g13webb Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 I'm surprised someone has not started a thread about the current way of rider averages. Because of the protected format used the Elite League last year, we now have riders of different ability but both on the similar averages. No one will argue the degree of difficult is far harder for Heat Leaders to attain decent scores, whereas 2nd string races are significantly easier. Unless rules are brought in and calculation made to give some sort of polarity in their performances, we will find the 2nd strings competing with heat leader for team spots, and therefore, they will be unable to attain a team position because there will be better riders on lower scores..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 I'm surprised someone has not started a thread about the current way of rider averages. Because of the protected format used the Elite League last year, we now have riders of different ability but both on the similar averages. No one will argue the degree of difficult is far harder for Heat Leaders to attain decent scores, whereas 2nd string races are significantly easier. Unless rules are brought in and calculation made to give some sort of polarity in their performances, we will find the 2nd strings competing with heat leader for team spots, and therefore, they will be unable to attain a team position because there will be better riders on lower scores..... Grading could be the way to go next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) I imagine this was all sorted when they came up with the new race format . Oh hang on sorry forgot this is speedway so they won't have a clue what to do & wouldn't have give it a thought sadly. Edited October 24, 2014 by Crazy robin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 What you need is grading AND a points limit. Grade the riders into five pools A, B, C, D and E. A is the out-and-out heatleaders, B is your second tier heatleaders, down to E which is your lower secondstrings. Each pool has a value: A = 32 B = 16 C = 8 D = 4 E = 2 The points limit is 62. This means you can have one rider from each pool. Alternatively, you could have three from pool B and two from pool D. Or two from pool B and three from pool C etc. This gives the teams an element of flexibility when team building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Next season the following riders will start on a 10 point average only if they stay with their current club: Darcy Ward Josh Gracjonek Shamek Pawlicki Vaclav Milik Maciej Janowski Kyle Newman All other riders will start on a 3 point average as long as they don't ride for the league champions in which case they will have a 9 point average. It's called a level playing field - all in the best interests of British Speedway! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Next season the following riders will start on a 10 point average only if they stay with their current club: Darcy Ward Josh Gracjonek Shamek Pawlicki Vaclav Milik Maciej Janowski Kyle Newman All other riders will start on a 3 point average as long as they don't ride for the league champions in which case they will have a 9 point average. It's called a level playing field - all in the best interests of British Speedway! This needs to be implemented asap! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted October 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 I like any idea that makes things better. Grading seems a good option, as do squads. The problems could be in how riders are graded and who will have that responsibility. Years ago, when everything was set in stone, the riders average were a direct indication of their ability. Three heat leaders achieved scores from 6 to11; 2nd strings from 4 to 5 and the reserves were 3 and below. Each riders performance level could be seen just by looking at their score. Grading these riders would have been so simple..... Now it completely different and the margins between riders are very minimal, but with some, their quality is miles apart. When it was thought about using a new race format with protected heats, Averages as we know them were dead in the water and will mean nothing. Grading these riders will be far more difficult. Whatever system is used, I hope it can be done fairly and accurately without any interference from outside parties....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon.c Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Some consideration would also need to be given to any rider that did not ride in the UK last year as their average would possibly now be higher than a heat leader who did ride. For example Chris Holder's average would not reflect his average based on the new fromat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 It's going to be a flaming disaster as having confidence in people doing it properly is something that takes some believing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Whether there is grading or average reassessment some will be very happy some will be upset and there will be plenty of opportunity to cry foul. Self interest will most likely be at the forefront of any discussions both for the process and the analysis of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Grading would be more lopsided than reassessment of the riders averages. Gradings have scope as mentioned above, A. 12.00-8.01 (2 per team) or (1 or per team) B. 8.00-6.01 (1) (2) C. 6.00-4.01 (2) (1) D. 4.00-3.01 (1) (2) E. 3.00- (1) (1) Either way the teams would want to set up what would happen is the teams with the biggest finances would build the team to the highest end of the riders graded average. Team on a budget would build on the lowest riders graded average. Effectively we could see a team built to an average of potentially 51 while the budget team would come to 33.06 Gradings for me is a bigger no no than squad systems At least with the current average system teams try to get close to the set team average required and the richer clubs have restrictions. With gradings the Elite League will be horrendous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 You have to grade riders objectively, otherwise you may as well stick to the lopsided averages. For example, Woffinden's average is 7.03, but he would be in Pool A, whereas riders like Scott Nicholls (7.56) and Chris Harris (7.49) would be Pool B and Simon Stead (6.92) would be Pool C 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 You have to grade riders objectively, otherwise you may as well stick to the lopsided averages. For example, Woffinden's average is 7.03, but he would be in Pool A, whereas riders like Scott Nicholls (7.56) and Chris Harris (7.49) would be Pool B and Simon Stead (6.92) would be Pool C What make you justify that reasoning though? In the British Elite League Harris is better than Woffinden as is Nicholls. With the current set of averages Woffinden being a former World Champion has no bearing. Harris also is a GP rider. What we can't do is set gradings on opinion. It has to be facts and riders facts are their current averages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 What make you justify that reasoning though? In the British Elite League Harris is better than Woffinden as is Nicholls. With the current set of averages Woffinden being a former World Champion has no bearing. Harris also is a GP rider. What we can't do is set gradings on opinion. It has to be facts and riders facts are their current averages. Woffinden had a poor season in Britain, but we all know he isn't a poor rider. He finished 6th in the Ekstraliga averages for example. Also, Woffinden is on the ascendency, whereas Nicholls and Harris are arguably declining year-on-year. If you don't set gradings based on opinionand "soft" measurements then you may as well stick with averages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 What make you justify that reasoning though? In the British Elite League Harris is better than Woffinden as is Nicholls. With the current set of averages Woffinden being a former World Champion has no bearing. Harris also is a GP rider. What we can't do is set gradings on opinion. It has to be facts and riders facts are their current averages. Absolute tosh-gradings should be done by the opinions of an independant panel-Woffinden should be in the top grade of rider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Absolute tosh-gradings should be done by the opinions of an independant panel-Woffinden should be in the top grade of rider. There's no such thing as an independent panel within the BSPA. Self interest rules. Gradings is a no go, simple as 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Woffinden had a poor season in Britain, but we all know he isn't a poor rider. He finished 6th in the Ekstraliga averages for example. Also, Woffinden is on the ascendency, whereas Nicholls and Harris are arguably declining year-on-year. If you don't set gradings based on opinionand "soft" measurements then you may as well stick with averages. I think you were spot on - nothing to argue about there. That's one of the big issues with averages - they don't show the full picture - and anyone who thinks that Harris is a better rider than Woffinden due to their averages is just plain mad! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluPanther Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 I think you were spot on - nothing to argue about there. That's one of the big issues with averages - they don't show the full picture - and anyone who thinks that Harris is a better rider than Woffinden due to their averages is just plain mad! Will be a brave person to post a difference of opinion on that now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 There's no such thing as an independent panel within the BSPA. Self interest rules. Gradings is a no go, simple as It doesn`t have to be within the BSPA though-does it ? Peter Oakes did all the assessed averages the other year-so it can be done by outsiders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy robin Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Could get Phil Morris to do it & I'm sure he'd be fair:-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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