Guest Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Talking of the old National League have we discussed the 1934 National League Second Division yet? Tommy Price, George Wilks, Wal Morton, Alec Statham, Mike Erskine and Acorn Dobson all rode in that one. Are you trying to tempt me into a comment Norbold - there's several old mates of mine in that group? Edited July 15, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Are you trying to temp me into a comment Norbold - there's several old mates of mine in that group. I'm sure everyone would like you to share with us some of your wisdom gained over the years watching the sport.. it's why people despair you resort to the posts you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) I'm sure everyone would like you to share with us some of your wisdom gained over the years watching the sport.. it's why people despair you resort to the posts you do. I's love to do as you suggest but over the months have been 'hammered' so much on the BSF I now have something of a 'why should I bother?' attitude in regard to replies with historical significance. In Norbold's Post there are three themes that I could refer to! Edited July 15, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Has Darcy made a statement about his ban yet? Will he appeal against the ban? When does his ban finish? When will Jerran Hart be freed? Do you know. If Bill Posters will be banned ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I used to watch PL speedway regularly at Sheffield. Watching it, you form your own ideas of who are brilliant riders and who are not so good. It was a shock to see how different the levels are, when riders at that time I thought were brilliant would ride in the EL and suddenyl be completely outclassed. EL was a lot stronger in those days, mind. That is an understatement. We're just keeping the thread alive until Darcy gives us more to talk about... and keep chasing the record of the infamous Norbolds hole! Sod off!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Before the Shawcross report and the merger of the two leagues, wasn't the Provincial League (technically a 2nd division) home to a large number of decent riders? Due to the lack of numbers in the top flight then? It's probably more accurate to say it gave a start to a lot riders that became good, and probably fair to say the whole standard of the Provincisl League was raised immeasurably in the five years of its existence. Len Silver for example was only ever a 4/5 point second string in the then National League in several years with Ipswich , but when he dropped to the Provincial League with Exeter he became PL Champion in 1962 which was the pinnacle of his career but by the time the old PL combined with the NL a lot of young riders were coming through who were to go on to much greater things than Len Silver ever achieved. Not just Msuger but a number of top riders of the late 60's and 70's like Ray Wilson Malcolm Simmons , Norman Hunter Colin Pratt Trevor Hedge and Eric Boocock, all came through the ranks of the Provincial League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Before the Shawcross report and the merger of the two leagues, wasn't the Provincial League (technically a 2nd division) home to a large number of decent riders? Due to the lack of numbers in the top flight then? I did quote a number of the top riders in the old Provincial League some pages ago! Sod off!!! Well, you know what you have to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 You lot are determined to get this thread past the 6300 number, is that a record ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 You lot are determined to get this thread past the 6300 number, is that a record ? Well done Aleksandr - you did it. :rofl: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 He rode PL but not NL and he consider by some to be the most naturally talented rider ever. Proof the PL is better! Really what League did Michael Lee ride in? World Champion at 22? and consider by some to have been the most naturally gifted rider. So that must prove you 'PL is Better' wrong Unless your saying World Finals were a lot easer than GP's back then? I used to watch PL speedway regularly at Sheffield. Watching it, you form your own ideas of who are brilliant riders and who are not so good. It was a shock to see how different the levels are, when riders at that time I thought were brilliant would ride in the EL and suddenyl be completely outclassed. EL was a lot stronger in those days, mind. What years are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 The Provincial League is an interesting one. It was considered to be a league consisting of over-the-hill veterans and completes novices when it first sprung up in 1960, but as people have said, it developed quickly and nurtured many riders who developed into stars after the formation of the British League in 1965. So where do you place it? Level with the modern day National League (third tier), or above the Div 2/NL of 1968-1990? And how high should be NL Div One of 1946-1964 be placed? At times, ALL the best riders in the world were condensed into just SEVEN teams. Amazing some of the riders who occupied reserve berths at times in this period.... All the best Rob Really what League did Michael Lee ride in? World Champion at 22? and consider by some to have been the most naturally gifted rider. Mike Lee was actually World Champ at the age of 21 (Peter Craven and Ronnie Moore also achieved this feat; Craven is still the youngest World Champion). But Mike Lee never really rode just NL - he was really a King's Lynn rider, who also rode for Boston in his first year. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 I did quote a number of the top riders in the old Provincial League some pages ago! Well, you know what you have to do! Indeed Norbold. Although it didn't fall into the timeframe that we were discussing so I think it slipped by. It would be fantastic if a similar shake up of the sport could take place now and the years of prosperity that followed be replicated.. sadly I think we all know that isn't going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Surely as soon as foreigners were allowed into the second division is when it become it's strongest. Before then as it was only Brits you were excluding a lot of riders. if you made the PL British riders only today you'd end up with a load of MDL rider in it. But you'd still have the top guys like Craig Cook in it. The real strength of the league is more the bottom guys than the top guys. So once again, how many riders in the 80s and earlier who rode as a NL reserve and also rode in a World/European (as it was then) final? Because this season we have Stef Nielsen and Victor Palovara both doing it. Really what League did Michael Lee ride in? World Champion at 22? and consider by some to have been the most naturally gifted rider. So that must prove you 'PL is Better' wrong Unless your saying World Finals were a lot easer than GP's back then? My post was a joke - picking one rider to prove a point is silly. For Darcy Ward, a better example would be Tai Woffinden who won a World title at aged 22 and as you point out, so did Mike Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 The Provincial League is an interesting one. It was considered to be a league consisting of over-the-hill veterans and completes novices when it first sprung up in 1960, but as people have said, it developed quickly and nurtured many riders who developed into stars after the formation of the British League in 1965. So where do you place it? Level with the modern day National League (third tier), or above the Div 2/NL of 1968-1990? And how high should be NL Div One of 1946-1964 be placed? At times, ALL the best riders in the world were condensed into just SEVEN teams. Amazing some of the riders who occupied reserve berths at times in this period.... All the best Rob Mike Lee was actually World Champ at the age of 21 (Peter Craven and Ronnie Moore also achieved this feat; Craven is still the youngest World Champion). But Mike Lee never really rode just NL - he was really a King's Lynn rider, who also rode for Boston in his first year. All the best Rob Yes you are quite correct that, he rode for Boston and Kings Lynn but, did he not make his league début for Boston Surely as soon as foreigners were allowed into the second division is when it become it's strongest. Before then as it was only Brits you were excluding a lot of riders. if you made the PL British riders only today you'd end up with a load of MDL rider in it. But you'd still have the top guys like Craig Cook in it. The real strength of the league is more the bottom guys than the top guys. So once again, how many riders in the 80s and earlier who rode as a NL reserve and also rode in a World/European (as it was then) final? Because this season we have Stef Nielsen and Victor Palovara both doing it. My post was a joke - picking one rider to prove a point is silly. For Darcy Ward, a better example would be Tai Woffinden who won a World title at aged 22 and as you point out, so did Mike Lee. I must apologise, I did not realise it was a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 For Darcy Ward, a better example would be Tai Woffinden who won a World title at aged 22 and as you point out, so did Mike Lee. Nah, Mike Lee was World Champ at 21 and Tai at 23. But yes, for me, Woffy is definitely more of a natural talent than Ward. Ward throws his bike all over the place, whereas Woffy looks far more in tune and as one with the bike. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 The Provincial League is an interesting one. It was considered to be a league consisting of over-the-hill veterans and completes novices when it first sprung up in 1960, but as people have said, it developed quickly and nurtured many riders who developed into stars after the formation of the British League in 1965. So where do you place it? Level with the modern day National League (third tier), or above the Div 2/NL of 1968-1990? And how high should be NL Div One of 1946-1964 be placed? At times, ALL the best riders in the world were condensed into just SEVEN teams. Amazing some of the riders who occupied reserve berths at times in this period.... All the best Rob Mike Lee was actually World Champ at the age of 21 (Peter Craven and Ronnie Moore also achieved this feat; Craven is still the youngest World Champion). But Mike Lee never really rode just NL - he was really a King's Lynn rider, who also rode for Boston in his first year. All the best Rob Contradicted yourself there mate. He did ride in National League for Boston ergo he was a National League Rider. Unless I am missing something of course. Perhaps Boston were not in the National League - and it was all a dream. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Nah, Mike Lee was World Champ at 21 and Tai at 23. But yes, for me, Woffy is definitely more of a natural talent than Ward. Ward throws his bike all over the place, whereas Woffy looks far more in tune and as one with the bike. All the best Rob That's a difficult thing to judge really.. How can you quantify 'natural talent'. In Ward's case you could argue he has a great deal of success with very little effort... whereas Tai, to reach the top has become the ultimate professional. I would say Ward has more natural talent, but Tai has maximised the natural talent that he has. Tai used to be quite wild on a bike, often crashing. He rides much more sensibly now. Contradicted yourself there mate. He did ride in National League for Boston ergo he was a National League Rider. Unless I am missing something of course. Perhaps Boston were not in the National League - and it was all a dream. :rolleyes: You and a few others keep dredging this up, but you do realise its proving precisely the point that you've been arguing against? Lee went straight into the BL with some meetings in the NL.. the NL quickly became too easy for him and he went to the harder challenge. Exactly what many of us have been saying all along. When riders became good, the majority of them moved up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Surely as soon as foreigners were allowed into the second division is when it become it's strongest. Before then as it was only Brits you were excluding a lot of riders. if you made the PL British riders only today you'd end up with a load of MDL rider in it. But you'd still have the top guys like Craig Cook in it. The real strength of the league is more the bottom guys than the top guys. So once again, how many riders in the 80s and earlier who rode as a NL reserve and also rode in a World/European (as it was then) final? Because this season we have Stef Nielsen and Victor Palovara both doing it. My post was a joke - picking one rider to prove a point is silly. For Darcy Ward, a better example would be Tai Woffinden who won a World title at aged 22 and as you point out, so did Mike Lee. I think this is open to debate. Back in 88/ 89 'Yes I know I'm only picking certain years ' You had a fair few Aussies. Who showed tremendous talent in there 1st season of racing. i.e Todd Wiltshire,Craig Boyce, Leigh Adams. With in Todd's case 2nd in the 1990 world Final. 88 No 7 for Wimbledon NL, On the rostrum within 2 years. This with the Likes of Loram, Dugard, Chris Louis made for a very competitive League. Good foreigner riders yes will make the league better, just like the Aussies back then but, imo there are a lot of very average foreign riders riding here at the expense of young English riders. Hence Imo why we as a nation lack top quality riders Excluding Woffindon and Lambert of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 That's a difficult thing to judge really.. How can you quantify 'natural talent'. In Ward's case you could argue he has a great deal of success with very little effort... whereas Tai, to reach the top has become the ultimate professional. I would say Ward has more natural talent, but Tai has maximised the natural talent that he has. Tai used to be quite wild on a bike, often crashing. He rides much more sensibly now. You and a few others keep dredging this up, but you do realise its proving precisely the point that you've been arguing against? Lee went straight into the BL with some meetings in the NL.. the NL quickly became too easy for him and he went to the harder challenge. Exactly what many of us have been saying all along. When riders became good, the majority of them moved up. I actually agree with you BW. However Lucifer Sam clearly stated that Lee was not a National League Rider. I merely pointed out that he was for a spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) I actually agree with you BW. However Lucifer Sam clearly stated that Lee was not a National League Rider. I merely pointed out that he was for a spell. No I didn't. I said he was never just a NL rider, because he was riding for BL KL at the same time. He blatantly rode for Boston - I said as much. TWK, you seem to have just confused. Lee didn't move up during 1975. He was riding for KL from the start of that year, as well as Boson, hence him never being just a NL rider. All the best Rob Edited July 15, 2015 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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