Darcy Ward

[SCB]

So are we almost agreeing now that early NL (70s and early part of 80s) was no great shakes, in part because the BL was so big so anyone any good was in that league. But as the BL shrunk in the mid-80s and the NL got bigger that the top end of the NL did become a LOT stronger but the bottom did still have some not so great riders.

 

So basically, it depends exactly what years we're talking?

[BWitcher]

So are we almost agreeing now that early NL (70s and early part of 80s) was no great shakes, in part because the BL was so big so anyone any good was in that league. But as the BL shrunk in the mid-80s and the NL got bigger that the top end of the NL did become a LOT stronger but the bottom did still have some not so great riders.

 

So basically, it depends exactly what years we're talking?

 

Agreed..

 

I retract my earlier comments that the 70's early 80's NL was of an average or mediocre standard... It was below average.

 

The later era was of an average standard overall, with some good riders at the top, average riders in the middle and below average at the bottom.

[waiheke1]

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

 

 

A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!.

A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL riders.

 

Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, andaveraged over 6. In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Martin Dixon averaged around 5.5 for Halifax. In 86 the likes of Les Collins, Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Of those only Wigg in 82 rode at reserve. Those are xamples I can think of off the top of my head, there would be many others.

 

Which PL riders can score as many in the PL as EL? Cook/King certainly don’t. Possibly riders who are 2^nd sting in the EL can due to the easier heat format, but the EL is much stronger than PL. People use Doyle as an example (in the old days you wouldn’t be a number 1 in both leagues) – but that shows the trenght – doyle is a top 20 in the world rider, so its really like say Jan Andersson or Phuil Ctump doubling down to the NL in the 80s – of course they would be a number 1 in the NL!

 

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

. For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL.

No he couldn’t have been number 1 in the BL – refer above to my Doyle example. You’re proving the strength of today’s PL.

He also wouldn’t have “no problem” scroring double figures today. As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”.

Two meetings where I saw Yeates ride stand out for me. One was the 83 NL Pairs, where he won his last 4 rides to win Weymouth the title. The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement. He made the gate as I recall in every heat, but was picked off to finish with 2 points from his five riders. Quite simply, he was not good enough to compete at that level, whereas he was a top NL rider. Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP.

 

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL.

How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league.

 

Gavan, on 11 Jul 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I started watching National league in the 1980's at Rye House and the national league back in the 80's through to the 90' was far far tougher than the premier league now.

 

Garrard, Cox, Silver, Woods, Kennett, Dugard, Hunter, J Owen, T Owen, L.Collins, Wyer, Crabtree, Monaghan, Jackson, Finch, Lawson, Mckinna, Yeates, Wigg, Butler, Thorp, Galvin, Loram, Schofield, Wiltshire, Ferriera, Luckhurst, R Morton

 

I could list loads of riders in that 10 year period who would quite simply top the premier league averages today but yet would struggle in the British League

 

if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land

That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today. Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one god season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too. Other ssuch as Les Collins and Joe Owen had many seasons as BL heat leaders, and could have remained as heat leaders but chose the “easy life.”

Regardless, you could give a list of equally good or better riders who have ridden PL over the last 10 years.

 

 

 

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 8:12 PM, said:

I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth?

 

As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them!

Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates.

True, but that shows the standard of British riders has fallen, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.

 

 

BWitcher, on 11 Jul 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

 

No you haven't.

 

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

 

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

 

Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three.

 

Gavan, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Lets look at the top premier league riders today and the top national league boys in the late 80;s early 90's then shall we.

 

Cook, Stead, King, Kennett, Masters are probably the best riders in the league.

Back in the late 80's riders of their calibre would have struggled to make the British Final.

 

You had Galvin, Loram , Louis, Schofield, Boyce, Adams, Wiltshire, Crump, Butler, Thorp.

 

All these riders bar Galvin and Schoey made the World Final.

 

Im puzzled how anyone in their right mind thinks the premier league is stronger now. my team are in it and yes the racing is good but its not a great standard.

 

Take the league from 1981 and its stronger than now.

Take the league from 1989 its still stronger.

 

How hard it was to make the British final is irrelevant to how strong the NL was?

I agree that the late 80s NL was srtonger than the 702/early 80s, as the reduced number of BL teams meant more decent riders rode second tier.

But none of the riders you named rode NL while reaching world finals – the closest was Thorp in 86 falling a round short, and that was a year when he cleaned up the NL.

You’ve given 8 riders over a 7ish year period who rode NL who subsequently reached world finals. You could do the same today.

 

 

tyler42, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!.

Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2^nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also.

Are any EL reserves today as weak as say the Gledhill/Barret pairing of the 82 Cradley side that should have won the league? Any riders as weak as say Mark Crang or Stephen Collins? Any pair not better than say the Hackett/Slater pairing that was part of the unbeated Coventry BL side of 87?

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

The British league did. Mauger,Collins,Sjosten,)Louis,Sanders,Davey. )Betts,Lee, Turner.) Kennett, Moran Woods.) Gundersen,Penhall, Grahame, Collins. ) Wilson Jessup Boulger.) Mauger Autrey,Titman) Ashby Kilby Andersson) Shirra Andersson Jonsson ) Just a few there over different years the BL was very good up to about 1986 in my opinion.There were weak teams of course but most of those were very good at home and had big home advantages.A thing that you FORGET is most sides then had a proper number 1 how many are there in the EL now?i have to say if you cant see that the level then was a much higher level then maybe i need glasses.

Out of the EL sides, I would say only Wolves (due to Lindgren’s poor form) do not have a genuine number one, maybe Coventry at a push. Though I would argue both Freddie and Harri s are as good/better as a number of BL number ones in the 80s (Owen and Campbell/Mauger in 84, Woods in 83, Knight in 85 etc.) Poole have two “number ones.”

 

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

Believe me it was was far from MEDIOCRE and i take people's opinion who i respect who watched regular NL racing alot more seriously than your poorly thought out belief it is so odvious you did not see NL racing.I would love to here what Tsunami had to think about those really good Newcastle sides over the years were they full of mediocrity!! in the old NL.

Noone has said the league was mediocre, nor the racing. As for those Newcastle sides, they were very good, but certainly no representative of the league’s overall standard.

 

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

I will not mention any top class riders in this list these riders were BL second/ string reserve riders some better some even reached British finals winners/and higher.All well respected started in the NL, Auffrett,Bastable,N.Evitts,Pendlebury,Janke,Kennedy,Ferreira,Holloway,Hunt,Flatman,Jolly,Etheridge,Glover,M.Hines,Rossiter,Knight,Cross, Cartwright,Johns,Middleditch,Gagen,Finch,Galvin,Maxfield,Turner,Gachet,Dixon,Graham,Gugielmi,Mullett,Hewlett did well a massive loss) Mckeon,Howgego,Cox,Harding(massive loss) Drury,Woods,Herne,Weatherby,Geer,Lanham,Greer,J.Owen,T.Lomas,P.Carr,L.Carr,D.Kennett,Hunter,Mckinna,Reg.Wilson,Underwood,Thorp,White,Tyrer,Wigg,Richardson,Sampson,M.Piddock,Willmott,Thomas,Plant, Perks, Peterson.A few there some underachieved bigtime but my point was the old NL/ D2 served a purpose and it was far from MEDIOCRE.

 

Most of those riders were mediocre. That’s not an insult.

Ask any Liverpool fan what they think of Djimi Traoore, and mediocre would be the most favourable response you’d get. But if you’d gone to school with him, he would have been by far the best footballer in his year. If you’d played social club football with him you’d think he was awesome. But for a preofessional top-flight footballer he was mediocre. IT doesn’t mean he’s not good at footballer, or better than you or I. Just by the standards of thjose who do that as a profession, he is average. Which by definition, at least 50% of any profression must be. A mediocre builder is still a better builder than I am, and capable of doing a decent job – its not an insult!

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 8:46 PM, said:

I bow down to YOUR Words of WISDOM?? this is from a bloke who said the NL was a MEDIOCRE league.Full of JOURNEYMAN ( old men on the slide) and MEDIOCRE riders. Lee,Collins, Havelock,Loram four English world champions they started there journey in the NL oh but they only rode in it because it was EASY yeh Right!!!

Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league.

Edited July 14, 2015 by waihekeaces1

[BWitcher]

Superb post Waiheke!

[Guest]

My English is good anough to debate with the likes of you,oh sorry no one really debates with you do they unless they agree with you.The NL from my way of thinking you know nothing about it to be honest,you never saw half of the riders if any that i named.Yet your disgusting remark about past riders was uncalled for, tyler exposed you early on and you have been in a little strop ever since.Your best bet is to give Gustix a tinkle he will put you straight about the MEDIOCRE NL have a listen you might LEARN something.

 

Why ask me? I know no more than the proverbial "next man"...and most BSF posters will say "far less."

[stratton]

Why ask me? I know no more than the proverbial "next man"...and most BSF posters will say "far less."

Lets have your opinion i respect it you know more than most on here so what is it.?

[BWitcher]

Lets have your opinion i respect it you know more than most on here so what is it.?

 

Once again Sidney,

 

There is no opinion involved. History has already spoken, the facts are available to anyone.

 

Read waihekeaces1's post. It covers every point and explains it all to you.

[stratton]

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

 

 

A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!.

A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL riders.

 

Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, andaveraged over 6. In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Martin Dixon averaged around 5.5 for Halifax. In 86 the likes of Les Collins, Paul Thorp, Gary Havelock were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6. Of those only Wigg in 82 rode at reserve. Those are xamples I can think of off the top of my head, there would be many others.

 

Which PL riders can score as many in the PL as EL? Cook/King certainly don’t. Possibly riders who are 2^nd sting in the EL can due to the easier heat format, but the EL is much stronger than PL. People use Doyle as an example (in the old days you wouldn’t be a number 1 in both leagues) – but that shows the trenght – doyle is a top 20 in the world rider, so its really like say Jan Andersson or Phuil Ctump doubling down to the NL in the 80s – of course they would be a number 1 in the NL!

 

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

. For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL.

No he couldn’t have been number 1 in the BL – refer above to my Doyle example. You’re proving the strength of today’s PL.

He also wouldn’t have “no problem” scroring double figures today. As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”.

Two meetings where I saw Yeates ride stand out for me. One was the 83 NL Pairs, where he won his last 4 rides to win Weymouth the title. The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement. He made the gate as I recall in every heat, but was picked off to finish with 2 points from his five riders. Quite simply, he was not good enough to compete at that level, whereas he was a top NL rider. Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP.

 

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL.

How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league.

 

Gavan, on 11 Jul 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I started watching National league in the 1980's at Rye House and the national league back in the 80's through to the 90' was far far tougher than the premier league now.

 

Garrard, Cox, Silver, Woods, Kennett, Dugard, Hunter, J Owen, T Owen, L.Collins, Wyer, Crabtree, Monaghan, Jackson, Finch, Lawson, Mckinna, Yeates, Wigg, Butler, Thorp, Galvin, Loram, Schofield, Wiltshire, Ferriera, Luckhurst, R Morton

 

I could list loads of riders in that 10 year period who would quite simply top the premier league averages today but yet would struggle in the British League

 

if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land

That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today. Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one god season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too. Other ssuch as Les Collins and Joe Owen had many seasons as BL heat leaders, and could have remained as heat leaders but chose the “easy life.”

Regardless, you could give a list of equally good or better riders who have ridden PL over the last 10 years.

 

 

 

tyler42, on 11 Jul 2015 - 8:12 PM, said:

I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth?

 

As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them!

Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates.

True, but that shows the standard of British riders has fallen, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.

 

 

BWitcher, on 11 Jul 2015 - 11:44 PM, said:

 

No you haven't.

 

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

 

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

 

Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three.

 

Gavan, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:56 AM, said:

Lets look at the top premier league riders today and the top national league boys in the late 80;s early 90's then shall we.

 

Cook, Stead, King, Kennett, Masters are probably the best riders in the league.

Back in the late 80's riders of their calibre would have struggled to make the British Final.

 

You had Galvin, Loram , Louis, Schofield, Boyce, Adams, Wiltshire, Crump, Butler, Thorp.

 

All these riders bar Galvin and Schoey made the World Final.

 

Im puzzled how anyone in their right mind thinks the premier league is stronger now. my team are in it and yes the racing is good but its not a great standard.

 

Take the league from 1981 and its stronger than now.

Take the league from 1989 its still stronger.

 

How hard it was to make the British final is irrelevant to how strong the NL was?

I agree that the late 80s NL was srtonger than the 702/early 80s, as the reduced number of BL teams meant more decent riders rode second tier.

But none of the riders you named rode NL while reaching world finals – the closest was Thorp in 86 falling a round short, and that was a year when he cleaned up the NL.

You’ve given 8 riders over a 7ish year period who rode NL who subsequently reached world finals. You could do the same today.

 

 

tyler42, on 12 Jul 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!.

Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2^nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also.

Are any EL reserves today as weak as say the Gledhill/Barret pairing of the 82 Cradley side that should have won the league? Any riders as weak as say Mark Crang or Stephen Collins? Any pair not better than say the Hackett/Slater pairing that was part of the unbeated Coventry BL side of 87?

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

The British league did. Mauger,Collins,Sjosten,)Louis,Sanders,Davey. )Betts,Lee, Turner.) Kennett, Moran Woods.) Gundersen,Penhall, Grahame, Collins. ) Wilson Jessup Boulger.) Mauger Autrey,Titman) Ashby Kilby Andersson) Shirra Andersson Jonsson ) Just a few there over different years the BL was very good up to about 1986 in my opinion.There were weak teams of course but most of those were very good at home and had big home advantages.A thing that you FORGET is most sides then had a proper number 1 how many are there in the EL now?i have to say if you cant see that the level then was a much higher level then maybe i need glasses.

Out of the EL sides, I would say only Wolves (due to Lindgren’s poor form) do not have a genuine number one, maybe Coventry at a push. Though I would argue both Freddie and Harri s are as good/better as a number of BL number ones in the 80s (Owen and Campbell/Mauger in 84, Woods in 83, Knight in 85 etc.) Poole have two “number ones.”

 

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

Believe me it was was far from MEDIOCRE and i take people's opinion who i respect who watched regular NL racing alot more seriously than your poorly thought out belief it is so odvious you did not see NL racing.I would love to here what Tsunami had to think about those really good Newcastle sides over the years were they full of mediocrity!! in the old NL.

Noone has said the league was mediocre, nor the racing. As for those Newcastle sides, they were very good, but certainly no representative of the league’s overall standard.

 

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

I will not mention any top class riders in this list these riders were BL second/ string reserve riders some better some even reached British finals winners/and higher.All well respected started in the NL, Auffrett,Bastable,N.Evitts,Pendlebury,Janke,Kennedy,Ferreira,Holloway,Hunt,Flatman,Jolly,Etheridge,Glover,M.Hines,Rossiter,Knight,Cross, Cartwright,Johns,Middleditch,Gagen,Finch,Galvin,Maxfield,Turner,Gachet,Dixon,Graham,Gugielmi,Mullett,Hewlett did well a massive loss) Mckeon,Howgego,Cox,Harding(massive loss) Drury,Woods,Herne,Weatherby,Geer,Lanham,Greer,J.Owen,T.Lomas,P.Carr,L.Carr,D.Kennett,Hunter,Mckinna,Reg.Wilson,Underwood,Thorp,White,Tyrer,Wigg,Richardson,Sampson,M.Piddock,Willmott,Thomas,Plant, Perks, Peterson.A few there some underachieved bigtime but my point was the old NL/ D2 served a purpose and it was far from MEDIOCRE.

 

Most of those riders were mediocre. That’s not an insult.

Ask any Liverpool fan what they think of Djimi Traoore, and mediocre would be the most favourable response you’d get. But if you’d gone to school with him, he would have been by far the best footballer in his year. If you’d played social club football with him you’d think he was awesome. But for a preofessional top-flight footballer he was mediocre. IT doesn’t mean he’s not good at footballer, or better than you or I. Just by the standards of thjose who do that as a profession, he is average. Which by definition, at least 50% of any profression must be. A mediocre builder is still a better builder than I am, and capable of doing a decent job – its not an insult!

 

sidney, on 12 Jul 2015 - 8:46 PM, said:

I bow down to YOUR Words of WISDOM?? this is from a bloke who said the NL was a MEDIOCRE league.Full of JOURNEYMAN ( old men on the slide) and MEDIOCRE riders. Lee,Collins, Havelock,Loram four English world champions they started there journey in the NL oh but they only rode in it because it was EASY yeh Right!!!

Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league.

One person did say that the old NL was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and as it was Div 2 so it had to be EASY and it was a was a poor relation.That person was WItcher that statement was the one i hated totally untrue and everybody else have come up with great debate and put there case well you included.I don't agree with what you said about Yeates that year reaching the OVERSEAS Final outweighs anything the riders you named have achieved in there careers up to now.In the EL Ward,Puk,Doyle Janowski are the only in/out number 1s in my opinion.

Once again Sidney,

 

There is no opinion involved. History has already spoken, the facts are available to anyone.

 

Read waihekeaces1's post. It covers every point and explains it all to you.

Bulls... !! what a loser you are,like i said before i respect Gustix because of his knowledge, you i have lost all respect for do you know why? because you don't know how to respect other people's OPINION if they differ from your own.On this thread there is NO FACT at all,myself,tyler,Gavan,Skidder have all different opinions to you it does not mean we are right also it does not mean we are wrong.I spoke to a few who go on the forum at Swindon last night and they also don't agree with you but you know what they can't be assed to debate with you. As one of them said to me he does not no how to DEBATE and i i should know better as i said before your flaw is your certainty.

[BWitcher]

One person did say that the old NL was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and as it was Div 2 so it had to be EASY and it was a was a poor relation.That person was WItcher that statement was the one i hated totally untrue and everybody else have come up with great debate and put there case well you included.I don't agree with what you said about Yeates that year reaching the OVERSEAS Final outweighs anything the riders you named have achieved in there careers up to now.In the EL Ward,Puk,Doyle Janowski are the only in/out number 1s in my opinion.

Bulls... !! what a loser you are,like i said before i respect Gustix because of his knowledge, you i have lost all respect for do you know why? because you don't know how to respect other people's OPINION if they differ from your own.On this thread there is NO FACT at all,myself,tyler,Gavan,Skidder have all different opinions to you it does not mean we are right also it does not mean we are wrong.I spoke to a few who go on the forum at Swindon last night and they also don't agree with you but you know what they can't be assed to debate with you. As one of them said to me he does not no how to DEBATE and i i should know better as i said before your flaw is your certainty.

 

Sidney, give it up.

 

Have you even read Waiheke's post? He is not agreeing with you in any shape or form.

 

He 100% categorically confirms that the National League was full of journeymen/mediocre riders. He goes further than that and confirms that in actual fact the league had a lot of riders of a LOWER standard than that.

 

Yourself, Tyler and Gavan have come up with various lists of riders, none of which proved anything, none of which had any relevance and ALL have been shown to not back your argument up in Waiheke's detailed post above.

 

Incidentally, being certain about something isn't a flaw when what you are certain of is 100% correct. A flaw is being certain about something that is utterly wrong and I'm afraid that's where you have a problem Sidney, not me.

[SCB]

One person did say that the old NL was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and as it was Div 2 so it had to be EASY and it was a was a poor relation.That person was WItcher that statement was the one i hated totally untrue and everybody else have come up with great debate and put there case well you included.I don't agree with what you said about Yeates that year reaching the OVERSEAS Final outweighs anything the riders you named have achieved in there careers up to now.In the EL Ward,Puk,Doyle Janowski are the only in/out number 1s in my opinion.

It was mediocre. The PL is now. It's average, it's the middle of 3 leagues. They are journeymen. And it was easier than the BL (now EL). That doesn't mean it was easy, just easier. Id' not call a 6 year old. But a 6 year old is OLDER than a 5 year old. Easier is a relative term.

 

As for the suggestion that scoring 2 in an overseas final is easier than 7 in a GP - come on!

[stratton]

It was mediocre. The PL is now. It's average, it's the middle of 3 leagues. They are journeymen. And it was easier than the BL (now EL). That doesn't mean it was easy, just easier. Id' not call a 6 year old. But a 6 year old is OLDER than a 5 year old. Easier is a relative term.

 

As for the suggestion that scoring 2 in an overseas final is easier than 7 in a GP - come on!

A freebie meeting at Cardiff for Cook where lets be honest the racing is average at best Cardiff is a event the racing poor allso he failed badly the year before Auty looked better.Yeates do your RESEARCH he scored 2 in the Overseas Final i went i saw his journey through getting through a tough British Final that year as a NL rider.I appreciate you would not know that as i think you saw zilch of the old NL racing my OPINION only as you have yours. Edited July 14, 2015 by sidney

[SCB]

Cook finished 9th in a GP. That meant he was 9th best rider in the World - throw in Emil and Laguta and make him 11th. Yeates didn't even make top 16!

 

I think you're confusing exciting riders with good riders.

 

 

What about BWitchers question from earier. How many NL reserves made it to a World/European Under 21 final?

Edited July 14, 2015 by SCB

[stratton]

Sidney, give it up.

 

Have you even read Waiheke's post? He is not agreeing with you in any shape or form.

 

He 100% categorically confirms that the National League was full of journeymen/mediocre riders. He goes further than that and confirms that in actual fact the league had a lot of riders of a LOWER standard than that.

 

Yourself, Tyler and Gavan have come up with various lists of riders, none of which proved anything, none of which had any relevance and ALL have been shown to not back your argument up in Waiheke's detailed post above.

 

Incidentally, being certain about something isn't a flaw when what you are certain of is 100% correct. A flaw is being certain about something that is utterly wrong and I'm afraid that's where you have a problem Sidney, not me.

Are you piss.. or what ?when you debate it is a opinion only in every post you make you say it is FACT.I say the league was not easy,you say it was Dogs.... OPINION that all it is but as we know you HAVE to be right at any cost sad really.Four people disagree with you on this thread, i spoke to three people last night they said you were out with the Fairies seven people hardly a overwhelming case for you don't you think?

Cook finished 9th in a GP. That meant he was 9th best rider in the World - throw in Emil and Laguta and make him 11th. Yeates didn't even make top 16!

 

I think you're confusing exciting riders with good riders.

 

 

What about BWitchers question from earier. How many NL reserves made it to a World/European Under 21 final?

Please SCB you are talking ? that GP is a fa cup type meeting ninth best in the world right.Do your RESEARCH see what rounds Yeates got through and the level of rider he got through on merit. Edited July 14, 2015 by sidney

[BWitcher]

Are you piss.. or what ?when you debate it is a opinion only in every post you make you say it is FACT.I say the league was not easy,you say it was Dogs.... OPINION that all it is but as we know you HAVE to be right at any cost sad really.Four people disagree with you on this thread, i spoke to three people last night they said you were out with the Fairies seven people hardly a overwhelming case for you don't you think?

Please SCB you are talking ? that GP is a fa cup type meeting ninth best in the world right.Do your RESEARCH see what rounds Yeates got through and the level of rider he got through on merit.

 

Sidney, you don't even know what the debate was about anymore.

 

I said the National League consisted of mediocre/journeymen riders. That is Fact. Not an opinion.

 

You're now wittering about whether the league was easy, that's something totally different. Whether a league is easy depends upon your level. If you are a good rider, its going to be fairly easy, hence why some older riders dropped down a league as they get older and why good younger riders soon moved up a league.. If you are a mediocre/average/journeyman level rider its going to be a good level of league to ride in. If you are a below average rider, of which there were lots in the National League then its going to be a very tough level to ride in.

A freebie meeting at Cardiff for Cook where lets be honest the racing is average at best Cardiff is a event the racing poor allso he failed badly the year before Auty looked better.Yeates do your RESEARCH he scored 2 in the Overseas Final i went i saw his journey through getting through a tough British Final that year as a NL rider.I appreciate you would not know that as i think you saw zilch of the old NL racing my OPINION only as you have yours.

 

Interesting thing you say here Sidney..

 

Yeates got through a 'tough' British FInal as a NL rider....

 

That statement alone of yours confirms what I've been saying all along.

[lucifer sam]

Interesting topic. And one where it is almost impossible to give a definitive answer, because there's always a valid counterpoint. Everyone's opinion is different and equally valid.

 

For me, though:

 

British League - was at its toughest from 1985 to 1990, when the number of teams was reduced from 18 to 20 down to 9 to 11, and yet the league still contained virtually all the world's top riders.

 

National League - much, much harder to answer. In the 1970s and even into the 1980s, it was possible for a novice to make an instant impression in this league. But maybe this is because these days a rider has to tune up their machinery over a number of years, whereas back in 1970, everyone was on cheap and not very good machinery. That's not really an answer, is it? OK then. The modern-day cosmopolitan Premier League is probably now stronger than it's ever been. Probably too strong, because half the teams can't afford to pay the riders competing in it.

 

However, in terms of strength of British riders ONLY: definitely at its peak from 1973 to 1977, maybe that period could be extended from 1972 to 1980.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited July 14, 2015 by lucifer sam

[stratton]

Sidney, you don't even know what the debate was about anymore.

 

I said the National League consisted of mediocre/journeymen riders. That is Fact. Not an opinion.

 

You're now wittering about whether the league was easy, that's something totally different. Whether a league is easy depends upon your level. If you are a good rider, its going to be fairly easy, hence why some older riders dropped down a league as they get older and why good younger riders soon moved up a league.. If you are a mediocre/average/journeyman level rider its going to be a good level of league to ride in. If you are a below average rider, of which there were lots in the National League then its going to be a very tough level to ride in.

 

Interesting thing you say here Sidney..

 

Yeates got through a 'tough' British FInal as a NL rider....

 

That statement alone of yours confirms what I've been saying all along.

ARROGANT is the word me old mucker, and if you had EVER seen the product you PREACH about i would take your opinion more seriously.I don't you guess alot, i said six people plus me all of them have seen quite alot of the old NL action more than you and SCB ever have (ie both of you as far as i know never see a live Old NL meeting? The subject is about debate your point is not FACT just your MEDIOCRE opinion.!!!

[van wolfswinkel]

Great display of riding from Darcia at Blunsdon last night...the next Briggo, a real natural talent.

The big crowd soon warmed to him.

[lucifer sam]

Great display of riding from Darcia at Blunsdon last night...the next Briggo, a real natural talent.

The big crowd soon warmed to him.

 

Who? We're discussing team strengths here.

 

All the best

Rob

[sommelier]

 

Who? We're discussing team strengths here.

 

All the best

Rob

Sorry mate, your on the wrong forum for Darcy Ward, this is the Sidney & Bwitcher forum!

[BWitcher]

ARROGANT is the word me old mucker, and if you had EVER seen the product you PREACH about i would take your opinion more seriously.I don't you guess alot, i said six people plus me all of them have seen quite alot of the old NL action more than you and SCB ever have (ie both of you as far as i know never see a live Old NL meeting? The subject is about debate your point is not FACT just your MEDIOCRE opinion.!!!

 

It's nothing to do with seeing the product.

 

You yourself have told me the best riders rode in the BL. You yourself have told me that riders in the NL would for the most part struggle in the BL.

 

Therefore, from what YOU have taught me, the riders in the NL were of an average standard.. i.e. Mediocre.

 

Or do you now want to change YOUR verdict from YOUR years of watching?