track safety, but I don't Belive that strong personalities like Tai, Holder, Bomber and especially Zagar who was having a good night are so weak willed as to go along with the walk out simply because Greg and Nicki pulled the wool over their eyes. For my part I think the truth of what happened there has yet to come out.

[oldace]

Of course the riders can be critised if people wish, subject to the proviso that they are the ones riding the. bikes. Unfortunately , on the forum in general not just this thread, 75% of posters seem to think that knee jerk reaction and hyperbole as if they were writing headlines for The Sun is a substitute for constructive criticism.

 

Let's try to look at it more calmly:-

 

Phil Morris comes in for a lot of stick (Phil Morris hang your head in shame" screamed one poster-do people really still speak like that in the 21st century) , but I don't know, and I don't think anybody on here knows, what exactly do his responsibilities include. Part of the clue is in his title ~ "Race director" but it's not clear where his responsibilities end and the FIM jury starts is not clear, and as I said before Ashley Holloway, who has more insight than most on here has tweeted that the blame lies with nameless ones other than Phil so criticism of him may-I stress MAY- be premature, but that won't stop the lynch mob.

 

The failings of Jim Lawrence are there for all to see, inconsistent decisions, failure to spot the uneven tapes, taking so long to communicate Jason Doyles exclusion etc should not be acceptable in an NL match, let alone a GP , and those failings set the scene for what was to follow so he is one that must be in the firing line.

 

Ole Olsen we probably will not get to the bottom of. Clearly there were problems with the track hence the cancellation of practice but whether it is his fault or whether he was not given sufficient time remains to be seen. I am biased because I never did like Olsen so I'll say no more.

Then we have the FIM jury. At the risk of repeating myself they were the ones that pulled the plug on the meeting. They have questions to answer. The FIM statement says the track was unfit. I wasnt in the room with the riders so I don't know what was said. we can infer certain things but the bottom line is that they, not the riders signed the meeting off due to an unfit track. That is not in dispute. That raises the question of how they approved the track 12 heats earlier and how it supposedly became unfit in only half the meeting. They are the officials, they need to explain.

All I will say about the riders is I am still not clear what supposed motive they have for walking out if they did not have genuine feelings about track safety, but I don't Belive that strong personalities like Tai, Holder, Bomber and especially Zagar who was having a good night are so weak willed as to go along with the walk out simply because Greg and Nicki pulled the wool over their eyes. For my part I think the truth of what happened there has yet to come out.

 

 

You don't need to keep repeating it, we are all quite aware who's jurisdiction the decision to cancel comes under.

 

Look who that Jury is though.

 

Tony Steele.

 

Well we saw him in action at Belle Vue v Poole last year with the infamous "moisture coming out of the track" nonsense once heat 10 was reached. He clearly showed he was merely a puppet dancing to a tune that night. A weak individual who allows himself to be manipulated.

 

Jim Lawrence

 

By heat 12 Jim was flailing like a drowning man and was probably happy to have it stopped and be put out of his misery.

 

The other member (a Pole I believe) I am not aware of so can't comment on his credentials

 

However it is dressed up and whoever s decision the call off ultimately was, the reality, as we all know, is that rider power got that GP cancelled and that is wholly unacceptable

[Grand Central]

Of course the riders can be critised if people wish, subject to the proviso that they are the ones riding the. bikes. Unfortunately , on the forum in general not just this thread, 75% of posters seem to think that knee jerk reaction and hyperbole as if they were writing headlines for The Sun is a substitute for constructive criticism.

 

Let's try to look at it more calmly:-

 

Phil Morris comes in for a lot of stick (Phil Morris hang your head in shame" screamed one poster-do people really still speak like that in the 21st century) , but I don't know, and I don't think anybody on here knows, what exactly do his responsibilities include. Part of the clue is in his title ~ "Race director" but it's not clear where his responsibilities end and the FIM jury starts is not clear, and as I said before Ashley Holloway, who has more insight than most on here has tweeted that the blame lies with nameless ones other than Phil so criticism of him may-I stress MAY- be premature, but that won't stop the lynch mob.

 

The failings of Jim Lawrence are there for all to see, inconsistent decisions, failure to spot the uneven tapes, taking so long to communicate Jason Doyles exclusion etc should not be acceptable in an NL match, let alone a GP , and those failings set the scene for what was to follow so he is one that must be in the firing line.

 

Ole Olsen we probably will not get to the bottom of. Clearly there were problems with the track hence the cancellation of practice but whether it is his fault or whether he was not given sufficient time remains to be seen. I am biased because I never did like Olsen so I'll say no more.

 

Then we have the FIM jury. At the risk of repeating myself they were the ones that pulled the plug on the meeting. They have questions to answer. The FIM statement says the track was unfit. I wasnt in the room with the riders so I don't know what was said. we can infer certain things but the bottom line is that they, not the riders signed the meeting off due to an unfit track. That is not in dispute. That raises the question of how they approved the track 12 heats earlier and how it supposedly became unfit in only half the meeting. They are the officials, they need to explain.

 

All I will say about the riders is I am still not clear what supposed motive they have for walking out if they did not have genuine feelings about track safety, but I don't Belive that strong personalities like Tai, Holder, Bomber and especially Zagar who was having a good night are so weak willed as to go along with the walk out simply because Greg and Nicki pulled the wool over their eyes. For my part I think the truth of what happened there has yet to come out.

 

 

So yes, thank you for looking at things calmly.

But it still arrives at pretty much the same, rather pitiful, conclusions.

 

A whole group of officials and 'backroom' people did their job in a p!ss poor fashion.

Thus producing a 'perfect storm' of inadequate practice track, barely adequate raceday track, malfunctioning tapes, malfunctioning referee and ineffectual race director.

So the riders got so upset, that they spat out their dummies.

And by virtue of 'rider power' were able to get the wet-weekend-trio in the Jury to call it off.

 

And 50000 spectators plus the massive TV audience, are supposed to look at this calmy!!

 

Antiquated phrase or not.

It needs to be brought back into common usage for ALL these people.

They should hang their heads in shame.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Grand Central