Birmingham Brummies 2015

[arnieg]

To double up between a PL & NL club at the start of the season its 4.00. If you start the season at NL only you can double up later in the season if you are below 5.00.

 

In Ellis' case, he can't start the season doubling up but if he gains a PL place later in the season he can continue riding for Birmingham.

So could a PL team name (say) Max Dilger in their team having already agreed terms with Ellis and then redeclare their team after one match?

[Woz01]

thats the idea for the rider but that's not why NL teams exist and to say it's to train riders for higher clubs is an insult to every paying fan

Its exactly why Coventry Storm exist.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Its exactly why Coventry Storm exist.

if thats what you believe then that's fine but it's simply not true ,it's a nice idea though Edited December 30, 2014 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Islander15]

if thats what you believe then that's fine but it's simply not true ,it's a nice idea though

Teams like Storm have 2 ideas: to find riders for the Bees and to be competitive enough to attract fans. If the first was the sole reason then I'd suggest that Farnaby and Ritchings wouldn't have signed as they aren't Coventry assets.

[Halifaxtiger]

So could a PL team name (say) Max Dilger in their team having already agreed terms with Ellis and then redeclare their team after one match?

 

In theory, yes. In practice

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

There are SIX stand-alone tracks (and seven stand alone clubs) in the 2015 NL. If that doesn't make it a fully fledged Third Division then I don't know what will...

As Dean says the notion that the NL is just there for the benefit of clubs in the higher divisions is a total nonsense.

[greyhoundp]

So could a PL team name (say) Max Dilger in their team having already agreed terms with Ellis and then redeclare their team after one match?

 

 

Seems that you can re declare even before one meeting, as Max Dilger has found out, but yes in Adams case it would need to be after the season has started.

Edited December 31, 2014 by greyhoundp

[Bagpuss]

In my opinion, while the third division has stand alone tracks, its main purpose in the whole structure of British speedway is and should be to train up and provide the new blood for the PL each year, who themselves should have an FTR system for NL graduates. I think its excellent news that this year the NL has so far 14 three pointers signed up and 12 sub five pointers with the likelihood of more to come with fewer riders topping up their PL earnings or journeymen third division riders with no hope of progression. It will certainly encourage me to attend more third tier meetings next year, after going to several in 2013 I didn't go to any last season. The whole thing seems much more refreshed for 2015.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Gordon Bennett

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

In my opinion, while the third division has stand alone tracks, its main purpose in the whole structure of British speedway is and should be to train up and provide the new blood for the PL each year, journeymen third division riders with no hope of progression. .

if that's its sole purpose then it is wrong to have teams and expect fans of those teams to pay to watch , the same could be achieved by having amateur meetings and getting the riders to pay to ride . And the so called journey men are often the fans favourite riders in their teams and if thats what the paying public wants then that's what the paying public should get , speedway isn't there to train anybody its entertainment that is its sole purpose and when you lose sight of that goal we might aswell give up

[Bagpuss]

A scattering of journeymen is fine, from the point of view of entertainment and giving the youngsters someone to look up to and learn from (Atkin & Armstrong for example). But the majority of this division's riders need to be up and coming IMO, and the decisions made for 2015 have gone a long way towards that. As far as I'm concerned people would rather pay to watch exciting youngsters with potential in the NL than, with respect, the likes of Campos, Cockle, Baseby, Halsey etc.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Gordon Bennett

[norwichkev]

A scattering of journeymen is fine, from the point of view of entertainment and giving the youngsters someone to look up to and learn from (Atkin & Armstrong for example). But the majority of this division's riders need to be up and coming IMO, and the decisions made for 2015 have gone a long way towards that. As far as I'm concerned people would rather pay to watch exciting youngsters with potential in the NL than, with respect, the likes of Campos, Cockle, Baseby, Halsey etc.

Yep worked for Scunny last year. WSorked so well they are repeating it this year.

 

Can't see the problem while riders still want to race and give it 100%, always great to see the Atkins of the world & Deano when he was riding. Aaron Baseby when he is on his game is a good rider at 2 and the likes of Cockle usually entertaining

 

Think its been done to death but without the riders you mention, and a few others, how would you propose the teams get balanced - more 3 pointers?

Edited December 31, 2014 by norwichkev

[25yearfan]

In 60+ years of watching speedway the formation of the 3rd Division in 1994 has in my opinion been one of the best things to ever happen to British speedway!

 

The 3rd Division in its many guises since 1994 has benefited British speedway for many reasons such as developing young riders, allowing riders not good enough for higher League racing but who can still provide good entertainment and experience for the young riders a League to race in, new tracks a lower cost level to race at to test the water and allowed former higher League tracks many of whom shut down because they couldn't afford it a League to race in and thus become active in speedway again!

 

Considering our last World champion Tai Woffiden started his League career for Scunthorpe in the 3rd Division says it all.

 

Somerset , Trelawny, IOW, and Kent all of whom had never staged League speedway before started in the 3rd Division. Would they have started without the 3rd tier being in operation? - Maybe not?

 

Former higher League tracks like Mildenhall, Rye House, Stoke, Wimbledon, Weymouth and Cradley all reopened in the 3rd tier. Terry Russell had deserted Arena Essex back in 1996 yet they were kept going by running a team in the then Conference League. I know for a fact that without the 3rd Division my local 3rd tier club Mildenhall wouldn't have reopened and I'd say its likely Rye House and Stoke would be the same.

 

Look at this upcoming season, messrs Eastbourne Eagles and Birmingham Brummies would be lost to League racing without the National League!

(Lets hope the drop down proves successful for both clubs!)

 

Would the longest serving 3rd tier club Buxton have ever ran in one of the top 2 Leagues if the 3rd tier had not been around? - Probably not!

 

The 3rd Division will always have clubs with different reasons for being there like higher League tracks 2nd teams in it to develop riders and the stand alone clubs (bar low cost Buxton) having to try and win the League in order to attract viable crowds. This upcoming seasons minimum and maximum points limit should help to keep teams closer in terms of rider strengths and stop the ridiculous Scunthrope Stags situation of last season occurring again!

 

In my area I think Mildenhall speedway in the NL offers better value for money than the nearby King's Lynn in the EL and Ipswich in the PL!

Edited December 31, 2014 by 25yearfan

[Bagpuss]

I think the balance this year looks about right. There is a place for the experienced riders, but not at the expense of up and comers. To me the NL looks much more appealing in 2015.

[Halifaxtiger]

I think the balance this year looks about right. There is a place for the experienced riders, but not at the expense of up and comers. To me the NL looks much more appealing in 2015.

 

I think so too.

 

So far, the league looks competitive, of a standard that will attract paying customers (because Dean is right, people simply won't pay to watch amateur meetings composed solely of novices) and is full of British youngsters.

 

I suspect I will watch more NL speedway this season than I have in the past couple.

[25yearfan]

Yeah I agree the balance looks good with an emphasis on pushing 3 point newcomers through. Though I suspect their will be some spread out races as the heatleaders will initially be beating most of the 3 pointers by quite a distance although you do get better by riding against superior riders.

 

Yes Deans right in that the standalones with higher outgoings can't afford to track teams of novices because they won't get crowds so you'll always have the situation of many of the standalones being stronger than the 2nd teams of higher League tracks.

 

But the big standalone teams don't always win everything - Since the modern 3rd tier started in 1994, the long gone Linlithgow who were the Scottish equivalent of Buxton won the League in 1996, followed by Peterboroughs reserve team in 1997, I think Newports reserve team won it soon after, then Oxford won it in 05, little Buxton won it not long back and didn't Scunthorpes 2nd team win a few years back?

Edited January 1, 2015 by 25yearfan

[vog]

I think the balance this year looks about right. There is a place for the experienced riders, but not at the expense of up and comers. To me the NL looks much more appealing in 2015.

 

Personally (And I apologize for hijacking the Birmingham thread) I think that such a low points limit is misguided.

 

There was already a significant gap between PL and NL, and this is only going to widen. This year, teams are going to put around 7 points on their average without even challenging for honours (As an example, Stoke finished last season on a team average of 43.6, and weren't challenging for anything in the league) While this year may see a competitive league, based solely on the number of 3 pointers, next year there will be a lot of riders on inflated averages, who simply won't be able to fit in. The averages at the end of the year always average out to around to between 42.5 and 44 per team. On that basis, with a 10 team league, 60+ points need to be dropped at the end of the year to accommodate the inflated averages that come from such a low points limit. No longer is a 3 pointer who averages 3 a good signing, because the entire team needs to add 6-7 points to its averages in order to just be an "average" team.

 

Personally, I think this will cause a lot of issues in 2016, because there will be a lot of riders who have averages around 5, who simply wouldn't have averaged that in a previous incarnation of the league, and who will find themselves without a team place.

[25yearfan]

Looking at the record books, I see that Peterboroughs reserve team once it again, Sheffields reserve team won it twice and the Bournemouth Buccanears won it so the 2nd teams of higher League tracks haven't done to badly!

Edited January 1, 2015 by 25yearfan

[berniev123]

Personally (And I apologize for hijacking the Birmingham thread) I think that such a low points limit is misguided.

 

There was already a significant gap between PL and NL, and this is only going to widen. This year, teams are going to put around 7 points on their average without even challenging for honours (As an example, Stoke finished last season on a team average of 43.6, and weren't challenging for anything in the league) While this year may see a competitive league, based solely on the number of 3 pointers, next year there will be a lot of riders on inflated averages, who simply won't be able to fit in. The averages at the end of the year always average out to around to between 42.5 and 44 per team. On that basis, with a 10 team league, 60+ points need to be dropped at the end of the year to accommodate the inflated averages that come from such a low points limit. No longer is a 3 pointer who averages 3 a good signing, because the entire team needs to add 6-7 points to its averages in order to just be an "average" team.

 

Personally, I think this will cause a lot of issues in 2016, because there will be a lot of riders who have averages around 5, who simply wouldn't have averaged that in a previous incarnation of the league, and who will find themselves without a team place.

This is my thought exactly. It looks a good idea to have 36 points to build to in 2015 then after that (2016) the trouble will start!

The points building average will have to go back to 40 in the near future to balance the books so as to speak, just like it did after the NL was formed out of the CL in about 2008.

[25yearfan]

 

Personally (And I apologize for hijacking the Birmingham thread) I think that such a low points limit is misguided.

 

There was already a significant gap between PL and NL, and this is only going to widen. This year, teams are going to put around 7 points on their average without even challenging for honours (As an example, Stoke finished last season on a team average of 43.6, and weren't challenging for anything in the league) While this year may see a competitive league, based solely on the number of 3 pointers, next year there will be a lot of riders on inflated averages, who simply won't be able to fit in. The averages at the end of the year always average out to around to between 42.5 and 44 per team. On that basis, with a 10 team league, 60+ points need to be dropped at the end of the year to accommodate the inflated averages that come from such a low points limit. No longer is a 3 pointer who averages 3 a good signing, because the entire team needs to add 6-7 points to its averages in order to just be an "average" team.

 

Personally, I think this will cause a lot of issues in 2016, because there will be a lot of riders who have averages around 5, who simply wouldn't have averaged that in a previous incarnation of the league, and who will find themselves without a team place.

The heatleaders will hold their averages at least, and the decent 3 pointers will increase theirs significantly. Some of the riders inbetween and a few 3 pointers will put more on their averages than they would have in a stronger League but the minimum ans maximum points limits were necessary cause the League has more teams so the strengths had to be better levelled out than they were in the past. Also the League couldn't afford a team doing a "Scunthorpe" and putting out an uncompetitive team which costs the others money. At the other end of the scale the maximum limit will ensure the likes of Cradley don't cherry pick all the best riders

 

Anyway come 2016 and most likely their will be a different number of teams in the National League so the points limits will need to be tweeked againi!

Edited January 1, 2015 by 25yearfan

[vog]

The heatleaders will hold their averages at least, and the decent 3 pointers will increase theirs significantly. Some of the riders inbetween and a few 3 pointers will put more on their averages than they would have in a stronger League but the minimum ans maximum points limits were necessary cause the League has more teams so the strengths had to be better levelled out than they were in the past. Also the League couldn't afford a team doing a "Scunthorpe" and putting out an uncompetitive team which costs the others money. At the other end of the scale the maximum limit will ensure the likes of Cradley don't cherry pick all the best riders

 

Anyway come 2016 and most likely their will be a different number of teams in the National League so the points limits will need to be tweeked againi!

 

The heatleaders will add to their averages. I fully expect Ellis and Perry, for example, to be 10 point riders, and Armstrong and Payne at Stoke to hit 9.

 

I have no issues with a minimum points limit to stop what happened last year, but cherry picking the best riders isn't about picking the riders with the biggest average. Had Cradely wanted to cherry pick, they could have done (And I believe they have to an extent)