arnieg Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I think it is worth noting that when a rider says they'd like to do a few matches in Britain, but not the whole season, they generally mean at the beginning or end of the season when their diaries are less full. (cf Hancock at Reading in 2007 and Ljung at Leicester this year). If not being able to see Nicki Pedersen in EL matches is the problem - a squad system won't solve it. But the bigger problem is too many missing riders due to doubling up and foreign commitments. As a start could we revert to the position where each double upper position is filled by two riders instead of one? And how about some incentive when team building during the close season to retain riders from the previous season. Speedway's main audience is people who turn up at their local track hoping to see their team win - not two guests, rider replacement, and couple of riders who'll only be in the team this season. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB252 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 There's some real nutcases on this thread, talking about job sharing and racing on Monday nights all for the benefit of about 3 lazy ar$ed selfish riders that don't want to do a full season. The irony being that all of them without exception have ridden here earlier in their careers and been turned into better riders for it. If Coventry run meetings on a Monday to Thursday we will be out business in a month, regardless of the quality of the teams on track. You do realise ticket prices will need to be £25 a head to support this increase in quality? And I say that as somebody who will turn up regardless of which day of the week we race on. I want Friday or Saturday speedway at Brandon every week, and if that means PL level racing with Olly and Robbo as my top two, then bring it on. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen chemistry Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 so sharing number ones is the miracle cure? so all the top riders are gonna come back in there droves? many times ive heard top riders say the reason why they dont and wont ride over here is because of the (rubbish) tracks ... can anyone see the track prep/conditions improve drastically before next season , me neither Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adder Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Even if you had 3 "top" riders per squad it is likely that they would all be missing at the same time anyway as they would be generally competing in the same events. And you would have to pay each of them a financial retainer. Barmy idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 There's some real nutcases on this thread, talking about job sharing and racing on Monday nights all for the benefit of about 3 lazy ar$ed selfish riders that don't want to do a full season. The irony being that all of them without exception have ridden here earlier in their careers and been turned into better riders for it. If Coventry run meetings on a Monday to Thursday we will be out business in a month, regardless of the quality of the teams on track. You do realise ticket prices will need to be £25 a head to support this increase in quality? And I say that as somebody who will turn up regardless of which day of the week we race on. I want Friday or Saturday speedway at Brandon every week, and if that means PL level racing with Olly and Robbo as my top two, then bring it on. BUT we are not talking about three riders ... Why is it that Manchester United attract more fans than Hartlepool. They both play football. You may not care about seeing the top riders racing in the EL but there are plenty who do, many of whom have already voted with their feet and given up on a product that is Elite in name only. I fully agree that the top stars don't guarantee top racing all the time but I cannot believe that riders like Woffinden, Iversen and Zagar, to name but three, don't influence attendances at not only their home track but also when riding away. But fans need to know that when they attend a meeting they know the teams will not be riddled with guests, etc. I fail to understand why riders who choose to race elsewhere get such stick. It's not their fault that the British fixture list is such a haphazard affair. Instead of telling them to 'get stuffed' we should be trying to formulate a system that offers them reasonable employment in return for a definitive number of meetings. Young British talent isn't going to materialise overnight. Despite all its lavish rewards and development schemes even soccer isn't exactly awash with stars of tomorrow. We need to be realistic and try and work with not only the riders but the Danish, Polish and Swedish leagues as well to minimise fixture clashes and to devise a system that allows British teams to field their own riders from a squad rather than the constant use of guests, r/r and those doubling up to the degree that some do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 BUT we are not talking about three riders ... Why is it that Manchester United attract more fans than Hartlepool. They both play football. You may not care about seeing the top riders racing in the EL but there are plenty who do, many of whom have already voted with their feet and given up on a product that is Elite in name only. Yes but there is one flaw in your analogy there are plenty of people who watch Hartlepool would not watch Utd if you gave them a free ticket on the same day Pool played. It's called supporting your team. Also Utd have a much bigger ground I can't understand this obsession with comparing speedway to football it's like comparing gold to toilet paper. It is true in the old days the stars did indeed boost attendance but looking in as an outsider today that effect seems minimal in most cases. From such a low base it may bring in an extra couple of dozen but the days when a match race with Mauger or Collins or Penhall might well double the gate are long gone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G the Bee Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) If Coventry run meetings on a Monday to Thursday we will be out business in a month, regardless of the quality of the teams on track. Why would we? Surely you are not making this assumption based upon a one season experience when Coventry finished rock bottom of the league. The poor crowds in 2004 were more influenced by the poor team and not the racenight. Sure, when Coventry race midweek at the moment, attendances are down but this is simply because it's not their regular race night. Plenty of other teams ride midweek and Wolves and Poole have both raced Mondays and Wednesdays for years with some success. If Bees went Premier League, with Robbo and Allen as their top two, as you suggest, we would, yet again, be looking at another swathe of fans lost to the sport. Another example of the sport weakening the product. If PL standard racing is the answer, why are so many PL tracks also struggling for attendances? One of the reasons the sport has lost so many fans at EL level is that many of the top riders have gone and fans, no longer excited by the product, have drifted away. No-one ever grew a business by watering down and weakening the product they offered to the customer. I think we all accept that the days of all of the top stars in the EL have gone but, as it stands, we'll be lucky to keep the ones we've got, and the ones coming through the system, unless drastic changes are made. Fixed race nights. Less EL fixtures. No PL riding on those nights so no doubling up clashes. And if clubs want a shared number 1, what's the problem? Not all clubs would need one, but the ones that do (Ward and Holder at Poole, Lindgren and Woffinden at Wolves) what's the problem? The riders would be given a 'pay as you play' deal and ride for the same points money as they get at the moment. That's the way forward. Edited August 21, 2014 by G the Bee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) And if clubs want a shared number 1, what's the problem. The riders would be given a 'pay as you play' deal. That's the way forward. I am certain that would work They would be falling over each other to come here then Edited August 21, 2014 by pandorum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I am certain that would work They would be falling over each other to come here then MORE than you might suspect ... give them some degree of certainty, this is when we need you, this is when not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G the Bee Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I am certain that would work They would be falling over each other to come here then Yet you back up your argument with no facts. Why would two riders cost more than one? I assume you are thinking about signing on fees, supplied vans, mechanics etc. But has the scenario even been approached with the riders. I always feel if there is a will, there is a way. It would be down to the clubs to manage the situation. You say the EL can't afford to fly in Greg or Nicki. Well I seem to recall Poole flew Greg in quite a lot last season and Nicki lives in Stevenage! Greg last year was dropped by Bydgoszcz to save them money so, I assume, he was on some type of meeting by meeting deal there. I think that the chance to race half the EL fixtures in what is still a competitive league could well appeal to many riders who have simply given up riding in GB because it's too many fixtures. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandorum Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Yet you back up your argument with no facts. Why would two riders cost more than one? I assume you are thinking about signing on fees, supplied vans, mechanics etc. But has the scenario even been approached with the riders. I always feel if there is a will, there is a way. It would be down to the clubs to manage the situation. Of course that is what I am talking about. These people are not charities. And what have facts got to do with this place? And it wasn't so much an argument as an opinion and I don't think you need facts for those You say the EL can't afford to fly in Greg or Nicki. Well I seem to recall Poole flew Greg in quite a lot last season and Nicki lives in Stevenage! Probably could have chosen a better example. But in my defence I have lived in Stevenage MORE than you might suspect ... give them some degree of certainty, this is when we need you, this is when not. Yeah that's all these guys do this for. They have a degree of certainty in EL racing now but they choose to ride in Sweden and Poland. There must be something there they can't get in Brit racing? $$$$$$dunno what it is offhand I think that the chance to race half the EL fixtures in what is still a competitive league could well appeal to many riders who have simply given up riding in GB because it's too many fixtures. Yes but they will still want paying Edited August 21, 2014 by pandorum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLyric2 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yet you back up your argument with no facts. Why would two riders cost more than one? I assume you are thinking about signing on fees, supplied vans, mechanics etc. But has the scenario even been approached with the riders. I always feel if there is a will, there is a way. It would be down to the clubs to manage the situation. You say the EL can't afford to fly in Greg or Nicki. Well I seem to recall Poole flew Greg in quite a lot last season and Nicki lives in Stevenage! Greg last year was dropped by Bydgoszcz to save them money so, I assume, he was on some type of meeting by meeting deal there. I think that the chance to race half the EL fixtures in what is still a competitive league could well appeal to many riders who have simply given up riding in GB because it's too many fixtures. The 'too many fixtures' argument only applies to GP riders and now some in the SEC. There are still loads of other heat leader quality riders - British and foreign - who need a decent number of fixtures to make a living!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krompa Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Strange that most people dont like two #1's idea. It would always be up to promoters/teams if they prefer 1 full timer or 2 part timers. Eastbourne can stick with Bjarne Pedersen but if Poole can afford alco-Ward and Holder, why not? If Wolves can have Tai and Fred, why not? It is something that will not cost clubs much more as I never heard about UK club paying any money other than points/start money. Do they pay like Polish clubs money before the season for equipment etc? Doubt it. From fans point of view great idea, more speculation which rider should ride in this match, which one in next etc. TV happy with more top boys back. And top RIDERS like your world champ Tai happy with some free time to breath. Lets say Sayfutdinov wants good warm up in March/April (first 4-5 meetings before Polish/GP season starts) and then he takes 2-3 later (or in the playoffs), other matches taken by Andersen (if he is happy with less matches of course). Why not to let them? If Coventry cant afford Sayfu financially then they say NO and get Hans full time. What is the problem for you guys with such scenarios? Pretty much the same as with Fast Track system. For years people were crying here that they need to watch crap reserves from other countries wobbling at the back. Now British youngsters finally have this opportunity and people are still crying. In Poland we accepted 2 U21 riders in every team and even if they finish races 50 meters behind, from those 16-20 kids/year after few seasons we have young promising stars like Pawlicki brothers, Janowski, Wozniak, Gomolski to only name a few. You Brits need to wake up. And listen. Start listen your own riders and dont jump on Tai saying if he is not commited then he can go. Maybe finally you will learn something from other speedway nations (which by the way left you for dead at the moment which SWC and all junior competitions shown in last decade at least). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 BUT we are not talking about three riders ... Why is it that Manchester United attract more fans than Hartlepool. They both play football. You may not care about seeing the top riders racing in the EL but there are plenty who do, many of whom have already voted with their feet and given up on a product that is Elite in name only. I fully agree that the top stars don't guarantee top racing all the time but I cannot believe that riders like Woffinden, Iversen and Zagar, to name but three, don't influence attendances at not only their home track but also when riding away. But fans need to know that when they attend a meeting they know the teams will not be riddled with guests, etc. I fail to understand why riders who choose to race elsewhere get such stick. It's not their fault that the British fixture list is such a haphazard affair. Instead of telling them to 'get stuffed' we should be trying to formulate a system that offers them reasonable employment in return for a definitive number of meetings. Young British talent isn't going to materialise overnight. Despite all its lavish rewards and development schemes even soccer isn't exactly awash with stars of tomorrow. We need to be realistic and try and work with not only the riders but the Danish, Polish and Swedish leagues as well to minimise fixture clashes and to devise a system that allows British teams to field their own riders from a squad rather than the constant use of guests, r/r and those doubling up to the degree that some do now. The biggest conundrum domestic Speedway has to face is touched upon in your post. This year we have Leicester and Eastbourne running home meetings on Saturday evenings, presumably because the promotions feel that is when they will get the best attendances. However, they have been beset by teams tracking a plethora of guests and RR and such is the breadth (and the likely expansion) of the international calendar nowadays that is hard to reconcile top flight speedway in the UK with weekend fixtures. I don't see how a squad system is really going to improve that situation. So do clubs bite the bullet and go for Mondays, Wednesdays or Thursdays with the top boys or stick to weekends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G the Bee Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) The 'too many fixtures' argument only applies to GP riders and now some in the SEC. There are still loads of other heat leader quality riders - British and foreign - who need a decent number of fixtures to make a living!! And that's the benefit of the fixed night system. If the EL was on fixed nights with no PL action on those nights, then the likes of Danny King, Ben Barker, Edward Kennett, Simon Stead etc. could also double up without anyone having to worry about fixture clashes. The fast track system would also work better because of the lack of doubling-up clashes. The riders who are able to get rides abroad can then get them and those who cannot, many of whom might argue that an EL with less fixtures would not give them enough earning opportunity, would be able to double up. Clubs who wish to go down the route of having two number 1 riders who job share, and can come to suitable agreements between themselves and those riders on the logistics of costings and how it would work, can do so. The higher averaged rider's average would be used for team building. Everyone's a winner. Edited August 21, 2014 by G the Bee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) For me two riders sharing one position doesn't work which is one of the reasons the doubling up roles were changed to being a doubling up rider who was covered by a guest if unavailable. Plus if you have two riders sharing one position, plus doubling up riders and draft riders you could end up with a team like this Darcy Ward or Chris Holder Jason Doyle DU Vaclav Milik Josh Grajzoneck DU Ludvig Lindgren DU Draft rider Draft rider So for example, its Bnk Holiday Monday and Poole are at Monmore Green. Darcy gets injured in Poland and Chris Holder is unavailable ..... Doyle, Josh and Ludvig are riding in their Premier League teams as are the two draft riders ..... So it ends up as Wolves v Vaclav Milik and 6 guests !!! Maybe unlikeley but lets put it another way ...... Wolves go into this meeting with Tai and Pawlicki injured so they need a guest. As its a Bank Holiday Monday, most teams are riding and they look to find a #1 to guest so they can face a Darcy Ward led Poole team and the only #1 in the country available is Chris Holder ....... could a sharing rider end up taking guest bookings and possibly against his own team ? You can call it a British League or the Premier League but for me the best way forward is for ALL tracks to get together and form one league that is equally split into two groups of twelve and run to PL standard. ..... Those tracks that want to still run EL meetings do so on a Monday only using 6 of their team and TWO squad riders whose averages are irrelevant but one of these four squad riders must have an average below that of their regular team so he would also be available to guest. So Wolves enter the BL or PL whatever you want to call it with Peter Karlsson, Ricky Wells, Oliver Bernzton, Nicolai Klindt, Ludvig Lindgren, Ashley Morris and Tom Perry and have a four man squad pick of Fredrik Lindgren, Tai Woffinden, Piotr Pawlicki and Jacob Thorssell. ..... Any EL meeting Wolves can bring in any two of those squad riders however as Wolves have selected Peter Karlsson 6.64 as their regular #1, they are actually going to use Jacob Thorssell 6.16 for most matches in the PL/BL league Any teams not entering an EL team make up their fixtures with Premier Trophy meetings giving you a more variety of teams, equal standard racing, no fixture clashes for doubling up riders, young riders get to progress more I actually think that PL/BL matches may work better with 6 man teams (or 7 with a NL rider) and EL with 8 man teams being the regular PL/BL team plus two squad riders Edited August 27, 2014 by T.N.T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted August 27, 2014 Report Share Posted August 27, 2014 Not really read to much of the thread so apologies if this is repeating but this is how I'd work the squad system. 10 riders per squad 1-7 built on 42.5 average 3 heatleaders per team but only 2 can ride at one time (averages must fit within the team average of 42.5) No'3-6 in the averages can be anyone No'7 is a draft rider No'8 nominated guest rider with an average equal or less than the 5th averaged rider (comes in for any 1-5) No'9 nominated guest rider with an average equal or less than the 6th averaged rider (comes in for any 1-6) No'10 is a draft reserve rider Draft rider's remain at 6-7 all season If 2 heatleaders are missing then the No'8-9 comes in and riders move to positions according to averages If a heatleader is to be replaced (injured or sacked) the replacement can only have an average less than the 2nd highest average. No R/R If all means of using squad rider's are exhausted then an NL guest rider with an average less than 7 must be used (all rider's move according to averages) I can't see anything not along those lines really working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Smith Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Niels Iversen's piece on the job share http://www.edp24.co.uk/sport/kings-lynn-stars/inside_track_2014_world_number_three_niels_kristian_iversen_s_weekly_look_inside_the_norfolk_arena_1_3749862?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdmc82 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Poole couldn't even get 1 rider over to replace Ward for a month. Where are each team meant to fine 2 riders each from. A lot of riders don't want to come if also in GP or even SEC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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