Who Would Have Won?

[waiheke1]

Head to head i would love to know the stats"Bezza" be close i would imagine.Knudsen at his best was a threat good anough but he was unlucky and broke his back but came back to ride at a terrific level.Nielsen i was never a fan but i did warm to him i was wrong what a great rider he was Longevity at a high level shows that.

Off the top of my head, in world finals h2h gundersen beat nielsen 8-3, and finished ahead of him 5-3. Edited August 25, 2014 by waihekeaces1

[Humphrey Appleby]

Knudsen at his best was a threat good anough but he was unlucky and broke his back but came back to ride at a terrific level.

Knudsen was another that never seemed to be able to pull off the big rides when necessary. A good league rider, but I'd never put him up there with Nielsen and Gundersen.

[waiheke1]

Knudsen was another that never seemed to be able to pull off the big rides when necessary. A good league rider, but I'd never put him up there with Nielsen and Gundersen.

Agree, but he was unlucky in 86 as the decision could have gone either way. He also had a terrible run with injuries which hampered him. I think definite parallels with kenny carter, though I'd rate carter slightly higher.

[stratton]

Knudsen was another that never seemed to be able to pull off the big rides when necessary. A good league rider, but I'd never put him up there with Nielsen and Gundersen.

Knudsen was another that never seemed to be able to pull off the big rides when necessary. A good league rider, but I'd never put him up there with Nielsen and Gundersen.

He did break his back Hump, and did well to come back also Nielsen was very lucky to get away with the incident in 86.He beat both quite regular and see him stuff Hans a few times at Sandy lane.

Off the top of my head, in world finals h2h gundersen beat nielsen 8-3, and finished ahead of him 5-3.

Was Nielsen someone you liked or rated? i was never a fan but got to admire him greatly later on.Lee and Penhall i would put above him,i always felt they had his measure also Sigalos/Gundersen after 83 the scene really opened up for Hans.

[waiheke1]

initially no, as in the early 80s he wasnt as good round hyde rd as gundersen carter penhall s moran.

But he was world class 83 onwards and peaked around 86. So he never met penhall or lee when he was at his best. Put penhall lee gundersen and nielsen in a one off race at their peak and I would bsck any of the other s. Put them in a gp series and I would pick hans, possibly against any rider in history.

In terms of "all time greatness" hans would undoubtedly rate above any other riders from the 80s in my view.

[stratton]

initially no, as in the early 80s he wasnt as good round hyde rd as gundersen carter penhall s moran.

But he was world class 83 onwards and peaked around 86. So he never met penhall or lee when he was at his best. Put penhall lee gundersen and nielsen in a one off race at their peak and I would bsck any of the other s. Put them in a gp series and I would pick hans, possibly against any rider in history.In terms of "all time greatness" hans would undoubtedly rate above any other riders from the 80s in my view.

Greatness yes certainly longevity wins that over a period,at GP level Lee(with his dad) Penhall Gundersen,Carter,Sigalos,Sanders,Moran,would of all loved the discipline.If Penhall had stayed around he would of had Hans measure i am convinced, Lee we probably all knew he would not be around for a long period. Edited August 25, 2014 by sidney

[Humphrey Appleby]

He did break his back Hump, and did well to come back also Nielsen was very lucky to get away with the incident in 86.

I seem to remember Knudsen broke his back after the end of the 1988 season, so I'm referring more to his prime years as 10 point heat leader. Whilst from memory he was a very consistent league rider in the 85-88 period, I still wouldn't rate him in the echelon of "could've won the world championship" anymore than Lance King, Les Collins or Jeremy Doncaster who also finished on the podium in World Finals.

[waiheke1]

I seem to remember Knudsen broke his back after the end of the 1988 season, so I'm referring more to his prime years as 10 point heat leader. Whilst from memory he was a very consistent league rider in the 85-88 period, I still wouldn't rate him in the echelon of "could've won the world championship" anymore than Lance King, Les Collins or Jeremy Doncaster who also finished on the podium in World Finals.

Disagree, i'd rank him well ahead of all of those. 3rd in the world on debut at 19, three injury plagued years, 5th in 85 then could have been world champ in 86 if the ref had ruled differently. bombed out of quslifying in 87/88.

I'd have him in the same category as carter and sigalos, though a touch below both of then.

[waiheke1]

a while back I devised a ranking system, which rated riders on performances across World Championship qualifiers, World Final, British League, Internationals (all 22.5%) and BLRC (10%).

For the years 1979-1989, the top three were:

1979: 1 Lee 2 Olsen 3 Mauger

1980 1 Jessup 2 Penhall 3 Lee

1918 1 Penhall 2 Carter 3 Knudsen

1982 1 Penhall 2 Carter 3Sigalos

1983 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Lee

1984 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 King

1985 1 Gundersen 2 Nielsen 3 S Moran

1986 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Jan o Pedersen

1987 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Ermolenko

1988 1 Nielsen 2 Jan O Pedersen 3 Gundersen

1989 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 S Moran

 

In terms of how that compares with who I think would have won GPS.

1979 – as per above

1980 – as per above, though possibly Lee to pip Penhall for 2^nd

1981 – Penhall by a mile. Not certain that Carter would have been part of the 81 GPs, so I’ll plump for Jessup as runner-up (but for his two engine failures at wembley he would have finished 3^rd in the rankings instead of 7^th). 3^rd spot could have gone to Knudsen or Gundersen(4^{th in rankings}), but at best one of them would have been wildcarded in the series – so I’ll plump for Olsen to take 3^rd, the last GP medal for the “old brigade” from the 70s

1982: As per above, assuming Siggy was given a wildcard, otherwise Hans to take 3^rd.

1983: Per above, possibly Lee to finish ahead of Eric in 2^nd

1984: I’ll go Erik ahead of Hans (his ranking was pulled down by his BL tape sexclusions), and Shawn Moran (4^th) to finish in third

1985: Per above

1986: Per above, except I’d go Knudsen (4^th) to take third ahead of Jan O

1987: Per above

1988: Hans to win, I’d say Erik to be 2^nd ahead of Jan O

1989: Nielsen to win. Erik despite his injury may have had enough of a buffer to hold onto a medal spot especially with Shawn Moran’s FIM ban for failing an alcohol test ruling him out and Jan o and Sam both injured. I’ll go Tatum to pick up third spot.

[Sotonian]

Really from the list WC's from 85 to 85 only Gary Havelock stands out as the one who wouldn't have won a title if the GP's had replaced the 1 off WF a decade earlier. There's very little doubt in my mind that had his horrible injury not robbed him from the sport, Per Jonsson would have been WC in 1994 - he was on fire that year!

 

The Danes would have owned the late 80's, but the Swedes would have ruled the 90's. I think an earlier start to the GP's may have seen Jimmy Nielsen crowned WC too.

Don't be so quick to dismiss Havelock in 1992, he was on fire that year. I don't have his record to hand but recall that he won virtually everything going that season.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Disagree, i'd rank him well ahead of all of those. 3rd in the world on debut at 19, three injury plagued years, 5th in 85 then could have been world champ in 86 if the ref had ruled differently.

Knudsen at his peak was a better rider than the likes of King and Doncaster, but World Final history is full of riders who finished third and not better for whatever reason. There was the odd fluke winner of the World Final, but really only the very best ever won.

[billywamill]

Agree, but he was unlucky in 86 as the decision could have gone either way. He also had a terrible run with injuries which hampered him. I think definite parallels with kenny carter, though I'd rate carter slightly higher.

Tommy wouldn't have won in 1986 anyway. He'd already dropped 2 points and what was the likelihood of Nielsen beating Pedersen in Heat 20 to give Tommy the chance of winning? Not high...

91 Nielsen again with Jonsson second (Jonsson was second to Nielsen in Polish averages and topped Swedish averages with Nielsen second)

I think you forget the best rider in the World that year. Apart from one engine failure in the World Pairs Final, Pedersen was unbeaten in all three World Championships: 15 points in the World Final, 15 points in the World Team Cup, paid 15 points in the World Pairs.

 

He would have won in 1990 too at Bradford and would have dominated the sport for several years before the arrival of Rickardsson.

Edited August 26, 2014 by billywamill

[waiheke1]

Tommy wouldn't have won in 1986 anyway. He'd already dropped 2 points and what was the likelihood of Nielsen beating Pedersen in Heat 20 to give Tommy the chance of winning? Not high...

I think hans would have beaten jan o, just as jan o beat gundersen in 88 which gave hans a run off with eric. And id have backed tommy to win the run off. All speculation though...

I think you forget the best rider in the World that year. Apart from one engine failure in the World Pairs Final, Pedersen was unbeaten in all three World Championships: 15 points in the World Final, 15 points in the World Team Cup, paid 15 points in the World Pairs.

 

He would have won in 1990 too at Bradford and would have dominated the sport for several years before the arrival of Rickardsson.

Jan o would have been top two for sure (imho) in 91, though I still reckon hans would hsve pipped him for the title.

Don't be so quick to dismiss Havelock in 1992, he was on fire that year. I don't have his record to hand but recall that he won virtually everything going that season.

Would havvy even have been in a gp series in 92 - would probably have needed a wild card, perhsps to join tatum as only brits.

Assuming he was, I still think jonsson would have won, with two from havelock ermolenko and Nielsen joining him on the podium (I'll go with that order)

[Bruiser McHuge]

Day in day out I think Nielsen was the best rider I have seen but I think Gundersen was possibly the quickest rider I have seen and could peak for the big meetings...I think it would have been the toss of coin between them in GP's ..they were so far ahead of the field

I honestly don't think Lee would have won anything under the new starting regulations...maybe he would have adapted but I have my doubts...pity he didn't hang around to find out..he definitely benefitted from the old style starts

One rider who could have won some was Sigalos who but for his injury could have been better than Penhall I think..he was a great rider.....and Eromolenko in his champion year would have won a GP series I think that year

There are years when a rider is on fire for that year and you could make a case for that year alone maybe...Jessup in 1980 maybe...definitely Jan O Pedersen in his year.....and to be fair to Havelock I don't think he'd have been a milion miles away in his winning year as well.

[stratton]

Mauger won his six titles in the old tape ruling days, but he like Lee would of adapted.If anything Ivan was more of a rogue at the start than Michael but what a gater he was.For me the old rule added entertainment, and to be honest today's tape rule at times is a joke and can be disruptive in keeping the meeting ticking over.Nielsen was a great rider but he certainly was not the best i have ever seen,he didnt dominate his era for me to be considered that.Briggs,Mauger,Olsen, all i would rank above him but his longevity at staying at the top is very impressive.

[billywamill]

I think hans would have beaten jan o, just as jan o beat gundersen in 88 which gave hans a run off with eric. And id have backed tommy to win the run off. All speculation though...

Jan o would have been top two for sure (imho) in 91, though I still reckon hans would hsve pipped him for the title.

Would havvy even have been in a gp series in 92 - would probably have needed a wild card, perhsps to join tatum as only brits.

Assuming he was, I still think jonsson would have won, with two from havelock ermolenko and Nielsen joining him on the podium (I'll go with that order)

Definitely speculation but Jan.O still had an outside chance of winning in 88 and was fighting for a podium spot at the least in his last heat - Hans won have only scored 11 at most in 86 if he had been excluded - nothing to ride for.

 

Pedersen would have walked a Grand Prix series in 91. He had missed out the previous two years through injury just before the final and he was fully prepared and at a different level in the World events to the other riders that year.

 

The loss of the Knudsen, Gundersen and Pedersen in 1992 followed by Jonsson, opened the door to Havelock and Ermolenko prior to the arrival of Rickardsson, Hamill and Hancock. I don't think either won have won otherwise, although you can only beat those riding.

[westhamboy66]

For me the more interesting question is the reverse one...had the one off World championship continued how many titles would Rickardson have won, Would Hancock have improved his tally and would Mark Loram have won any titles at all?

[SCB]

For me the more interesting question is the reverse one...had the one off World championship continued how many titles would Rickardson have won, Would Hancock have improved his tally and would Mark Loram have won any titles at all?

Rickardson, like Mauger before him (and I can only base Mauger on video) was the all round package. He'd have won whatever you threw at him, rollling starts, still starts, uprights, laydowns, GPs or World Finals. As for Hancock, he plays the numbers game, 2nd is good enough, over a 50-70 ride series sometimes finishing 2nd or 3rd is ok but over a 5 ride meeting then I don't think Greg has that killer edge. As for Loram - probably wouldn't have won a World Final BUT he did win GPs so proved he could do it.

[billywamill]

Rickardson, like Mauger before him (and I can only base Mauger on video) was the all round package. He'd have won whatever you threw at him, rollling starts, still starts, uprights, laydowns, GPs or World Finals. As for Hancock, he plays the numbers game, 2nd is good enough, over a 50-70 ride series sometimes finishing 2nd or 3rd is ok but over a 5 ride meeting then I don't think Greg has that killer edge. As for Loram - probably wouldn't have won a World Final BUT he did win GPs so proved he could do it.

 

It's hard to say if Hancock would have won more or Loram would have won one at all. Personally, I think on his night, with his set up and professionalism, he would have won at least a couple of one-off meetings (1997 definitely - he was heads and shoulders above the rest) and Loram deserved one just for his entertainment value.

 

Not sure what you mean by second is good enough. He wins as many grand prix as any other major contender.

[SCB]

Not sure what you mean by second is good enough. He wins as many grand prix as any other major contender.

How often do we see Greg "play the game" and sit contently in second in a GP? He's happy to score 2 2 2 2 2 3 2. Because he knows if he does that for 70 rides while his opponent score 3 2 3 3 3 2 3 then 0 1 3 2 1 that he's going to beat him over a season. I just think the GPs are made for a more methodical, thinking man like Greg than a cut throat one off World Final. I still think he'd have won a title, his constency over a long period means that there would have been a day he come good while those around him floundered.

 

Nicki P on the other hand, he'd have loved World Finals.

Edited September 2, 2014 by SCB