E I Addio Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Obviously Rory will be extensively used as a replacement because he is excellent value for his average.. This is the result of another 'Half-cocked' idea where the BSPA only did half a job. When it was first announced, that the match program would be altered, mainly to assist the FTR influx, the degree of difficulty of scoring points altered depending on the position you rode in the team. It was so obvious from the start, the second strings had a far easier time than that of the heat heaters. Able to see the implications of these ideas, some of us argued this strongly, whilst others thought we were making mountains out of molehills. But, we can all see, all it has done is make the sport a bigger mockery than it already is......Because of the varying degree of difficulties, comparing the average now is non-sensible. Last year, Josh was a second string and attained his average riding in the easier races..... Rory rode all his rides in the harder selection of races and therefore attained this average against a harder degree of difficulty. Rory is a far better rider than Josh, so to allow Rory to replace Josh is totally wrong and should be outlawed immediately. How many other teams with high average second strings will get a low scoring heat leader to cover him........ Yet another nail in the coffin....... That is a fair point but what is the answer ? I can't think of one apart from dumping the FT system and they are not going to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 That is a fair point but what is the answer ? I can't think of one apart from dumping the FT system and they are not going to do that. I think the RT system is a good idea providing it was done in a fair manner. As for the equality of the second string and heat leader they have to be comparable. You can achieve anything with numbers, and as such a levy could be applied to Second Strings and heat leaders to form sort of a level playing field. For an example we could either subject the 2ndS to a 20% loading taken from his score, or add a 20% extra to the HL score. Riders in Position 1,3,and 5 have their scores multiplied at source, and likewise the 2ndS. It would be simple to implement and might take a season or 2 to get it more precise, but the principal would far outweigh the problems we have by doing nothing...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 I just hope Rory's guesting doesn't come back to haunt him at the end of the season. Let's hope a team he guests for a lot over the season doesn't beat Kings Lynn to the top of the table or even the top 4 cos of wins they wouldn't have got without his points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) The fast track system, in my opinion, should be limited to 1 team place, not 2, and it should be something that British riders have to work hard and aim for At the moment the system allows teams who are lucky with the draw (like Poole, who have arguably the best FT reserve and another potentially good one in Paul Starke) to win the meeting based on the reserves form alone. I doubt there will be many meetings this year where Kyle will score less than 10 points. If Paul continues to score 3 points per match then 13 points, give or take a few are assured from the reserve position. Think this should be on the Poole thread, not coventry. I think newman is a brilliant reserve (which again makes me wonder why he was graded so low) However I think you should be expecting more than 3 from Starke esp at home. If Sarjeant was to only score 3 then we would think it was a off night for him as when no bike problems he's good for 10. Edited April 13, 2015 by mdmc82 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) I think the RT system is a good idea providing it was done in a fair manner. As for the equality of the second string and heat leader they have to be comparable. You can achieve anything with numbers, and as such a levy could be applied to Second Strings and heat leaders to form sort of a level playing field. For an example we could either subject the 2ndS to a 20% loading taken from his score, or add a 20% extra to the HL score. Riders in Position 1,3,and 5 have their scores multiplied at source, and likewise the 2ndS. It would be simple to implement and might take a season or 2 to get it more precise, but the principal would far outweigh the problems we have by doing nothing...... Let's take Rory as an example as he is the current Flavour of the month. In theory Nicholas Porsing come on a bundle at secondstring, and get a higher average. Rory then becomes a second string but he is still the same Rory. One can also imagine Watt and North swapping roles regularly at Poole , even more so Steady and Cook at BV , then at Lakeside you potentially have Lawson , Nilsson and Kennett , all sharing the third heatleader role. They are still of the same capability but with fluctuating averages according to where they ride. If we come back to Rory, he is at the stage where he is not going to get much better and not not much worse either for a few years but his average on a low 6 could see him as heatleader or second string depending on how the rest of the team go. So how would that work? I am not knocking your ideas but you know what Speedwáy is like, as soon as any formula gets the least bit complicated people start fiddling around with it or ignoring it. The only way round it I can see is to have two sets of averages, one achieved at second string and one at heatleader but then I am defeating my own argument by making it complicated and open to fiddling. Edited April 13, 2015 by E I Addio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 This was in reply to El Addio talking about scrapping the FT system, nothing to do with Poole they were just my example I would expect more from Paul too but was being very conservative. But it just backs up my point further that the current fast track system is perhaps a little flawed... I agree esp the ranking. Even though Sarjeant is one of the strongest 2nd reserve, he is graded lowest on the tier 2 list so would be at a huge disadvantage if he was missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Simple............despite being a heat leader Rory's average is lower than both Josh and Davey's therefore is allowed regardless of the double up rule....................Besides which Dakota was made up to third heat leader as his average is higher than Josh's..............is that in simple enough terms to understand..............see the anti Poole brigade are out again...........funny when this is the Coventry thread................... RP It's not anti-Poole. It's anti-stupid rules. But it is amusing Coventry fans moaning about it. Whos riding at #4 for Coventry? Joonas Kylmakorpi! Where did he get his average last year? As a heat leader! The rules on averages ARE stupid. They should have weighted each heats to make riders averages more relevant to their skill level, now they're just random figures based on the luck of being in the right team position. About 80% of EL riders must have an average between 6 and 7. How messed up is that? Edited April 13, 2015 by SCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabbsjoe Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 It's not anti-Poole. It's anti-stupid rules. But it is amusing Coventry fans moaning about it. Whos riding at #4 for Coventry? Joonas Kylmakorpi! Where did he get his average last year? As a heat leader! The rules on averages ARE stupid. They should have weighted each heats to make riders averages more relevant to their skill level, now they're just random figures based on the luck of being in the right team position. About 80% of EL riders must have an average between 6 and 7. How messed up is that? a good example of this is wolves team, so far our top 2 scorers (albeit only from 2 meetings) are our second strings PK and Wells. we have a heat leader in Thorssell who isn't a heat leader at all but has that average due to riding as a second string last season where as Wells gained his riding as a heat leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted April 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 It's not anti-Poole. It's anti-stupid rules. But it is amusing Coventry fans moaning about it. Whos riding at #4 for Coventry? Joonas Kylmakorpi! Where did he get his average last year? As a heat leader! The rules on averages ARE stupid. They should have weighted each heats to make riders averages more relevant to their skill level, now they're just random figures based on the luck of being in the right team position. About 80% of EL riders must have an average between 6 and 7. How messed up is that? We shouldn't moan especially if we replace Robbo with a 6pt rider in May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 We shouldn't moan especially if we replace Robbo with a 6pt rider in May. We should moan about the rules because they're crap. We shouldn't moan about a specific instance going against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 Let's take Rory as an example as he is the current Flavour of the month. In theory Nicholas Porsing come on a bundle at secondstring, and get a higher average. Rory then becomes a second string but he is still the same Rory. One can also imagine Watt and North swapping roles regularly at Poole , even more so Steady and Cook at BV , then at Lakeside you potentially have Lawson , Nilsson and Kennett , all sharing the third heatleader role. They are still of the same capability but with fluctuating averages according to where they ride. If we come back to Rory, he is at the stage where he is not going to get much better and not not much worse either for a few years but his average on a low 6 could see him as heatleader or second string depending on how the rest of the team go. So how would that work? I am not knocking your ideas but you know what Speedwáy is like, as soon as any formula gets the least bit complicated people start fiddling around with it or ignoring it. The only way round it I can see is to have two sets of averages, one achieved at second string and one at heatleader but then I am defeating my own argument by making it complicated and open to fiddling. I understand what you say, but each of the examples you used has been created by the new format. Rory is far better rider than Porsing, but his average is not reflective of his ability because of the direct result of having all his rides against opposing heat leaders. Porsing on the other hand has a much easier program that gives that false impression that he is equal to. Over the years this sport has installed many flaws, and this is just another of that long list. The sport needs stability, we need sensibility and above all we need credibility. What we don't want is contradictory rules, that doesn't separate good riders from lesser ones. we want averages that indicate the riders ability, and so teams can be built on a similar structure. And one more thing, we want solid rules set in stone every year, so each and everyone will know the rules......... probably then the sport might get some creditability back.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 It was so obvious that this was going to happen when the new race format was first announced over a year ago that it must have been ignored so that certain teams could benefit. As SCB says a simple weighting applied to certain heats would clear this all up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 It's not anti-Poole. It's anti-stupid rules. But it is amusing Coventry fans moaning about it. Whos riding at #4 for Coventry? Joonas Kylmakorpi! Where did he get his average last year? As a heat leader! The rules on averages ARE stupid. They should have weighted each heats to make riders averages more relevant to their skill level, now they're just random figures based on the luck of being in the right team position. About 80% of EL riders must have an average between 6 and 7. How messed up is that? For once I agree with you.................yes it does make a mockery of the rules on averages............. RP PS @GRW..................when I said it was simple I put it in easy terms so anyone could understand...............I take offence at your comment about my mentality being simple...............far from it..............don't criticise who and what you don't know............for all you know I could be a brain surgeon............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbobee Posted April 13, 2015 Report Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) For once I agree with you.................yes it does make a mockery of the rules on averages............. RP PS @GRW..................when I said it was simple I put it in easy terms so anyone could understand...............I take offence at your comment about my mentality being simple...............far from it..............don't criticise who and what you don't know............for all you know I could be a brain surgeon............... Agree with your statement although 'brain surgeon' is a bit ott isn't it? Edited April 13, 2015 by Robbobee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 For once I agree with you.................yes it does make a mockery of the rules on averages............. RP PS @GRW..................when I said it was simple I put it in easy terms so anyone could understand...............I take offence at your comment about my mentality being simple...............far from it..............don't criticise who and what you don't know............for all you know I could be a brain surgeon............... No offence was intended, I was replying to the insinuation, that you thought we were all stupid. As you said, I too am no brain surgeon but I don't need things spelt out to me. I understand the rules and the way they are being used. But still think they're rubbish. Just wish the BSPA would do something good for a change.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 No offence was intended, I was replying to the insinuation, that you thought we were all stupid. As you said, I too am no brain surgeon but I don't need things spelt out to me. I understand the rules and the way they are being used. But still think they're rubbish. Just wish the BSPA would do something good for a change.......... Thanks for that.............it just came across that some people did not understand who was being replaced by who and why.............and I agree the powers that be do need to get their act together................... RP PS actually I am a complaints technician for a mobile phone company.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 PS actually I am a complaints technician for a mobile phone company.............. I would just love to listen in if you ever got a complaint from SCB. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 I would just love to listen in if you ever got a complaint from SCB. I think we all would...............listening to calls is interesting...........but I can never listen to my own............. RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) the teams that are going to benefit are the teams that dont have a raceday similar to others...therefore the choice of good guest enhanced. IRR is another one to watch , teams pulling riders out with maybe not a bad injury because there better off going with IRR as a top rider on form would be eligable to take a ride if these things were to happen in the play offs , how do you explain to new fans? Another point is there was a lot of talk about having one set race night for the elite how would a team be able to get a guest if they have there number one out injured? guest system would be redundant... Edited April 15, 2015 by heathen chemistry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Squads. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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