Cost Cutting - How

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Would it ever get approved the Dean? - It would be brilliant if it did.

 

probly not .it is being tested and there is no reason why it shouldnt but our sport is full of inward thinking people who have their pockets at heart rather than the sport. However there are some people in the sport who believe now is the perfect timing for this ,so we can hope. Its got to work because cost are out of control .it needs to be a stock engine with aproved parts that can not be modified in any way .the only things than can be adjusted are compression and valve timing . so what if GM suffer ,GM isnt speedways problem .speedway is not their biggest market anyway is it ?. I really have done almost every job in speedway and i do put way to much time into it ,i have no fanicial intrest in this project so im not biased about it but it is a great idea that the sport needs to be a sucess . Edited October 22, 2014 by THE DEAN MACHINE

[Guest]

 

Are we only looking at this "engine debate' from a UK angle? How can it be implemented worldwide and would non-UK linked riders accept these changes just to satisfy the needs of British speedway.

On Facebook I see action photos from many countries - no signs there either of Air Fences...although that's possibly a different theme at the moment to the current debate?

 

I still have not see how we can make speedway cheaper worldwide - and as I said many tracks worldwide still do not have - nor from what I see in Facebook comments - intend to have Air Fences. How can we make a lone stand on this issue - I agree costs need to be reduced. As is emphasised by others in this topic it is a matter that needs to be addressed urgently.

[ciderman]

GOOD points well made

 

Couple of things I have seen on here where riders are criticised perhaps unfairly.

 

Everybody did used to use a car with a bike rack, however had the option been there at the time to run a van that cost no more than a car and was just as fast they all would have been in vans. The Renault Trafic we owned was better on fuel and as practical for everyday use as my wifes Megane. It even went in multi story car parks without problems. With riders required to have two bikes at a meeting these days a van is the only option anyway really and there is no cost cutting to be had by using a car.

 

Sign writing, undoubtedly some riders have it for the ego boost but for my lad and I'm sure many others the van was sign written because a sponsor wanted it to be, it is definitely an attraction to sponsors to have a travelling billboard.

 

For us travelling and time off work was the killer cost not engines. Difficult to see how to get around that when tracks mostly have to run when the landlord allows.

 

The idea of a standard engine seems a good one, however as you never get two engines to run identically those with money to waste will buy several engines, select the best and sell the others on. I doubt GM would survive if Jawa were the sole engine for league racing and how long would it be before the price of the Jawa started to rise if they had a monopoly?

 

I like the idea of engines having to be sold at say 125% of standard cost. Even better if complete bikes had a price put on them, that would really discourage people spending unnecessary money on bikes.

 

The rev limiter is a great idea imo, might be easily fiddled by an electronics wizard but its even easier to check at any time by any bloke with a rev counter.

 

Riders could help the costs for themselves by learning to do basic servicing (and by learning that bikes screaming on the stand are wearing out rapidly!).

 

Clubs owning and maintaining bikes would be OK until the end of the first season when the winning teams would be accused of cheating by the fans of every other team. This would then be killing the sport because the BSPA are useless and it was much better when riders had their own engines and you knew they weren't being stitched up by the promoters!

Both teams turn up with lets say 7 engines each. Whats to stop all the engines being given No's say 1 to 14 and riders draw straws with No's on - therefore they could get an engine belonging to the opposite team, it would then be pointless for any team to cheat on engine builds as the opposite team may benefit.

[greyhoundp]

Its time the BSPA looked inwards rather than towards Frauds vision of winning the (European Cup) this is not the time for it, Speedway is like a dying Duck at the moment (barely keeping afloat) here in the UK. The engines have to be lower power, and cheaper to maintain. If the riders dont like it, then there is Poland, Sweden and Denmark to ride in. Im hearing a single race night is going to be the way forward for The Elite League (Monday) that in itself isnt going to solve Speedways problems in the UK, thats pampering to Frauds vision, The fact is The Majority of Teams in the UK cant afford the highest earning riders anyway, gates of 800 to 1000 at £17 to £20 are uneconomic, we have to cut our cloth accordingly.

 

Check out the facts, a dwindling supporter base, average age alarmingly high, Supporters costs going through the roof, Rider costs spiraling, Those all need to be addressed before we even look at the product itself, Double Uppers,Treble Uppers, Double Points, Guests, Time between races, Presentation, Track Prep, all need to be looked at improved or done away with, its the Whole Package that needs improving.

 

The BSPA really needs to look at the bigger picture but within the UK, can they do it ? (yes they can) will they do it ? I very much doubt it.

[Bream]

New engine that you arent allowed to touch?! from Jawa?! They cant even make two engines the same. When I rode I had two 884s. Both factory standard, both totally different from each other. First one was ok, had torque to go around. Not a GM but ok. Other one was crap from day one. Always jumped around and was very difficult to ride. Used both of them for years, they were rebuild many times. One was ok, one wasnt, both were crap compared to tuner built GM. CNC work on cylinder head could have helped, maybe. What would happen to speedway if there would be engines that you arent allowed to "touch". You have to buy 10 engines to find one good one to use. It is something else than engines that is wrong in UK speedway. In motocross, even low level, only suspension work per season costs almost the same as riding low level speedway.

 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Bream

[Guest]

Would the FIM allow British Speedway to use bikes/engines/whatever that do not match international guidelines for the sport?

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

New engine that you arent allowed to touch?! from Jawa?! They cant even make two engines the same. When I rode I had two 884s. Both factory standard, both totally different from each other. First one was ok, had torque to go around. Not a GM but ok. Other one was crap from day one. Always jumped around and was very difficult to ride. Used both of them for years, they were rebuild many times. One was ok, one wasnt, both were crap compared to tuner built GM. CNC work on cylinder head could have helped, maybe. What would happen to speedway if there would be engines that you arent allowed to "touch". You have to buy 10 engines to find one good one to use. It is something else than engines that is wrong in UK speedway. In motocross, even low level, only suspension work per season costs almost the same as riding low level speedway.

and thats exactly the attitude why the sport is where it is. It can work and it will work. Personally i dont believe f2 bikes are the answer but to dismiss them as speedway has without fiving them a try is just wrong. I have raced at all league levels for 20 years been a mechanic for about 10 years and did my own engines plus a few others for 10 years so im aware of differences in engines but i also know that despite what a rider will tell you ,most of the difference is in the head of the rider rather than the head of the engine

[speedibee]

probly not .it is being tested and there is no reason why it shouldnt but our sport is full of inward thinking people who have their pockets at heart rather than the sport. However there are some people in the sport who believe now is the perfect timing for this ,so we can hope. Its got to work because cost are out of control .it needs to be a stock engine with aproved parts that can not be modified in any way .the only things than can be adjusted are compression and valve timing . so what if GM suffer ,GM isnt speedways problem .speedway is not their biggest market anyway is it ?. I really have done almost every job in speedway and i do put way to much time into it ,i have no fanicial intrest in this project so im not biased about it but it is a great idea that the sport needs to be a sucess .

problem is the BSPA will want experts Like Petert Johns and Cribby to be part of the evaluation process . and it dont take a genius to work out what their opinion will be . the Bspa would soon be announcing we have had experts looking into this and they said their bank accounts would suffer far too much .so unfortunatley they cannot approve . I would like to see theese engines tested by riders who are not sponsored by engine tuners , preferably Premier league riders and a couple of recently retired riders who are/were at the sharp end of racing on a budget . Elite riders and above dont really have the problem so much of finance, so their opinion would be more of whats best for them and less of what cuts cost for the bread and butter riders .

Edited October 23, 2014 by speedibee

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

problem is the BSPA will want experts Like Petert Johns and Cribby to be part of the evaluation process . and it dont take a genius to work out what their opinion will be . the Bspa would soon be announcing we have had experts looking into this and they said their bank accounts would suffer far too much .so unfortunatley they cannot approve . I would like to see theese engines tested by riders who are not sponsored by engine tuners , preferably Premier league riders and a couple of recently retired riders who are/were at the sharp end of racing on a budget . Elite riders and above dont really have the problem so much of finance, so their opinion would be more of whats best for them and less of what cuts cost for the bread and butter riders .

i repect what peter johns has achieved as a rider and as a tuner. He is the best and is the current fad tuner but what is it doing for soeedway?

[BWitcher]

i repect what peter johns has achieved as a rider and as a tuner. He is the best and is the current fad tuner but what is it doing for soeedway?

 

It's another convenient excuse to blame someone like Peter Johns.

 

The problem lies within.

 

Utter lack of promotional ideas, organisation and in some cases application of rules is what has consistently dragged British speedway down. That causes fans to walk away from the sport, which then creates a spiral, where instead of identifying WHY they are walking away and FIXING it, they simply cut costs and make the product weaker.. which in turn causes more fans to walk away.. and the process continues year after year after year.

[stratton]

It's another convenient excuse to blame someone like Peter Johns.

 

The problem lies within.

 

Utter lack of promotional ideas, organisation and in some cases application of rules is what has consistently dragged British speedway down. That causes fans to walk away from the sport, which then creates a spiral, where instead of identifying WHY they are walking away and FIXING it, they simply cut costs and make the product weaker.. which in turn causes more fans to walk away.. and the process continues year after year after year.

You would think there would be a way for supporters to have a input and talk with the promoters.(ie) try to make this great sport better it is so frustrating.You wait on year on year changes made without the customer having any say how many other businesses don't listen to there customers.?

[SGP]

AGREE with what Phil said; without continuity between all countries then applying any kind of restriction, whether it be wages or equipment, simply wont work.

 

And as per my earlier post, 'top riders' would simply leave out the UK - they wouldn't work for less, especially with no let-up in fixtures.

 

Whilst it may be good for the youth development, it would do nothing for a rider who would've come through the system. The UK with such a cost-cutting programme would simply become a feeder system to the other countries. The UK would allow riders to learn and race, then when they got to a top level, we'd wave them goodbye because the cost-cutting that allowed them to learn would then be not enough for them to further their careers.

 

This is what I meant by watering down the product. Without an agreement by all countries, the UK would simply fail - which it's doing already anyway.

Edited October 23, 2014 by SGP

[Bruiser McHuge]

i repect what peter johns has achieved as a rider and as a tuner. He is the best and is the current fad tuner but what is it doing for soeedway?

To be fair to Peter Johns I think he's more than a fad...he was doing bikes for riders like Todd Wiltshire and Craig Boyce about 25 years ago ..so a long fad !

Seriously though , there are fads and if something is seen as successful then others want to try it and tuners come in and out of fashion...

I remember Carl Blomfeldt being the man when Ermolenko was at the top...everybody wanted Blomfeldt tuned engines..there was a fad for using German tuners...I think even riders who knew their stuff , like Sean Wilson used Lattenhammer.....the cost must have been horrendous and by all accounts it's still going on...

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

To be fair to Peter Johns I think he's more than a fad...he was doing bikes for riders like Todd Wiltshire and Craig Boyce about 25 years ago ..so a long fad

what i meant by fad was he is the current in vogue tumer like ashtec and bloomfelt before. Wasnt knocking his tuning history or capability

To be fair to Peter Johns I think he's more than a fad...he was doing bikes for riders like Todd Wiltshire and Craig Boyce about 25 years ago ..so a long fad

what i meant by fad was he is the current in vogue tumer like ashtec and bloomfelt before. Wasnt knocking his tuning history or capability

[ch958]

 

It's another convenient excuse to blame someone like Peter Johns.

 

The problem lies within.

 

Utter lack of promotional ideas, organisation and in some cases application of rules is what has consistently dragged British speedway down. That causes fans to walk away from the sport, which then creates a spiral, where instead of identifying WHY they are walking away and FIXING it, they simply cut costs and make the product weaker.. which in turn causes more fans to walk away.. and the process continues year after year after year.

 

 

yes cos the sport would be much better if the bikes did 120mph

[SGP]

 

 

yes cos the sport would be much better if the bikes did 120mph

YOU'RE not grasping it are you? Any cost cutting without an agreement across Europe, simply wont work.

 

The best thing the UK can do is restructure the leagues; get an independent governing body and attract a marketing company to promote the product with no vested interests. Clubs themselves clearly aren't capable.

 

People will say all the above would cost money and won't happen; but what other option does it have? None! Stay as it is and fails. Cost-cut and it fails.

[ch958]

no i am grasping it and i understand that Europe wide it would be hard to get agreement

 

how about this: if you want to ride in UK you use the cheap bike as specified for the rates on offer - if not ta ta

 

Cost cut the engines and we won't even notice

 

i do agree about marketing, etc but you're asking for investment for that and i doubt anyone would want to risk it

 

and of course - market what? - crap tracks, guests, bog hole stadiums, micky mouse rules, etc etc

[speedibee]

 

It's another convenient excuse to blame someone like Peter Johns.

 

The problem lies within.

 

Utter lack of promotional ideas, organisation and in some cases application of rules is what has consistently dragged British speedway down. That causes fans to walk away from the sport, which then creates a spiral, where instead of identifying WHY they are walking away and FIXING it, they simply cut costs and make the product weaker.. which in turn causes more fans to walk away.. and the process continues year after year after year.

I assume from you jumpping to the defence of Peter Johns . you have never been on the receiving end of one of his bills . In fact I doubt you have ever even seen one . and what you are suggesting is better promotion etc so larger crowds can indirectly hand over more money to tuners . in any case we are speaking of whats best for speedway and not chosen few who can afford or are sponsored by tuners who then pass the cost on to ordinary mortals . supertuned engines full of expensive titanium parts are a luxury that only a few riders can afford and speedway can't afford them at all ,

[Bream]

If you want to ban something I would point my finger at titanium and carbon fiber.

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

If you want to ban something I would point my finger at titanium and carbon fiber.

 

i agree about titanium it should not be allowed but the carbon fiber parts you get from poland and czech are cheaper than the alloy or fiberglass equivalant over here . Edited October 23, 2014 by THE DEAN MACHINE