SteveLyric2 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Possibly, but like I said, that isn't the case with Darcy, it applies to club competition as well. It doesn't specify that in the FIM statement - as I've said before it doesn't mention any club or league - purely an individual punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 It doesn't specify that in the FIM statement - as I've said before it doesn't mention any club or league - purely an individual punishment. "with all resulting consequences" and it doesn't specify individual either Just remind us which teams have kept their match points when illegal riders have been removed from the results. That was the teams' fault? Maybe in some cases but not all. How about last season's EL when teams that did nothing wrong had points deducted when Birmingham folded? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 It doesn't specify that in the FIM statement - as I've said before it doesn't mention any club or league - purely an individual punishment. If its only an individual thing, why isnt he riding for Poole this season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tellboy Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Bloody good job Lynn didn't finish 5th and Poole 4th on those same points,what would have happened then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 You're comparing a speedway team who used a rider who was at the time lawfully eligible to ride for his club, to a solo cyclist who illegally gained 7 Tour De France titles off the back of an extensive 10 year doping campaign? You do make me laugh! You're far nuttier than I thought. Nutty? I'd say someone who is nutty who consistently posts on a discussion regarding an FIM statement, that it then transpires on numerous occasions they haven't even read. Ward wasn't actually 100% eligible to ride at the time, him riding came with a risk that if he was found guilty his pts could be deducted. His teams would have been aware of this but still proceeded to track him anyway. As for Armstrong, it has been claimed that it would be unfair on fans to change the results.. I used him as an example because it is a far bigger sport with far more fans and far more historical meaning.. but it didn't stop them changing the result. So, yes, it is a perfect rebuttal of the point raised.. not my problem if you are unable to understand that. It doesn't specify that in the FIM statement - as I've said before it doesn't mention any club or league - purely an individual punishment. So why are his pts being removed in Sweden? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 You're barmy BWitcher. Until he is officially suspended he has every right to ride wherever he pleases. Lance Armstrong isn't even remotely comparable, a very stupid comparison really. You're the one who complained changing results isn't fair of fans, not me. Changing the Lance Armstrong results has a hell of a lot more impact than a minor comp such as the EL, so he was used to render YOUR point irrelevant. You can call people barmy, spout out your nonsense as much as you want. The FIM disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Changing the results is fine, removing the title is not. Like I said, the only fair option is to rerun the play offs, which obviously isn't possible. Lance Armstrong is completely irrelevant so stop banging on about him lol.. so you want to change results, but not change what those results mean! Brilliant logic! You agree that the only FAIR option is to re-run the playoffs. But you're happy for Poole to UNFAIRLY have the title. As for Armstrong, yes irrelevant, as was your argument about the fans, at least you agree on that point. So essentially what you're telling us you think its fine for a team to UNFAIRLY be league champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YerRopes Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 You're barmy BWitcher. Until he is officially suspended he has every right to ride wherever he pleases. Lance Armstrong isn't even remotely comparable, a very stupid comparison really. Lance Armstrong WAS my all time sporting hero, his first book about his battle with cancer and the success he strived for and subsequently achieved was quite inspirational... But as it turns out, he cheated and broke the rules, admittedly with performance enhancing drugs rather than alcohol and everything was quite rightly stripped away from him ! As for Darcy, I believe it was declared early on that any points scored after his failure of the alcohol tests would be removed, this I understand has not happened in the EL but as it turns out Poole had no right to take first pick in the 2014 PO's because Kings Lynn won the League (not Poole), so the 2014 PO's become null and void.. This is Poole's fault for continuing to use Darcy Ward, whilst at the same time Darcy must take his fair share of the blame for being unable to resist the temptation to get 'pissed' immediately prior to a GP - if he had any sense he would have feigned injury and pulled out beforehand... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 This is Poole's fault for continuing to use Darcy Ward, whilst at the same time if he had any sense Think it's been comprehensively proven that is something he lacks in abundance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Are you struggling to read ? The FIM have declared the points scored between offence and suspension void. These points are to be removed "with all resulting consequences" Darcy's points in this spell were the difference between Poole topping the table or Kings Lynn The "consequences" of this are that Pool now didn't top the league, Kings Lynn did and the semi final was drawn and raced incorrectly which in effect voids the competition. Whether you agree with the ruling or not that is where we are, it isn't rubbish, it is just what has been decided You were doing so well to the point where you said about voiding the competition. I think YOU are struggling to read. You said that common sense says revert to the final league table and declare KL the champions - that is your opinion nothing else. Why would the competition be void? Where does it say that? Again that is your opinion and has nothing to do with common sense and it hasn't been decided - except in your head! Poole are 2014 EL champions - no asterisk, no voiding - champions - FACT! Is that clear enough for you now? Possibly, but like I said, that isn't the case with Darcy, it applies to club competition as well. Where does it say that? I'll help you out - it doesn't! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 No... I'm saying if we changed the results, all that would have been affected would be the draw. So the only way to fairly resolve this would be to rerun the play offs with a new draw, which obviously we cannot do. It is impossible to say who would have won the league with a different draw (although it would probably still have been Poole). It wouldn't be fair to take the title from Poole. Perhaps a more fair option would be to impose some form of penalty on this years team. So you admit Poole won the title unfairly last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Panda Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Lance Armstrong WAS my all time sporting hero, his first book about his battle with cancer and the success he strived for and subsequently achieved was quite inspirational... But as it turns out, he cheated and broke the rules, admittedly with performance enhancing drugs rather than alcohol and everything was quite rightly stripped away from him ! As for Darcy, I believe it was declared early on that any points scored after his failure of the alcohol tests would be removed, this I understand has not happened in the EL but as it turns out Poole had no right to take first pick in the 2014 PO's because Kings Lynn won the League (not Poole), so the 2014 PO's become null and void.. This is Poole's fault for continuing to use Darcy Ward, whilst at the same time Darcy must take his fair share of the blame for being unable to resist the temptation to get 'pissed' immediately prior to a GP - if he had any sense he would have feigned injury and pulled out beforehand... You are spot on with what was said about the points for Darcy being deducted early on as I tried to explain to Bwitcher but they were having none of it..............the only thing I will add to that is that it was only Darcy that was penalised...........because the issue did not happen in a league meeting the powers that been only penalised the rider but not the team.............yes it affected the scores of two meetings I agree but why should Poole be penalised for something that they physically had nothing to do with................ It is not Poole's fault they used Ward.............they were entitled to do so as at the time he was not suspended............. I wouldn't say Poole won it unfairly as it was completely legal to use Darcy ward up until he was officially suspended and it would be unfair to remove points scored by a rider that was entitled to ride up until his suspension. The team declarations were accepted before any match Darcy competed in, the results of each match Darcy competed in were declared and counted towards their Elite League position, and Poole's title win was entirely fair and legal. However, rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) the FIM have asked for his points to be removed. Obviously we cannot rerun the play offs and we cannot simply pick somebody else to be champions, so the only acceptable outcome in my opinion would be to impose a penalty on this years side instead. Ummmmmm no................as above what Darcy did was outside of the league environment..............the team should not be penalised for his actions away from the team................ RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I wouldn't say Poole won it unfairly as it was completely legal to use Darcy ward up until he was officially suspended and it would be unfair to remove points scored by a rider that was entitled to ride up until his suspension. However, rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) the FIM have asked for his points to be removed. Obviously we cannot rerun the play offs and we cannot simply pick somebody else to be champions, so the only acceptable outcome in my opinion would be to impose a penalty on this years side instead. The FIM have made the decision clear. It's no good penalising Poole now. But the point remains that thus verdict makes last year's play offs null and void and should therefore be awarded to the team that finished top of the EL prior to the play offs as the next best thing (with wards points removed , Poole's total amended and a new updated finishing league table released). The team should not be penalised for his actions away from the team................ RP Why not? The statement clearly states points should be removed for all competitions he took part in. Last time I looked Poole rode in a competition called the EL or do you just conveniently want to ignore that part? I'd say the latter is more apt for your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I agree that their decision means the play offs draws were invalid, but I don't agree that the team that finished top should be awarded the title. There was never any focus on finishing first as teams were only targeting a top four finish. The only "fair" option in my opinion is to remove Poole's title and declare no winner at all for that season, or penalise Poole in some way this season so at least the integrity of the play off finals are retained. I think penalising this years side would be the most fair and sensible option, and would perhaps feel more just and rewarding to those who feel Poole didn't deserve to win the title. Now we're pretty much in agreement. Either no winner as per the record books, or at the very very least an * next to Poole with an explanation. For what it's worth I don't think this years team should be punished at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think the only fair outcome here is that Poole should lose their title and it should be handed to the runners up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think the only fair outcome here is that Poole should lose their title and it should be handed to the runners up. I'm sure that's a completely unbiased viewpoint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Jones Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 ..........because the issue did not happen in a league meeting the powers that been only penalised the rider but not the team.............yes it affected the scores of two meetings I agree but why should Poole be penalised for something that they physically had nothing to do with................ Remind me which teams have had iilegal riders scores expunged without affecting the match score, and while your at it which rules had the EL teams broken that had points gained against Birmingham deducted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starman2006 Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 The FIM have made the decision clear. It's no good penalising Poole now. But the point remains that thus verdict makes last year's play offs null and void and should therefore be awarded to the team that finished top of the EL prior to the play offs as the next best thing (with wards points removed , Poole's total amended and a new updated finishing league table released). You and you sad cronies would love that wouldn't you...Not goin to happen though pal. So keep dreaming. Don't forget we will be expecting your congratulations when we win our 7th league title and 3rd on the trotski come October, Its the right thing to do, you know it makes sense !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris4gillian Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 You and you sad cronies would love that wouldn't you...Not goin to happen though pal. So keep dreaming. Don't forget we will be expecting your congratulations when we win our 7th league title and 3rd on the trotski come October, Its the right thing to do, you know it makes sense !! Is that written by a 10 yr old,,? Yep 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Trying to have a logical discussion with these Poole fans is like pushing water uphill with a rake. Amazing. This quote perfectly sums them up. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt". 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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