Warsaw Gp Saturday 18th April

[PHILIPRISING]

MOST of what I am telling you I saw with more own eyes or experienced myself. If people had been guilty of not testing equipment such as the starting gate, two minute clock, etc before the start then they would indeed be culpable but that wasn't the case.

 

At all GPs there is a separate PA system for the pits which I use to keep the riders informed of various decisions, call them to briefings, and provide a minute-by-minute countdown to the parade, etc. It became apparent inside the Stadion Narodowy around six pm that on this occasion it was useless because against the stadium PA blasting out music and the noise of the crowd nobody could hear me. That's just the way it was.

 

I am not sure who you (Barrycuda) are referring to about peanuts and monkeys. The bottom line is that had the track been fit for purpose even using the green light to start the races instead of the tapes would have paled into insignificance. It all mushroomed from there but no one sets out to be incompetent whatever they are being paid.

 

I am still of the opinion that had the meeting progressed at a normal pace it may well have reached its conclusion but a combination of the various problems, allied to track conditions, simply proved too much for the riders to bear.

[500cc]

EXTREMELY ... it was actually warmer outside. The whole Doyle episode was very confusing. He clearly did move before the green light went out but it wasn't referee Jim Lawrence's intention to exclude him, only issue a warning. Something got lost in the communication to the pits and Jury President Tony Steele later apologised to the Aussie. I have a direct walkie-talkie link to the referee (via FIM SGP Secretary Graham Brodie, who sits next to him) and the race director and with all the noise reverberating around the stadium could barely hear a thing that was being said.

 

It is the FIM who are responsible for testing equipment such as starting gate, lights etc (nothing to do with BSI) which was carried out numerous times during the day and again before the meeting. Somehow the gremlins got in but whether there it was due to the cold is conjecture.

 

It gets worse and worse. We watched this unravel on Eurosport in disbelief. The number of things that "went wrong" are mind boggling. But of course nobody is really responsible, it's all everybody else's fault. Did ANYONE do a good job including the Riders (whose reaction to the green light decision should NEVER be allowed again). The Riders are given an extra benefit of doubt over safety. In exchange they must NOT take advantage of non-safety issues.

 

If the referee didn't exclude him, why didn't he ensure he was back in the race before proceeding? Quite odd

 

This is getting serious. It's easy, the referee puts on the red lights if the correct riders are not at the tape. But it is being reported that Lawrence wasn't confident the red lights were working. WHAT? That's bordering (and surpassing) negligence. As a starting point Lawrence should be suspended until the facts are proven. This is just dangerous.

 

And it's just incompetent he ran the race without Doyle. So this was enough communication to organise an entire heat to be re-run (that takes some communication), but not enough to ensure the correct riders were at tape, or even re-run after the officials screwed up.

 

NO I'm not ... just trying to explain things as they were. Let's not forget that unlike Cardiff, Copenhagen or Stockholm, where the pits area is pretty well insulated from the stadium noise, communication was an unforeseen problem and just added to the many things that shouldn't have gone wrong on the night but sadly did. It was indeed a catalogue of errors.

 

So this "expertise" built up over years was not sufficient to pre-empt issues with exposed pits / referee boxes. I expect that will another pass the buck issue. Will anybody actually admit that the entire model for managing a Speedway Grand Prix is flawed. If the review of problems repeatedly identifies the failures having no single point of responsibility or management responsibility, then the model is flawed. Resolving this meetings failings is insufficient, if the model is fundamentally incapable of supporting it.

 

To me it's a shambles. The reality is that a perfect system is unrealistic. But the number of issues in Warsaw is beyond belief. And let's be honest, what we are aware of publicly is not the full story. There will be more failings, some of which may not cause problems directly, but when mixed with others will cause theses bigger issues.

[PHILIPRISING]

ONE thing that hasn't been given much of an airing is the effect that Saturday morning practice had on the track. It was quite understandable that the FIM, PZM and BSI, let alone the riders, wanted to test the track, much of which had been relaid overnight from Friday.

 

However, a full session even though riders now have four runs of two minutes instead of six at one and a half, is the equivalent of 24 heats. To the best of my knowledge there were few complaints about the track then which begs the question had there been no practice would the meeting have been completed without any track issues?

[Grand Central]

ONE thing that hasn't been given much of an airing is the effect that Saturday morning practice had on the track. It was quite understandable that the FIM, PZM and BSI, let alone the riders, wanted to test the track, much of which had been relaid overnight from Friday.

 

However, a full session even though riders now have four runs of two minutes instead of six at one and a half, is the equivalent of 24 heats. To the best of my knowledge there were few complaints about the track then which begs the question had there been no practice would the meeting have been completed without any track issues?

 

 

I am sure there is a lot of truth in that.

 

But as with absolutely everything else, just about all the people involved in this debacle were the very people that had gained all the experience of previous cock ups and almost cock ups. But all of them, at all levels, seem to have a complete mental block on learning and have zero ability to enact any positive change.

 

And then people are still talking as if every single item this Saturday was new and totally impossible to foresee.

 

The multi-layered structure of responsibilities has been exposed as being the perfect way to deflect blame around until eventually no one turns out to be responsible at all. But it is not going to change. The obvious need to have some one person of stature in charge to 'carry' the show is being missed.

Someone who can show real leadership and galvanise everyone before the meeting and on the night. And who can get the thing back on the rails when it is being pulled off by circumstances or riders is desperately needed.

Headless chickens are all that are on show so far.

 

It really is pitiful to hear.

 

And it just offers no hope whatsoever.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Grand Central

[A ORLOV]

 

 

I am sure there is a lot of truth in that.

 

But as with absolutely everything else, just about all the people involved in this debacle were the very people that had gained all the experience of previous cock ups and almost cock ups. But all of them, at all levels, seem to have a complete mental block on learning and have zero ability to enact any positive change.

 

And then people are still talking as if every single item this Saturday was new and totally impossible to foresee.

 

The multi-layered structure of responsibilities has been exposed as being the perfect way to deflect blame around until eventually no one turns out to be responsible at all. But it is not going to change. The obvious need to have someone person in charge to 'carry' the show is being missed.

Headless chickens are all that are on show so far.

 

It really is pitiful to hear.

 

And it just offers no hope whatsoever.

Most professional organisations have a back up plan for things that go wrong, especially if they have gone wrong before. Unprofessional operators state "lessons will be learnt", but they never are.

[Buttons]

I do wonder if the starting gate hadn't failed, would the meeting have been stopped?

[iris123]

Double edged sword though.Guess this will be a very short practice,because how many times has the practice mucked up the track?If they have managed to get it into shape I just hope this won't put them back to square one again

 

 

ONE thing that hasn't been given much of an airing is the effect that Saturday morning practice had on the track. It was quite understandable that the FIM, PZM and BSI, let alone the riders, wanted to test the track, much of which had been relaid overnight from Friday.

 

However, a full session even though riders now have four runs of two minutes instead of six at one and a half, is the equivalent of 24 heats. To the best of my knowledge there were few complaints about the track then which begs the question had there been no practice would the meeting have been completed without any track issues?

It hasn't been given much of an airing Phil,but I have aired it about 3 times at least on this thread,though up until now you are the only other person to bring it up.Well done.But like I mentioned right at the early stage...........lessons just haven't been learnt!!!!! And of course I mentioned that the one or at least one of the riders who didn't bother with the training actually won the meeting,if it has to be called that

[HenryW]

If ever you need proof that lessons are NOT learned in the GP series, you just need to look at the start gate problems.

 

A few seasons ago there were issues with the start gate and for the next few rounds they had someone watching to ensure the tapes rose evenly...but that was forgotten about after a few rounds of perfect tapes and so the next time there is a problem we are faced with the complete farce we saw on Saturday night. A race being declared a result despite the fact that there were clearly problems with the gate was a complete and utter joke.

 

However, that pales into insignificance to some of the other comedy events that Phil seems to be telling us....

 

The referee didn't want to exclude a rider but allowed a race to start without him?? PMSL!!!

 

No-one considered that it might be a bit loud in the stadium with 53,000 fans in there??? PMSL!!!

[Humphrey Appleby]

I know you cannot resist pointing the finger at a 'professional organising company' but there are some aspects of staging a SGP that are ultimately the responsibility of the FIM although, as previously stated, no one could really have envisaged how tough it was until the event got underway.

I'd love to live in your world where everyone gets everything right all the time.

I'm not running an allegedly professional speedway show in my world. That a GP is relying on a public PA to relay information to the pits with seemingly no obvious other reliable method of communication is astonishing, as is the admission that the referee didn't exclude a rider but didn't fix that mistake. On the issue of the red lights failing (or not), there is again a well documented procedure for what happens in this event.

 

However in my world since you asked, I've been co-promoting a small motor sports series for 10 years, and guess what, we've run into many similar problems (well apart from having big crowds LOL). Probably some new problem occurs every year that we haven't encountered before, but we have good communications, a chain of command, and defined contingency plans for when things do happen, and this is at a totally amateur level with a budget of a few thousand, not millions. I don't pretend it's anything on the scale of running the SGP, but I do have some grasp of how to organise an event.

 

Okay, complexity increases when you start involving a lot more officials and then throw big crowds into the mix as well, but BSI have been doing this for *15* years now and they're still not getting it right. The track problems are almost forgiveable given what is for sure a huge and difficult logistical task, but piss poor communication and dodgy trackside equipment is not. It's been reported on here that one of the starting gate stanchions didn't look aligned, yet seemingly this was not picked up in all the alleged testing?

 

Blaming the FIM is also comical. How an event is organised and equipped on the day is entirely the responsibility of the staging promoter - down to providing adequate means of communication for officials.

 

Sadly, whilst we appreciate your input on here, I really think someone in your position should be far more publicly questioning about the whole set-up.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[Barrycuda]

Post removed

Edited June 6, 2015 by Barrycuda

[PHILIPRISING]

I'm not running an allegedly professional speedway show in my world. That a GP is relying on a public PA to relay information to the pits with seemingly no obvious other reliable method of communication is astonishing, as is the admission that the referee didn't exclude a rider but didn't fix that mistake. On the issue of the red lights failing (or not), there is again a well documented procedure for what happens in this event.

 

 

IT'S not a public PA but one specially installed in the pits and essential in places like Cardiff where some riders are a long way from the track and like to be reminded when their next heat (or practice session on a Friday) is coming up. It is also used to call riders to the scoreboard for the semi final and final draws, to countdown the time they need to be ready for the parade, informed when grading breaks are coming to an end, and so on. Why is is it unprofessional?

Edited April 26, 2015 by PHILIPRISING

[Humphrey Appleby]

IT'S not a public PA but one specially installed in the pits and essential in places like Cardiff where some riders are a long way from the track and like to be reminded when their next heat (or practice session on a Friday) is coming up. It is also used to call riders to the scoreboard for the semi final and final draws, to countdown the time they need to be ready for the parade, informed when grading breaks are coming to an end, and so on. Why is is it unprofessional?

Did I say having a PA in the pits was unprofessional? However, there's a lot of noise in the pits (from bikes being revved), noise in the stadium, and potentially the connection may break even assuming there's any direct connection to the referee's box in the first place (as presumably most information that needs to be provided is primarily related to the running order and could be related by someone in the pits such as the CoC).

 

What about screens in the pits relaying race control information as a visual backup, text based communicators to key officials in event of audio/visual problems, or for the worst case scenario, a designated runner on standby to shuttle messages to/from the pits? It's really not rocket science.

[Grand Central]

IT'S not a public PA but one specially installed in the pits and essential in places like Cardiff where some riders are a long way from the track and like to be reminded when their next heat (or practice session on a Friday) is coming up. It is also used to call riders to the scoreboard for the semi final and final draws, to countdown the time they need to be ready for the parade, informed when grading breaks are coming to an end, and so on. Why is is it unprofessional?

 

We used exactly that method at Junior Grass Tracks back in the 1970s.

It did work quite well then, in that situation.

 

I am not sure if Bernie Ecclestone uses this method in F1.

 

Clearly you and BSI are unaware of any advancements made in technology.

Or, do not feel they may be of use in 2015.

 

.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Grand Central

[rob tatum]

BRILLIANT POST BT TMC.

[E I Addio]

Noise wouldn't affect semaphore

Many a true word id spoken in jest. In industrial situations, in the construction industry's hand signals are still used to this day especially where there is a noisy environment. I know I am speaking with hindsight but maybe some of the communication difficulties for example between the referee and officials could have been resolved if there was some basic visual system as a back up. Sounds silly I know but if hand signals are an approved safety system for manouvring heavy loads, reversing large vehicles and shunting trains they should be adequate to ensble to ref to tell track officials whether a rider is excluded.

 

Just a thought.

[Star Lady]

Many a true word id spoken in jest. In industrial situations, in the construction industry's hand signals are still used to this day especially where there is a noisy environment. I know I am speaking with hindsight but maybe some of the communication difficulties for example between the referee and officials could have been resolved if there was some basic visual system as a back up. Sounds silly I know but if hand signals are an approved safety system for manouvring heavy loads, reversing large vehicles and shunting trains they should be adequate to ensble to ref to tell track officials whether a rider is excluded.

Just a thought.

Who said I was jesting? Didn't necessarily mean formal semaphore but coloured lollipops on sticks were used for years in speedway and as say hand signals are widely used, even to landing planes/helicopters on ships

[SCB]

When a race is stopped by the referee we use red lights and flags. I'm amazed they don't just get the referee to scream "stop" at the top of his voice in a GP though

[The White Knight]

NEVER been a problem before and the two-way radios used are about as modern as you can get. Even the telephone link between the pits and the referee's box was tough for either party to hear. Easy for people not there to comment but I have never known the ambient noise in the stadium to have such an effect on communications, especially as the referee's box was in the open. Just one of many things that on the night failed to work perfectly.

 

I know you cannot resist pointing the finger at a 'professional organising company' but there are some aspects of staging a SGP that are ultimately the responsibility of the FIM although, as previously stated, no one could really have envisaged how tough it was until the event got underway.

 

I'd love to live in your world where everyone gets everything right all the time.

Nothing in my World is 100% right 100% of the time.

 

It is though, most of the time. Mainly because I try to organize things so that they do go the way I want them to. If I muck up - which I do on occasions - I put it right and I don't make the same mistake again.

 

Would that the same could be said about the Warsaw GP.

 

I have said all along that BSI were not good for Speedway in general, and as far as I am concerned Warsaw proved me right. :sad:

[orion]

It is though, most of the time. Mainly because I try to organize things so that they do go the way I want them to. If I muck up - which I do on occasions - I put it right and I don't make the same mistake again.

Unless it's putting up fake info from Right wing websites of course

[The White Knight]

Unless it's putting up fake info from Right wing websites of course

Aaahhhh orion dear boy.

 

I forgot - you never make a mistake do you? :rofl:

 

Nice try though.