racers and royals Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Apologies if anyone has suggested anything like this in the other 2015 topics-but I haven`t read all the pages. My suggestion is use the Danish league format of 5 riders with rider grades instead of averages. Here is their format heat 1 1 2 v 1 2 heat 2 3 4 v 3 4 heat 3 2 5 v 2 5 heat 4 1 3 v 1 3 heat 5 2 4 v 2 4 heat 6 3 5 v 3 5 heat 7 1 4 v 1 4 heat 8 2 3 v 2 3 heat 9 4 5 v 4 5 heat 10 4 5 v 1 2 heat 11 1 2 v 4 5 heat 12 1 3 v 1 3 heat 13 nom heat 14 nom all riders are given a season grade-A,B,C,D A is top riders B are just below the top riders C riders with experience D young/U21 Brits Teams would sign enough riders to cover all grades-there by using a Squad system. team totals max is 24 min is 19 A = 8 (1 only per match B = 6 (max 3 per match) C = 3 D = 1(min1 compulsory) For 2 less riders to pay for No Guests or rider replacement might suit the top boys flexability in how teams can line-up(ie go with an A or go instead with 3 B`s) Against 1 less race in the match same riders to often in the match ? I don`t profess to know all the rules in the Danish League-above is the gist of what happens-they I know do use a double point race option although I`m not sure if tac subs are allowed. Could it work ? Wasn`t there an advert once that said " Graded riders make finer speedway " Premier league riders would be graded to their ability and teams would just sign enough riders to cover all positions and eventualities. Edited August 21, 2014 by racers and royals 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 SOUNDS like a plan ... radical maybe but what we have right now isn't working and people are deserting in droves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I have been peddling grading here for years so I certainly do like the idea of getting away from averages. I would pipe in for grades to last 3 years to allow stability but dunno if 5 rider meetings and 14 heats would take off here. When I was a paying customer I would not have liked that idea. I guess it depends on how much the promoters will charge for once again LESS! But as the bloke above said what we have is a mess so anything is an improvement Edited August 21, 2014 by pandorum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I have been peddling grading here for years so I certainly do like the idea of getting away from averages. I would pipe in for grades to last 3 years to allow stability but dunno if 5 rider meetings and 14 heats would take off here. When I was a paying customer I would not have liked that idea. I guess it depends on how much the promoters will charge for once again LESS! But as the bloke above said what we have is a mess so anything is an improvement FANS aren't exactly getting value for money as it is. Could always add an additional heat. Don't see five riders per team as opposed to seven being less of attraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 FANS aren't exactly getting value for money as it is. Could always add an additional heat. Don't see five riders per team as opposed to seven being less of attraction. You don't but I would have back in the day. I would imagine a few who pay to see speedway now would have the same view but as you point out not everybody would have that view. True no reason our 5 man racing has to be 14 heats. Again depends on cost to the customer. Less means more with the crowd that run things here. Probably far too radical a change for one season but certainly has merit. I enjoy my Danish fix and don't have the hangup I would have had back then about 5 man teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketrod Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 What about 3 a side junior matches after the main event, see the best of both worlds then 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I have always been uncomfortable with grading - it has an element of subjectivity, and the wealthiest teams will buy up the best riders in each grade. BUT I think that grading is by far the most elegant solution to the situation created by the vast difference in the quality of opponents faced by second-strings and heat leaders in this year's EL format. Biggest problem with Danish format is that with only five riders you are really stuffed if you lose a rider early in the meeting. I'd stick with IRR Overall I think R&R is onto something Edited August 21, 2014 by arnieg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveallan81 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 all riders are given a season grade-A,B,C,D A is top riders B are just below the top riders C riders with experience D young/U21 Brits So the Danish system is based loosely on the Speedway Scene board game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krompa Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Danish system is a joke. You guys better forget it before you even try to think that it may solve British speedway problems. The same riders meeting each other 4-5 times, meetings last 2.5 hours minimum as top riders have 6-7 rides and it of course means time for them between the heats. Dont think Danes like it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted August 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Danish system is a joke. You guys better forget it before you even try to think that it may solve British speedway problems. The same riders meeting each other 4-5 times, meetings last 2.5 hours minimum as top riders have 6-7 rides and it of course means time for them between the heats. Dont think Danes like it. Who in Denmark doesn`t like it ? Fans ? clubs ? riders ?-certainly the top boys seem happy to ride there. Although it might take 2.5 houre in Denmark doesn`t mean it would take that long over here-should be able to wrap it up in 2 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) 6 man teams for me.. 13 heats - first nine all pairs race each other, next three heats are lowest scorers to highest, last heat a nominated... 8.5 max average for the No1, 4.5 min average for the No 6 - mean average per rider equals 6.5 so team average 39... rr can be used for missing riders so if No1 is missing, Numbers 2 and 3 can if the team manager wishes take all his rides.. if riders 2 thru to 6 are missing the rider above, like now, can take one ride, but the rider below could take all the rest, in the situation of a missing 5 or 6 then a number seven can be named and can take any rr rides, the number seven can be a guest, but not from another EL team, therefore PL or NL only and would have a lower converted average than the rider he replaces... all guests to be ratified by an independent body of three ex riders no longer involved directly in the sport to ensure no dodgy manipulation of the situation is being used ie to ensure a 'like for like' (or as near as damn it) replacement.... british riders get a 5% reduction in average, sod european law, no one will take it to court as poland and sweden prove with their 'positive discrimination' and each team must have two minimum.. any rider missing 'ill or injured' must have seen a british doctor or face a one month ban, any rider missing to riding in his own league gets a one month ban too, look after british speedway's integrity and respectability first.. each race in the EL costs just over a quid at most tracks, so charge 14 quid for the EL meeting then add on another quid for a six a side, nine heat junior meeting second half.. wrap up them 22 heats for 15 quid in 90 minutes and you have a fair value for money evening out.. and so to sleep..... Edited August 21, 2014 by mikebv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Who in Denmark doesn`t like it ? Fans ? clubs ? riders ?-certainly the top boys seem happy to ride there. Although it might take 2.5 houre in Denmark doesn`t mean it would take that long over here-should be able to wrap it up in 2 hours. I've been to quite a few Danish League matches and in general I'd say they are run more quickly than the UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffster Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Danish system is a joke. You guys better forget it before you even try to think that it may solve British speedway problems. The same riders meeting each other 4-5 times, meetings last 2.5 hours minimum as top riders have 6-7 rides and it of course means time for them between the heats. Dont think Danes like it. Personally, I agree with Krompa - The Czech league used to run the same system as the Danes, and I saw a Play Off Final a couple of years back between Mseno and Prague, and I thought the format very odd, with certain riders riding more often than team mates, riders were meeting the opposition 4 or more times, it was very repetitive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racers and royals Posted August 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Repetition has already increased this season with the compromise formula in use to shield the FTR riders so we are already pretty familiar with it. I wonder if the cost of paying top riders to ride 6-7 times in a meeting would be recouped by the saving in only taking five riders to matches. There's still six points to pay for in every race and at present they know that eight FTR rides in a meeting are on a minimum wage, fixed-cost basis. The Danish system is worth considering but I'm not convinced it would deliver the savings that it initially suggests. We tried six man teams a while back and perhaps we need to look at why that system was dropped before cutting teams even more. We need radical change but must not lose sight of the fact that we need to return to first principles - a series of races in which riders are well-matched, produce passing on a track that permits it and where enough people want to watch them to pay for it all. I think one of the main advantages would be having the squad system and getting rid of Guests and R/R-with also flexability in how the team is put together for an individual match. Also one young British rider as a D grade-hopefully the Premier league would have to have young British riders at reserve. Edited August 22, 2014 by racers and royals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 The heat format is really not an issue. What is it they say about deck chairs and the titanic? What people do want to see though is there own riders, every meeting. Not R/R or a guest because a rider is riding for his PL or NL team FFS! Teams to have 7 riders, thats the team, plus 1 stand by PL and 1 stand by NL rider in their "squad". Scrap doubling up. Either that or riders have to put the EL first - the PL promoters won't like that but are they willing to risk the riders choosing PL over the EL and vice-versa. And arrange fixtures to avoid clashes. Swindon and Coventry going to Eastbourne a week apart and both missing their number 1 and having to use a junior was stupid when all that needed to be done was to swap the two meetings around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Gradings (dropped way too quick in my opinion) and rider job shares (Squad system) is the best way forward IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Gradings (dropped way too quick in my opinion) and rider job shares (Squad system) is the best way forward IMHO. Gradings are just averages of averages. They don't work. Look at the draft this season and the fuss over Compton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Every time people make drastic changes, some people don't like the changes and give up going. The Danish league format is not good for me. Teams are reduced from 7 to 5? That means less riders. so it's less appealing to some people. Plus, we have 5 riders per team now, plus 2 fast track riders. That, for me, would be a perfectly good system providing people weren't missing all the time. When I saw in the past that the Danish League only had 5 riders per team it just, for me, made it look like a lower standard of league. Whether or not it is is irrelevant that's how it looked. And if people want gradings in all positions, just imagine how fed up everyone is going to be on here when Poole get all the top riders from each grade. Certain posters will be at the vet giving birth to a litter of kittens. All people want is for the sport to be run professionally. All this buggering about costs supporters every time it happen and a lot of them don't come back. A league with teams of 5 per side would mean crowds of about 500 at most stadiums in the EL. It looks lower. Edited August 22, 2014 by grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Gradings are just averages of averages. They don't work. Look at the draft this season and the fuss over Compton I just think it allowed more flexibility, like the drafy SHOULD have done from the off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I just think it allowed more flexibility, like the drafy SHOULD have done from the off. How does it allow flexibility? Lets say grading 4 is all rider from a 3 to a 5 point average. You have 4 grade points left so you can pick any rider in grade 4. Now lets assume you have a points limit, you have 5 points left, you can sign any rider on an average of 5 or less - BUT if you sign a 4 point rider and another of your riders is under-performing you can drop him too. Grading doesn't give flexibility at all - it removes it! Grading is a terrible idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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