SteveLyric2 Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Gradings are just averages of averages. They don't work. Look at the draft this season and the fuss over Compton What fuss?? I can hear a pin drop down here!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foamfence Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Apologies if anyone has suggested anything like this in the other 2015 topics-but I haven`t read all the pages. My suggestion is use the Danish league format of 5 riders with rider grades instead of averages. Here is their format heat 1 1 2 v 1 2 heat 2 3 4 v 3 4 heat 3 2 5 v 2 5 heat 4 1 3 v 1 3 heat 5 2 4 v 2 4 heat 6 3 5 v 3 5 heat 7 1 4 v 1 4 heat 8 2 3 v 2 3 heat 9 4 5 v 4 5 heat 10 4 5 v 1 2 heat 11 1 2 v 4 5 heat 12 1 3 v 1 3 heat 13 nom heat 14 nom all riders are given a season grade-A,B,C,D A is top riders B are just below the top riders C riders with experience D young/U21 Brits Teams would sign enough riders to cover all grades-there by using a Squad system. team totals max is 24 min is 19 A = 8 (1 only per match B = 6 (max 3 per match) C = 3 D = 1(min1 compulsory) For 2 less riders to pay for No Guests or rider replacement might suit the top boys flexability in how teams can line-up(ie go with an A or go instead with 3 B`s) Against 1 less race in the match same riders to often in the match ? I don`t profess to know all the rules in the Danish League-above is the gist of what happens-they I know do use a double point race option although I`m not sure if tac subs are allowed. Could it work ? Wasn`t there an advert once that said " Graded riders make finer speedway " Premier league riders would be graded to their ability and teams would just sign enough riders to cover all positions and eventualities. In heats 11+12 the home number one seems to have two rides in succession. I like the current set-up, although it could do with some slight tweaks. I also like the option of squads or two number ones sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 In heats 11+12 the home number one seems to have two rides in succession. I like the current set-up, although it could do with some slight tweaks. I also like the option of squads or two number ones sharing. They do-they grade the track so it`s a bit of a natural break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Just my opinion,but i am not a fan of the danish system.For me the previous system was better with 6 riders and two to guys per team.Obviously they changed to save money and therefore probably teams,but watching Holsted with both Nicki + Puk against two top riders in the opposing team made it less predictable.There were a few factors that made me stop going up for DSL meetings.One was Vojens dropping out as that is my nearest track,but one other was the change of system.I doubt if i would bother much to travel up even if Vojens were still riding.Now there is for me a feeling that you can fill most of the programme in before a heat has been run,bar the very odd surprise........ It is a cut in costs,but more importantly for me a cut in entertainment.And that isn't good for the crowd. I also thought the reserve rides or the 250cc heats in Germany were along the same lines.It seemed the same rider won all the heats the same rider was second all the time etc. Edited August 22, 2014 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelvinht Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Think it needs something radical like this....no guest or r/r (r/r could be kept if rider injured early in meeting only).....make it 6 man teams and 15 heats and I reckon jobs a goodun....gets us to squad systems....add one or two fixed days for matches and its gotta be worth a try Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 How does it allow flexibility? Lets say grading 4 is all rider from a 3 to a 5 point average. You have 4 grade points left so you can pick any rider in grade 4. Now lets assume you have a points limit, you have 5 points left, you can sign any rider on an average of 5 or less - BUT if you sign a 4 point rider and another of your riders is under-performing you can drop him too. Grading doesn't give flexibility at all - it removes it! Grading is a terrible idea! Grading is fairer that's all. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontforgetthefueltapsbruv Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 The Danish system is worth considering but I'm not convinced it would deliver the savings that it initially suggests. We tried six man teams a while back and perhaps we need to look at why that system was dropped before cutting teams even more. The six man team was dropped so that Ipswich couldnt retain the 98 team. I understand there was a rule at the start of the year that if you used the same 6 with no changes then you could retain it in 99 regardless of averages. Obviously the rest didnt want that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted August 23, 2014 Report Share Posted August 23, 2014 Signing Gollob on a seven probably changed their minds! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy cookie returns? Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Its true the 6 man sides were dropped so that Ipswich could not retain there side. Now if Louis had had Matt Fords money then I suspect the 6 man team system would have been kept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 Never been keen on grading but it might be the only way forward, the problems i see are: We will have riders this season with artificially high and low averages from riding either as heat leaders or second strings, some have done a bit of both so how do you calculate what their average should be for next season? is this something that the powers have even gave any consideration to when they had their winter conference in 2013? If you add the rolling averages part then it becomes even more complicated. To grade riders would be a easier as it would be possible to take into account of number factors outside of pure points scoring, it would certainly cut out any thoughts of average manipulation, it would make it very difficult to do at least, even a Tai Woffinden would still be graded as a "A" regardless of his EL form. But the key to grading will be who does it! its no good leaving it to the BSPA, that will just lead to manipulation and arguments, neither of which the sport needs anymore of. If a independent body completely neutral and no links to any club whatsoever were to do the gradings i think it would be fine, once a grade is set there can be no appeal, you like it or lump it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remembertheracers Posted August 31, 2014 Report Share Posted August 31, 2014 (edited) FANS aren't exactly getting value for money as it is. Could always add an additional heat. Don't see five riders per team as opposed to seven being less of attraction. We have 5 riders as it is. Only 5/6 out of 20 fast track riders originally, now 18 are worth bothering with. British speedway RIP With the doubling/tripling in leagues I think it is time to get Swedish and Polish League regularly on TV and say goodbye to professional BSPA British speedway. Which I think crowd levels suggest is or has already happened. Edited September 1, 2014 by remembertheracers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluTiger Posted September 1, 2014 Report Share Posted September 1, 2014 After yet another shambles tonight, it would appear the Elite League is a dead man walking... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 How radical do you want? How about individual fan groups buying out current promotions or boycotting until such time as they are forced sell off their lot cheap. CIC or community investment companies is something which is growing all the time including in sport, but it would be no good to just come in with one or two clubs because they would get shouted down by the old guard, remember the stories of ex promoter John Berry trying to get into the inner circle of speedway only to be met with brick walls and more than a bit of "who do you think you are" that still exists today. Speedway can only be returned to what the fans want by the fans themselves, the bspa have shown themselves to be incompetent, they are stuck in the dark ages and honestly believe that only they and they alone can know what is best, does not matter how high your IQ is, does not matter how much money you have, if your not in that inner circle or related to someone who is then your not coming in and if they do happen let you in you have to sit at the back keep quiet! Regardless of how many tracks would end up becoming full CIC run clubs or part CIC run clubs with a current promoter holding a majority share (because there are still a small few honest good promoters out there, but they can only do so much because of the John Berry effect, Stuart Douglas at Lakeside i firmly believe to be a guy who came into the sport with his heart in the right place and wanted to make change for the better but then along came Mr Cook with a pair of special bspa old guard handcuffs) Speedway needs new people with fresh ideas and the scope to be able to make them become a reality and above all else the sport needs a completely neutral independent body that can oversee it and manage it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2 Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 (edited) The heat format is really not an issue. What people do want to see though is there own riders, every meeting. Not R/R or a guest because a rider is riding for his PL or NL team FFS! Teams to have 7 riders, thats the team, plus 1 stand by PL and 1 stand by NL rider in their "squad". Scrap doubling up. No. I think doubling up IS the answer because it's cost effective for the riders & promotions & the riders are more committed to their GB teams because most have no commitments abroad. The key is to ride PL Fri-Sat & EL Mon-Thurs with the EL teams having the best PL riders & draft riders doubling up & a few international riders. Each EL team could sign a squad of say five international riders & use three in any match. I would allow any rider who bases himself in the UK & commits to both leagues (whatever his nationality) to ride in both. EL riders with an average above 7.2 would be given a 12 PL average & Harris, Nicholls & Bridger etc could ride in both leagues. Edited September 3, 2014 by DC2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwatcher Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 The EL system works just fine. If you cut out the riders from abroad who sign then do a bunk after a few weeks, happened far to often this year. The FTR scheme sounded good and it is good if only the riders where of equal quality. We have 5 or 6 riders in there that should have been put straight into the main team to see if they had got what it takes. I am sure that most of the said riders would have managed quite well in the main team, instead of making a mokery of the FTR scheme that it has become this year. If they keep it again for 2015, which I hope they do because it has done great things for some of the younger riders in there, then I hope that they can at least sort out the riders properly. It is not good to see the said FTR coming week in week out scoring 15 plus points a meeting. They are not only beating the other FTR they are beeting riders in the main teams. So to me that is where they should have been in the first place. Who was it, the promoters who didn't think that these lads had what it took to make it into a full team place. They have all been proven wrong. I hope that we see these l;ads move up into full team places next year, they would be far better choices than of some of the overseas riders in the teams that are only scoring 3 or 4 points a meeting. Come on give these young British lads what they need, full team places in the EL teams next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC2 Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 The EL system works just fine. LOL Have you seen tomorrow's Wolves team? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike.Butler Posted September 4, 2014 Report Share Posted September 4, 2014 \realistically I can only see one savior even if it means riders are all part-time. No foreigners. One league. All brits who only ride in UK. Weekly meetings for £10..riders split pay out of gate money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhoundp Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 Right now all riders have programmed rides, with heats 2 & 9 for FTR riders, the Team managers have very little to manage except when to have a double points thingy.I would suggest we continue as now except instead of having programmed rides the Team manager nominates riders for each race, with the only exceptions being Hts 2 & 9 being for FTRs and the other FTR rides have to be against other FTRs or 2nd strings. Some Team managers would go for a strong beginning to the meeting, and start off by giving Heat leaders rides to start the meeting, some would use 2 heat leaders in one race, others would prefer to have stronger riders at the end of the meeting, it would certainly make it more interesting both from a racing and a results perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcatdiary Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 The heat format is really not an issue. What is it they say about deck chairs and the titanic? What people do want to see though is there own riders, every meeting. Not R/R or a guest because a rider is riding for his PL or NL team FFS! Teams to have 7 riders, thats the team, plus 1 stand by PL and 1 stand by NL rider in their "squad". Scrap doubling up. Either that or riders have to put the EL first - the PL promoters won't like that but are they willing to risk the riders choosing PL over the EL and vice-versa. And arrange fixtures to avoid clashes. Swindon and Coventry going to Eastbourne a week apart and both missing their number 1 and having to use a junior was stupid when all that needed to be done was to swap the two meetings around. I agree that it isn't the race format that's the problem it's the crazy farce with missing doubling up riders and guests, put the EL and PL on DIFFERENT race nights. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted September 5, 2014 Report Share Posted September 5, 2014 \realistically I can only see one savior even if it means riders are all part-time. No foreigners. One league. All brits who only ride in UK. Weekly meetings for £10..riders split pay out of gate money. Ok. Now name the British riders that will be used to fill out the teams in this one big league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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