Darcy Ward

[BWitcher]

Sorry, Cry and Whinge. What are you on about. I could say the same about you because, Let's face it you only seem to answer half my questions! Funny enough the one's what suit your side of the argument.

 

As for a debate you wouldn't know one if it came up and smacked you round the head.

 

The debate has been well covered across the past few pages.

 

Only you and Sidney seem to be getting worked up and failing to comprehend some pretty basic points being made.

 

Other posters have more than backed up my initial claim, giving sound factual reasons as to why.

 

Nothing has been forthcoming from your side other than a list of names who rode perhaps 1 or 2 seasons in the league, over a 20 year period and were nowhere near their best when they did so. That leaves a good 300+ riders at a level below them, none of whom you've come up with yet.

 

Your other points regarding lack of British riders etc I agree with, but that has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Not personal it is FACT you said the league was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and because it was Div 2 it was second rate.The rest of the points are very valid indeed,but your statement is way off the mark and you cannot go back on it simple really.

 

Of course I said that!

 

Simply because it was. Although it seems I over-estimated the strength of it.

 

As Grachan says, only SOME of the riders were MEDICORE and JOURNEMAN.... Many of them were worse

 

So yes, I agree, my statement was off the mark, I gave the league more credit that it was due.

 

Thanks for pointing out my error Sidney

[iris123]

For me, the PL went downhill when Mason Wear stopped sponsoring riders

[stratton]

The debate has been well covered across the past few pages.

 

Only you and Sidney seem to be getting worked up and failing to comprehend some pretty basic points being made.

 

Other posters have more than backed up my initial claim, giving sound factual reasons as to why.

 

Nothing has been forthcoming from your side other than a list of names who rode perhaps 1 or 2 seasons in the league, over a 20 year period and were nowhere near their best when they did so. That leaves a good 300+ riders at a level below them, none of whom you've come up with yet.

 

Your other points regarding lack of British riders etc I agree with, but that has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

 

Of course I said that!

 

Simply because it was. Although it seems I over-estimated the strength of it.

 

As Grachan says, only SOME of the riders were MEDICORE and JOURNEMAN.... Many of them were worse

 

So yes, I agree, my statement was off the mark, I gave the league more credit that it was due.

 

Thanks for pointing out my error Sidney

Not an error it is your opinion, and you entitled to it like everybody else.Myself and Tyler i don't see us getting het up we just differ from your opinion that's all nothing personal i liked the old NL it served a purpose.

[E I Addio]

Not personal it is FACT you said the league was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and because it was Div 2 it was second rate.The rest of the points are very valid indeed,but your statement is way off the mark and you cannot go back on it simple really.

Did, get your dictionary out. A journeyman is literally a qualified tradesman who has served his a apprenticeship but is not a Master craftsman in Speedwáy terms that clearly means a decent rider who is not ready for the top league. Bwitchervwas spot on with that description.

 

Mediocre simply means medium, average, middle of the road etc .

 

Clearly to describe riders as journeymen or mediocre is in no sense of the word an insult or a put down,it simply means competent without being the best . If they were the best they obviously wouldn't be in the lower league.

Edited July 13, 2015 by E I Addio

[stratton]

Did, get your dictionary out. A journeyman is literally a qualified tradesman who has served his a apprenticeship but is not a Master craftsman in Speedwáy terms that clearly means a decent rider who is not ready for the top league. Bwitchervwas spot on with that description.

Mediocre simply means medium, average, middle of the road etc .

Clearly to describe riders as journeymen or mediocre is in no sense of the word an insult or a put down,it simply means competent without being the best . If they were the best they obviously wouldn't be in the lower league.

Was the old NL MEDIOCRE in your opinion? forget the dictionary and the twaddle was it a EASY bread/butter league to ride in Yes or No.

[tyler42]

 

The debate has been well covered across the past few pages.

 

Only you and Sidney seem to be getting worked up and failing to comprehend some pretty basic points being made.

 

Other posters have more than backed up my initial claim, giving sound factual reasons as to why.

 

Nothing has been forthcoming from your side other than a list of names who rode perhaps 1 or 2 seasons in the league, over a 20 year period and were nowhere near their best when they did so. That leaves a good 300+ riders at a level below them, none of whom you've come up with yet.

 

Your other points regarding lack of British riders etc I agree with, but that has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

 

Of course I said that!

 

Simply because it was. Although it seems I over-estimated the strength of it.

 

As Grachan says, only SOME of the riders were MEDICORE and JOURNEMAN.... Many of them were worse

 

So yes, I agree, my statement was off the mark, I gave the league more credit that it was due.

 

Thanks for pointing out my error Sidney

I don't think we are going to resolve this debate one way or another. It's all about opinions. I have mine you have yours. At the end of the day They are opinions not fact. I'm certainly not getting worked up. As for other posters giving factual evidence to back up your case. Impossible to do.Just like me and you, they can only give there opinion.

 

 

I think he is pretty spot on Sidney. Lee and Collins didn't hang around long enough to dominate the NNL, they had bigger ambitions and moved on quickly.

 

Remember how many clubs came into existence between 1968 and 1975. These new track needed new riders. A combination of old hands past their first division best and raw rookies came along to staff these clubs. Guys bought bikes one week and were league racing the next. By 1988 the NL was a whole heap stronger than its 1978 counterpart for the reasons Grachan has highlighted earlier

 

None of that is to decry the old NNL/NL, it did exactly what it was set up to do, develop riding talent for the BL. Prior to the late 80s and the NL promoters deciding they wanted to rival the BL rather than work together it worked pretty well. As more riders got cushy in the NL so the BL relied on cheaper foreign imports starting the path to where we are today

I think to be fair to my side of the argument, I have quoted riders mainly from the late 80's and imo It was a tough league then and not a league full of journeyman.

Edited July 13, 2015 by tyler42

[BWitcher]

I don't think we are going to resolve this debate one way or another. It's all about opinions. I have mine you have yours. At the end of the day They are opinions not fact. I'm certainly not getting worked up. As for other posters giving factual evidence to back up your case. Impossible to do.Just like me and you, they can only give there opinion.

I think to be fair to my side of the argument, I have quoted riders mainly from the late 80's and imo It was a tough league and not a league full of journeyman.

 

It's not about opinions and very much is about facts.

 

The league comprised of journeymen and lower level riders. That is 100% fact.

 

There was a league called the British League above it, which consisted of better riders. That is 100% fact.

 

As for your riders from the late 80's, you are moving into the modern era after foreign riders were allowed into the league, its not the period under discussion, which is the late 70's/early 80's. The league became stronger at that point.

[stratton]

It's not about opinions and very much is about facts.

 

The league comprised of journeymen and lower level riders. That is 100% fact.

 

There was a league called the British League above it, which consisted of better riders. That is 100% fact.

 

As for your riders from the late 80's, you are moving into the modern era after foreign riders were allowed into the league, its not the period under discussion, which is the late 70's/early 80's. The league became stronger at that point.

A massive WEAKNESS on your part,why couldn't you have just said it is about opinions and leave it at that your CERTAINTY on thing's is worrying.

[BWitcher]

A massive WEAKNESS on your part,why couldn't you have just said it is about opinions and leave it at that your CERTAINTY on thing's is worrying.

 

Because this isn't about opinions.

 

How many riders were British Champion whilst riding in the National League in the 70's/early 80's?

 

How many riders reached a World Final whilst riding in the National League in the 70's/early 80's?

 

If the leagues as good as you say it was there will be plenty.. look forward to the list.

[tyler42]

 

It's not about opinions and very much is about facts.

 

The league comprised of journeymen and lower level riders. That is 100% fact.

 

There was a league called the British League above it, which consisted of better riders. That is 100% fact.

 

As for your riders from the late 80's, you are moving into the modern era after foreign riders were allowed into the league, its not the period under discussion, which is the late 70's/early 80's. The league became stronger at that point.

Sorry but. you have seemed to have changed the goal posts. I have nearly, in all my posts mentioned riders from the late 80's I even put a video up this morning to counter you video of the early 80's. So please don't tell me what period we are discussing. I think you will find in 88 only 2 riders were foreign. Both actually riding for Rye House and It was still the National League not the modern era.

[mdmc82]

So Ward was set to join Lakeside originally

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/13409185.Speedway__Promoter_Ford_favoured_Lakeside_switch_for_Darcy/?ref=twtrec

[norbold]

Why are you interrupting this thread by talking about Darcy Ward, mdmc82?

[BWitcher]

Sorry but. you have seemed to have changed the goal posts. I have nearly, in all my posts mentioned riders from the late 80's I even put a video up this morning to counter you video of the early 80's. So please don't tell me what period we are discussing. I think you will find in 88 only 2 riders were foreign. Both actually riding for Rye House and It was still the National League not the modern era.

 

Even so, the facts remain the same, it was the 2nd division.

 

So by definition the riders were at best of average standard. The majority of above average riders would be in the top flight.

 

It's really not complicated.

[tyler42]

 

Because this isn't about opinions.

 

How many riders were British Champion whilst riding in the National League in the 70's/early 80's?

 

How many riders reached a World Final whilst riding in the National League in the 70's/early 80's?

 

If the leagues as good as you say it was there will be plenty.. look forward to the list.

Sorry but why are all of a sudden quoting 70's/early 80's The National league went right up to 1990. Then in 91 it reverted back to British league division 2.

 

Even so, the facts remain the same, it was the 2nd division.

 

So by definition the riders were at best of average standard. The majority of above average riders would be in the top flight.

 

It's really not complicated.

It's certainly not complicated but, you seem to be making a good job of doing so.

[mdmc82]

Why are you interrupting this thread by talking about Darcy Ward, mdmc82?

Clue in the title 👍🏻

[tyler42]

 

Even so, the facts remain the same, it was the 2nd division.

 

So by definition the riders were at best of average standard. The majority of above average riders would be in the top flight.

 

It's really not complicated.

At last so we both agree The Premier League of today is no better than The National League back then, as by your definition It is the 2nd tier and that riders are at best average standard? and I would say quite a few journeymen to boot.

[BWitcher]

At last so we both agree The Premier League of today is no better than The National League back then, as by your definition It is the 2nd tier and that riders are at best average standard? and I would say quite a few journeymen to boot.

 

Except you are wrong again as the best riders in the PL don't have to move up anymore, than can go into the top league and continue riding full time in the PL. In the past they wouldn't, they'd be gone.

 

But you are right, the league still predominantly consists of average riders and journeymen, just as it always has.

 

Doesn't mean its a bad league to watch!

Edited July 13, 2015 by BWitcher

[norbold]

Clue in the title

Now you're confusing the whole thing with facts.

[BWitcher]

Now you're confusing the whole thing with facts.

 

Who is this Darcy Ward?

 

Is he good? What league does he ride in?

[tyler42]

 

Except you are wrong again as the best riders in the PL don't have to move up anymore, than can go into the top league and continue riding full time in the PL. In the past they wouldn't, they'd be gone.

 

But you are right, the league still predominantly consists of average riders and journeymen, just as it always has.

 

Doesn't mean its a bad league to watch!

The reason why so many PL riders ride in the EL, as we both know is a money saving excise. unfortunately speedway in Britain has fallen to such a low standard that it has to use PL riders to fill the numbers not because how good these riders are.

 

Yes you are quite correct in that imo the PL from what I have seen on TV Is far more exciting to watch. It's just a shame that PL riders riding in the EL are not there because they are too good for the PL but, a necessity to prop up the EL.