heathen chemistry Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 the premier league teams want to be able to sign the match winning foreigners on a fake low average , ie brady kurtz also the elite are happy to let them because when these riders decide to either double up or go up to the elite league they are still on fake low averages due to the conversion rate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted September 9, 2014 Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 I don't like the system..there is too much unevenness with the riders ability and teams with strong FTR riders have far too much of an advantage......and I don't even feel the likes of Garrity have even ridden proper Elite League this season....for a quality rider there are too many easy heats and good scores actually mask which riders they have actually beaten to get that score....good scores don't always mean good learning...the better riders are learning much more in the Premier League where they are facing much tougher heats ...to me the fast track system doesn't do much to actually bring on a rider....good riders will progress anyway but the fast track system just allows a false sense of security making some riders appear much better than they actually are and that's no way to progress internationally if that's the real long term aim I don't agree. Many of them say they have learned a lot be being with top riders. Many of the young one were absolutely clueless on the technicalities of things like set-ups when they came up to the Eite league. Take Ben Morley for example. In the early part of the season they set his bike up like Dave Watts and he wasn't fast enough, so they set it up like Lewis Bridgers and he started flying, so he has learned that what works for one rider doesn't work for another and learned how to work out set-ups. He then took that knowledge back to Kent where he went up to number 1 so slowly the standard is being raised by the trickle down effect. There are many similar examples. The FTDR is not perfect and needs some fine tuning, but IMO it should be viewed as work in progress rather than something to be scrapped. Personally I think there have been some good races where FTDR riders have beaten quite good second strings, and to my mind its no worse than the old system where one side could have Martin Smolinski at reserve coming out 6 or 7 races and banging in 15 or 16 points that swung the match, and another side having a reserve like Ales Dryml plodding round at the back, being lucky to score 1 or 2. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shale Searcher Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 (edited) Perhaps Garrity, Kerr, Newman, Blackbird, Worrall etc haven't learned much but I'd suggest that Sarjeant, Rose, Clegg, Morley and Greaves most certainly have. And I'd much rather see these types of riders at reserve in the EL than some of the foreign gash who have filled those spots in recent seasons. The FTR scheme certainly isnt perfect and it needs tweaking but its absolutely been a step in the right direction. You are spot on GB! The system absolutely needs retaining, but fine tuning.... including a route into the main body of the team if their ability improves to the level required, perhaps to replace an injured second string? We need to be encouraging the young Brits as much as we can and be getting shot of the over hyped, overpaid, under performing, poor quality foreigners that ride over here.... and yes, the PL need to be on-board for this system to function the way it is intended to.... Edited September 10, 2014 by Shale Searcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theblueboy Posted September 10, 2014 Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 You cannot measure the success of the FTR after 1 season. Personally, I was sceptical about what it would bring to British speedway. Looking at this from a Swindon perspective, Worrall has week on week developed into an excellent reserve. His confidence has risen as the season has progressed, he is now banging in big scores in all leagues and to be honest, without him, Swindon would not have made the play offs. Greaves who, considering he is only 16, has shown enough that one day, he will be a decent rider. His ability to stay on the bike is questionable and his gating at times is shocking, however, so is Bomber's and he has turned out a decent speedway rider. From a league perspective I have been impressed by Starke, Wright and Sargeant. Newman, Kerr and Garrity would be as everyone thought and I haven't seen much of Blackbird as I missed the Eagles early in the season and he failed to ride 2nd time round. I definitely think we should continue in this vein for another 3 or 4 seasons to truly measure the progress of these riders. At that point, people will see if riders are progressing as they should be or not. As others have stated, bring in Auty, Roynon and Birks and all teams have a chance to pick someone with 2-3 years experience competing at a lowish level. People bemoan the fact that we have no decent Brits competing at the highest level, well until we put them first and give them the opportunity to compete at the highest level, against similar riders, we still wont! The Poles and Swedes do it every year just we, as a league, have been too stupid to recognise this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 You cannot measure the success of the FTR after 1 season. Personally, I was sceptical about what it would bring to British speedway. Looking at this from a Swindon perspective, Worrall has week on week developed into an excellent reserve. His confidence has risen as the season has progressed, he is now banging in big scores in all leagues and to be honest, without him, Swindon would not have made the play offs. Greaves who, considering he is only 16, has shown enough that one day, he will be a decent rider. His ability to stay on the bike is questionable and his gating at times is shocking, however, so is Bomber's and he has turned out a decent speedway rider. From a league perspective I have been impressed by Starke, Wright and Sargeant. Newman, Kerr and Garrity would be as everyone thought and I haven't seen much of Blackbird as I missed the Eagles early in the season and he failed to ride 2nd time round. I definitely think we should continue in this vein for another 3 or 4 seasons to truly measure the progress of these riders. At that point, people will see if riders are progressing as they should be or not. As others have stated, bring in Auty, Roynon and Birks and all teams have a chance to pick someone with 2-3 years experience competing at a lowish level. People bemoan the fact that we have no decent Brits competing at the highest level, well until we put them first and give them the opportunity to compete at the highest level, against similar riders, we still wont! The Poles and Swedes do it every year just we, as a league, have been too stupid to recognise this. all true......but people still moan about the elite not being elite yet... poland have u21 youngsters in there teams at 6/7 ..isnt poland the toughest league in the world? what has happened in poland since they introduced u21 youngsters at 6/7 like i posted before , ideally you could have the top draft riders in the elite , and the draft riders that are gauged a step below be reserve in premier league then they move up to elite as they progress etc....but the premier league want to be able to sign the 'killer' reserve from overseas (on a fake low average) elite clubs are happy to let that happen because when they decide to double up/move up to elite they are still on a fake low average in fact some go to premier first deliberately to get the low average for when they move to elite..... it all stinks , british speedway needs someone to grasp the nettle ,until they end the winning means everything mentality british speedway is only going one way all clubs from all leagues need to work together for the sake of the sport in this country ,at the moment its every team for yourself , the doubling up situation has got out of hand , there are way too many guests , elite league clubs fielding teams that are made of 90 percent premier league riders , bit charging elite prices....... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steven101 Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 poland have u21 youngsters in there teams at 6/7 ..isnt poland the toughest league in the world? Torun also have ward, holder, gollob, miedzinski and sayfutdinov. That is a team. Elite need to bring in a squad system but there just no money at too many clubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Torun also have ward, holder, gollob, miedzinski and sayfutdinov. That is a team. Elite need to bring in a squad system but there just no money at too many clubs precisely my point , teams being that strong yet look how well the polish youngsters are improving riding against the top stars squads wont work here we simply carnt afford a squad of riders like poland theres not enough top riders wanting or commited enought to ride over here and even if there was clubs carnt afford them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 (edited) Thought it was quite clear. Forget it, let's move on. Bet you can't get the last word in Edited September 11, 2014 by Crump99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semion Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Torun also have ward, holder, gollob, miedzinski and sayfutdinov. That is a team. Elite need to bring in a squad system but there just no money at too many clubs Have this team won the Polish League or made it through to the play-offs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 RE : squads........ another point is the rich teams ie poole are gonna buy up all the best riders , brady kurtz the next to be signed which joins a growing list of stars meaning less for other teams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Bet you can't get the last word in What a surprise to see the usual busy body appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 RE : squads........ another point is the rich teams ie poole are gonna buy up all the best riders , brady kurtz the next to be signed which joins a growing list of stars meaning less for other teams That is how it is at the moment though, the teams with the most money will generally sign the better riders. If a squad system was governed by grading of riders then I don't see how it would be different. As an example you could have squads of twelve with riders graded A,B,C & D with rules on how many of each grade your squad could have and how your match day team can be selected. You would also want some kind of minimum meeting counter too. The key would be to make sure there were no dodgy gradings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Bet you can't get the last word in I'd reached that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 The concept of using young British riders in the reserve positions is actually good, but has been badly implemented. Once it was seen that the PL didn't want any involvement it was always going to be difficult to succeed. Obviously there have been many, many, problems. Without doubt the biggest issue is the priority of the clubs. How can an Elite team pick a FTR rider who is owned by another club, who always has first choice when the date clash. How many times has Garrity been missing from the Coventry team. How can a system work when the so called riders is always absent. To me, for the FTR to stand any chance of succeeding, the riders HAVE to ride every match, obviously, with the exception of injury. If this can't be achieved then it defeats the object of the whole idea... People will say, yeah that ok for Lynn, where the wheel are always turning, to generate riders for the future. Other clubs need to follow suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Have this team won the Polish League or made it through to the play-offs ? They did start the season on minus 8 points-so it was always going to be a hard task-losing at Gdansk in round 1 didn`t help their cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 I'd reached that point. Very nearly a comedy duo, without the comedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodgy Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 Very nearly a comedy duo, without the comedy. You've proved his point, again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted September 11, 2014 Report Share Posted September 11, 2014 I'd reached that point. The key word being "I''d" of course; brum reaches that point as long as you don't reply, especially saying it's the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted September 12, 2014 Report Share Posted September 12, 2014 one other thing regarding squads : say for example belle vue share the number one between zagar and another continental like pawlicki or vaculik or jonsson zagar gets injured 2 days before a belle vue match so belle vue contact the other number one he would most probably refuse as not had much notice to get a bike ready etc, so then belle vue would have to turn to the cheaper option of a guest ie chris harris ,bjerre,schlein or someone similar , what would happen is most clubs other more expensive shared number one would hardly be used as it would be cheaper to use a rider already based over here ie harris , bjerre , schlein etc ....so shared number ones would be in effect become quite pointless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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