Regionalisation

[ch958]

I've always been against it personally but it keeps being mentioned on here as a way forward with play offs at the end so i'm warming to the idea.

 

However when it comes to dividing the teams its quite tricky with so many midlands teams. Would Peterboro and Kings Lynn be north for example? And if so they would miss out on local matches v Leicester unless they were north too in which case they'd miss out on Wolves and Birmingham (if back)

 

Bear in mind 2 leagues of 12/13 would be required - have a go yourselves and see what i mean

[fatface]

I've discussed this and put forward North and South Leagues with a play-off final as a proposal on a seperate thread. I believe it to be the most viable model for the future of league speedway in this country.

You look at some of the fixtures on the calendar and you wonder how they make them pay. Particularly in the PL. Plymouth is my nearest team and I do wonder when they go on their huge jaunts to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Berwick, Workington or Newcastle how is this viable - on both sides? How are the huge travel costs being met for riders and team officials? How many away fans are likely to make that trip? And for the home promotion, Plymouth are no great attraction, so you wonder if its a fixture they too would rather go without. It's simply not sustainable in the long-term.

In the EL there are less extreme examples of this. But even Belle Vue are fairly marooned in the north and you'd have to assume that they get the lowest number of visiting supporters out of all EL clubs. Much as it pains me to admit it, Belle Vue are also not the huge attraction on the road that they once were. There was a time when PC, Mort and all the rest were one of the 'must-see' matches in any club's season. Those days are long gone. So, again, you wonder if Lakeside v Belle Vue or Eastbourne v Belle Vue would really be missed on the fixture list by fans, riders or promoters. A regional split would give away fans a better chance of reaching an away meeting and also has much more resonance for home support. I believe the fans would respond much better to Sheffield v Belle Vue, Ipswich v King's Lynn and Rye House v Lakeside that they would to plenty of meetings in their current fixture list.

To answer your question ch958. Here's my split:

ELITE LEAGUE - NORTH
Belle Vue, Sheffield, Berwick, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Workington, Newcastle, Leicester, Birmingham (if revived), Coventry, Wolverhampton, Redcar

ELITE LEAGUE - SOUTH
Plymouth, Somerset, Poole, Swindon, Eastbourne, Lakeside, Rye House, Peterborough, Ipswich, King's Lynn, Scunthorpe

You are right of course ch958. The split is not easy. But I still believe there are more attractive fixtures here than we have at present. Besides if there are certain fixtures that would be missing here that strongly resonate with two particular clubs fans, then there is nothing stopping them having their own challenge/cup matches. In the 90s, Wolves and Cradley could be racing for a packet of crisps and it would still pack in the crowds, despite being of very little interest to anyone outside the black country. Ditto, Edinburgh and Glasgow matches are also always spicy occasions that attract healthy support be it in the league or for a haggis supper.

Packaged right, I believe this is a league structure that would be attractive to Sky. It will give them more tracks to visit, more derby matches (likely better crowds) and more clubs utimately in line for the same prize - the Elite League title.

Furthermore, with a more affordable North/South model, this would surely be a more enticing prospect for existing clubs to step up (Stoke, Mildenhall?), former clubs to return (Isle of Wight, Bradford, Oxford, Reading?) or new speedways to form. Football's North and South Conference were launched in 2004 to sit below the Conference and makes much more economic sense for clubs run on similar tight budgets to speedway clubs.

Edited August 24, 2014 by falcace

[DSC67]

One possible problem I can see is rider availability , Edinburgh , Berwick , Glasgow & Newcastle are all weekend tracks (and in Berwick's case no chance of moving race nights ) that would men less chance of signing any top riders who would no doubt be committed to racing abroad at the weekend it would also mean no GP riders not only for the home but also for visiting teams , would fans be willing to turn up and watch depleted teams racing most weeks ?

[greyhoundp]

Yes I think it has to come, of course the dividing line is the sticking point Scunny and KL travelling to Plymouth i wouldnt fancy that at all, but if you put Kings lynn and Scunthorpe into the North, Then put Coventry, Leicester, Wolves AND Cradley into the South, that wouldnt be perfect but it wouldnt be far away.

One possible problem I can see is rider availability , Edinburgh , Berwick , Glasgow & Newcastle are all weekend tracks (and in Berwick's case no chance of moving race nights ) that would men less chance of signing any top riders who would no doubt be committed to racing abroad at the weekend it would also mean no GP riders not only for the home but also for visiting teams , would fans be willing to turn up and watch depleted teams racing most weeks ?

 

Who said anything about Top riders, we are talking about the survival of the Sport in the UK, we managed without TOP riders in the past, we can do so again, and this would also mean the end of the ridiculous double up and down rule. One rider ONE Team thats as it should be.

[The White Knight]

I've discussed this and put forward North and South Leagues with a play-off final as a proposal on a seperate thread. I believe it to be the most viable model for the future of league speedway in this country.

 

You look at some of the fixtures on the calendar and you wonder how they make them pay. Particularly in the PL. Plymouth is my nearest team and I do wonder when they go on their huge jaunts to Edinburgh, Glasgow, Berwick, Workington or Newcastle how is this viable - on both sides? How are the huge travel costs being met for riders and team officials? How many away fans are likely to make that trip? And for the home promotion, Plymouth are no great attraction, so you wonder if its a fixture they too would rather go without. It's simply not sustainable in the long-term.

 

In the EL there are less extreme examples of this. But even Belle Vue are fairly marooned in the north and you'd have to assume that they get the lowest number of visiting supporters out of all EL clubs. Much as it pains me to admit it, Belle Vue are also not the huge attraction on the road that they once were. There was a time when PC, Mort and all the rest were one of the 'must-see' matches in any club's season. Those days are long gone. So, again, you wonder if Lakeside v Belle Vue or Eastbourne v Belle Vue would really be missed on the fixture list by fans, riders or promoters. A regional split would give away fans a better chance of reaching an away meeting and also has much more resonance for home support. I believe the fans would respond much better to Sheffield v Belle Vue, Ipswich v King's Lynn and Rye House v Lakeside that they would to plenty of meetings in their current fixture list.

 

To answer your question ch958. Here's my split:

 

ELITE LEAGUE - NORTH

Belle Vue, Sheffield, Berwick, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Workington, Newcastle, Leicester, Birmingham (if revived), Coventry, Wolverhampton, Redcar

 

ELITE LEAGUE - SOUTH

Plymouth, Somerset, Poole, Swindon, Eastbourne, Lakeside, Rye House, Peterborough, Ipswich, King's Lynn, Scunthorpe

 

You are right of course ch958. The split is not easy. But I still believe there are more attractive fixtures here than we have at present. Besides if there are certain fixtures that would be missing here that strongly resonate with two particular clubs fans, then there is nothing stopping them having their own challenge/cup matches. In the 90s, Wolves and Cradley could be racing for a packet of crisps and it would still pack in the crowds, despite being of very little interest to anyone outside the black country. Ditto, Edinburgh and Glasgow matches are also always spicy occasions that attract healthy support be it in the league or for a haggis supper.

 

Packaged right, I believe this is a league structure that would be attractive to Sky. It will give them more tracks to visit, more derby matches (likely better crowds) and more clubs utimately in line for the same prize - the Elite League title.

 

Furthermore, with a more affordable North/South model, this would surely be a more enticing prospect for existing clubs to step up (Stoke, Mildenhall?), former clubs to return (Isle of Wight, Bradford, Oxford, Reading?) or new speedways to form. Football's North and South Conference were launched in 2004 to sit below the Conference and makes much more economic sense for clubs run on similar tight budgets to speedway clubs.

Well thought out Post with which I now would concur. The very survival of Speedway may well depend on something very close to this being adopted.

[pandorum]

Never liked the regionalisation idea myself but as TWK points out 'The very survival of Speedway may well depend on something very close to this being adopted'.

The sport is desperate and this may well be the short term answer.

A PL level regionalised league with a play off system to provide an overall champion.

Pretty much the last option of a bankrupt sport.

Might just save it from extinction!

 

Who said anything about Top riders, we are talking about the survival of the Sport in the UK, we managed without TOP riders in the past, we can do so again, and this would also mean the end of the ridiculous double up and down rule. One rider ONE Team thats as it should be.

 

Well said. Top riders won't save speedway but not having them and going back to stable teams and starting to produce new talent might.

Might also see the end of TWKs favourite rule and I bet he would say amen to that

Edited August 24, 2014 by pandorum

[moxey63]

What would save money - regionalisation with teams having to travel twice to away tracks, or one league where teams travel to each track the once?

 

As I have said before, less is more. Keep visits down to a minimum and it takes away familiarity, fans will not choose to miss a team that may come just the once, for example. A team that comes twice is less appealing, especially when it's within eeks of each other.

[The White Knight]

What would save money - regionalisation with teams having to travel twice to away tracks, or one league where teams travel to each track the once?

 

As I have said before, less is more. Keep visits down to a minimum and it takes away familiarity, fans will not choose to miss a team that may come just the once, for example. A team that comes twice is less appealing, especially when it's within eeks of each other.

Bloody MICE!!! :rofl:

[Bruiser McHuge]

Regarding Kings Lynn, I follow the Evo Stik Northern Leagues with Curzon Ashton FC as my son plays for the Youth team and Kings Lynn are in the Northern League with lots of teams from the Manchester , lancashire and Cumbria area......I can't work that one out

Would they be a Northern team in any speedway regionalisation I wonder....hardly derby matches....Belle Vue v Kings Lynn....Glasgow v Kings Lynn !

[DSC67]

Yes I think it has to come, of course the dividing line is the sticking point Scunny and KL travelling to Plymouth i wouldnt fancy that at all, but if you put Kings lynn and Scunthorpe into the North, Then put Coventry, Leicester, Wolves AND Cradley into the South, that wouldnt be perfect but it wouldnt be far away.

 

 

Who said anything about Top riders, we are talking about the survival of the Sport in the UK, we managed without TOP riders in the past, we can do so again, and this would also mean the end of the ridiculous double up and down rule. One rider ONE Team thats as it should be.

It's not just the Star riders that ride on the continent , there are plenty riders who wouldn't be classed as top riders riding in the P/L who are already racing in Poland and other countries teams like Glasgow are already struggling to get a decent team on track

[AFCB Wildcat]

Yes I think it has to come, of course the dividing line is the sticking point Scunny and KL travelling to Plymouth i wouldnt fancy that at all, but if you put Kings lynn and Scunthorpe into the North, Then put Coventry, Leicester, Wolves AND Cradley into the South, that wouldnt be perfect but it wouldnt be far away.

 

Yes I think you're right, that's as good as it can be. I can't see how Scunthorpe could possibly be considered south!

North south devide is always talked about but people forget that the country is as wide as it is long and for teams like Plymouth or Somerset located on the M5 I would think Belle Vue would be an easier drive than Eastbourne or Peterborough so it's a tricky one for sure.

[Tsunami]

Yes I think you're right, that's as good as it can be. I can't see how Scunthorpe could possibly be considered south!

North south devide is always talked about but people forget that the country is as wide as it is long and for teams like Plymouth or Somerset located on the M5 I would think Belle Vue would be an easier drive than Eastbourne or Peterborough so it's a tricky one for sure.

OK then. North, South, and few in the middle.

[AFCB Wildcat]

OK then. North, South, and few in the middle.

Didn't Scunthorpe used to be in Yorkshire? Certainly further north than Sheffield.

Trouble is it's not a case of north and south it's accessibility. I followed AFC Bournemouth on the road for over 20 years and remember taking less time to get to Carlisle than it took me to get to Southend!

[25yearfan]

I can see the advantages of regionalisation but as an Ipswich regular I enjoy the visits from the Northern tracks more than seeing some of the Southern teams twice/three times over!

 

For instance one of the best meetings at Foxhall was the 45-45 draw against Glasgow. And I really hope we don't see Somerset again this year cause they are poor round Ipswich!

 

For me I think we've got to go down the Swedish and Polish route of having half the meetings which prevents saturation!

 

I thinks its no coincidence they get better crowds when they only ride other teams once at home and once away.

 

The EL made a big mistake when they went back to twice at home and twice away this season cause that's too much and people start picking and choosing and many people can't afford to go every week.

 

Mildenhall in the NL who get at least 500+ every meeting are the perfect example of less is better. They wouldn't get them crowds if they ran every week.

 

We have got to follow the football route of one home match a fortnight, one away match a fortnight. The days when people would religiously go to speedway every week in large enough numbers has gone!

 

Extra meetings could be generated by KO cup, challenge matches at the start of the season against foreign teams (look at the huge crowd at King's Lynn at the start of the season to see them ride against that Polish club side!)a proper World championship/British championship qualifying system like we used to have in the 1980's and a couple of test series against Poland, Sweden, Australia, Denmark etc.

Edited August 25, 2014 by 25yearfan

[pugwash]

Would this mean the EL downgrading or the PL upgrading? If the former I can't see the big clubs wanting this, if the later i can't see the small clubs affording this.

[macinter]

We have got to follow the football route of one home match a fortnight, one away match a fortnight. The days when people would religiously go to speedway every week in large enough numbers has gone!

 

 

I suspect this might be something under active consideration as suggested by Tai Woffinden.

[ch958]

Would this mean the EL downgrading or the PL upgrading? If the former I can't see the big clubs wanting this, if the later i can't see the small clubs affording this.

Definitely not the latter

[greyhoundp]

Would this mean the EL downgrading or the PL upgrading? If the former I can't see the big clubs wanting this, if the later i can't see the small clubs affording this.

 

The EL downgrading. BIG clubs do we really have any BIG clubs left ? and how do you measure big Clubs. By the riders they have, by the sponsors they have, by the League they are in, or by the crowds that they get ?.

 

I can think of a few Big Clubs under certain measures, but not many meet all the above. So i doubt there would be To many so called Big Clubs left to ride against each other.

 

Birmingham, Eastbourne, Swindon, Coventry probably Belle Vue all could be loosely described as Big Clubs but i think i am probably correct in saying NONE of them returned a profit in 2014 nor probably 2015. Take away the SKY monies and NO club would return a profit. So do we have any BIG clubs ? i suggest only in name.

 

I can think of 2 Big Clubs that race NL and definately returned a profit in 2014, and thats without SKY money, so financially they could be described as Big Clubs bigger than most of the EL big Teams.

I dont know much about the PL but i think we could describe Somerset as a Big Club due to the size of the crowds they get, Leicester (now EL) could be described as the same.

 

So there you have it Pugwash says he believes BIG Teams wouldnt want to downgrade, Im saying we dont really have any Big Teams except in name or self importance, but we do have Top Teams in certain areas; Kent, Cradley, Somerset, Leicester, Poole, Wolves, Lakeside, Kings Lynn, and which ones of those are self sufficient without SKY ?.

[teddy2706]

Can I please stand up and be counted?

I hate the idea of regionalisation.

I would much prefer to see two leagues with promotion and relegation.

Also, the very notion of riders living even remotely close to the club for whom they ride is utterly flawed at present, but some common sense on the part of clubs could alleviate costs by attempting to sign local riders in the future.

Reducing costs may too be acheived by some common sense being displayed on the part of whoever decides and compiles the fixture list.

Also, in todays multicultural Britain, why does no club run on sunday mornings?

Trials, MX, road racing, drag racing, enduro's and clay pigeon shoots have done this for years and any argument concerning church attendances being affected is simply a non-starter.

Personally speaking, I would prefer to hear race bikes than pesky lawnmowers and strimmers on any day of the week, sundays included, particularly my own lawn mower....

Feel free to descend upon me like a pack of dogs if I am wrong.

[fatface]

Can I please stand up and be counted?

I hate the idea of regionalisation.

I would much prefer to see two leagues with promotion and relegation.

Also, the very notion of riders living even remotely close to the club for whom they ride is utterly flawed at present, but some common sense on the part of clubs could alleviate costs by attempting to sign local riders in the future.

Reducing costs may too be acheived by some common sense being displayed on the part of whoever decides and compiles the fixture list.

Also, in todays multicultural Britain, why does no club run on sunday mornings?

Trials, MX, road racing, drag racing, enduro's and clay pigeon shoots have done this for years and any argument concerning church attendances being affected is simply a non-starter.

Personally speaking, I would prefer to hear race bikes than pesky lawnmowers and strimmers on any day of the week, sundays included, particularly my own lawn mower....

Feel free to descend upon me like a pack of dogs if I am wrong.

Woof, woof! Grrrr!

 

Can't say I agree, but you make some fair points. Believe it or not, I would also like two leagues of promotion and relegation, all the world's best riders here and massive crowds. It's just not realistic though in our minority sport. The big problem with relegation is that most PL clubs don't want to go up and EL clubs don't want to go down. Also take your point on Sunday morning racing, but speedway is different to those other sports. The majority are sports more for the participants than the spectators. Also, Moto GP is a full weekend. Speedway is like football, rugby in that its two hours entertainment.

 

For me, regionalisation is the way to go. It's not perfect by any means. But it will save costs, it will increase interest in local rivalries and gives the sport a sensible structure going forwards. I would also say, that unlike the previous one big league incarnation, there would not have to be massive changes to the teams. My team were Exeter and they had to sign Mark Loram, Simon Wigg and a couple of Czech internationals to be competitive. This time round, I don't think there would be major surgery required for EL and PL teams to meet in the middle. Strip away the GP riders from the EL replaced with a lower order man, add in a strong heat leader into each PL team and I think you have some pretty competitive matches.

 

I note someone said they would not be happy about travelling to Plymouth in a South League. Well, you are never going to get a perfect fixture list for your team. There's plenty to knock the BSPA for, but the geographic breadth of the South of England is not one!