waiheke1 Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Lucifer Sam actually said he never rode "just" nl - which is true, he was an early "double downer." Edit: too slow, LS beat me to the reply Edited July 15, 2015 by waihekeaces1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) It really is quite quaint, how in the absence of REAL debate over substance. Some here just argue and argue over the minutest of semantics going back 40 years. But, was Michael Lee 'really NL' or 'not just NL' For god's sake Get me a drink, Darcy. Or something stronger, Mike. I need it. . Edited July 15, 2015 by Grand Central 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Really what League did Michael Lee ride in? World Champion at 22? and consider by some to have been the most naturally gifted rider. So that must prove you 'PL is Better' wrong Unless your saying World Finals were a lot easer 3than GP's back then? What years are you talking about? Not sure exactly. I remember watching Lee Complin and thinking he was so good, then went to Reading to watch him. I expected him to be brilliant, but he just struggled at the back all night. By the way, wasn't Michael Lee NNL, not NL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Not sure exactly. I remember watching Lee Complin and thinking he was so good, then went to Reading to watch him. I expected him to be brilliant, but he just struggled at the back all night. By the way, wasn't Michael Lee NNL, not NL? Taken from his Wikipedia page. I assume it is correct. Maybe not? I'm not sure. Lee began his professional speedway career in 1975 with Boston in the second division of speedway in the United Kingdom, the National League. In his first season he recorded an impressive average points score of 9.13, he also rode part-time for top division team King's Lynn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) No I didn't. I said he was never just a NL rider, because he was riding for BL KL at the same time. He blatantly rode for Boston - I said as much. TWK, you seem to have just confused. Lee didn't move up during 1975. He was riding for KL from the start of that year, as well as Boson, hence him never being just a NL rider. All the best Rob I hadn't realised that the Higgs Boson Collider had been going so long. :D Taken from his Wikipedia page. I assume it is correct. Maybe not? I'm not sure. Lee began his professional speedway career in 1975 with Boston in the second division of speedway in the United Kingdom, the National League. In his first season he recorded an impressive average points score of 9.13, he also rode part-time for top division team King's Lynn Pedantic I know. BUT, Game Set and Match to me I think. If you believe Wikipedia. Edited July 15, 2015 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) If you believe Wikipedia. Does anyone? :D Just checked Hawkeye, which reveals: March 16: Lee makes Boston debut, the first of 39 appearances for Boston in 1975. March 28: Lee makes KL debut, the first of 27 appearances for KL in 1975. So Lee was never just a NL rider, as per my original statement. Point overturned. Championship to Lucifer Sam, while TWK says "you cannot be serious" and breaks his racket. All the best Rob Edited July 15, 2015 by lucifer sam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Taken from his Wikipedia page. I assume it is correct. Maybe not? I'm not sure. Lee began his professional speedway career in 1975 with Boston in the second division of speedway in the United Kingdom, the National League. In his first season he recorded an impressive average points score of 9.13, he also rode part-time for top division team King's Lynn In 1974 it was the Second Division In 1975 it was the New National League In 1976 it was the National League. I know this is correct. I'm a genius on 1974 to 1975 speedway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 On 15 September 1974 Iwade Juniors took on a Mildenhall Fen Tigers junior team. The 15 year old Michael Lee, riding for Mildenhall, took a massive 1.5 seconds off the track record in heat 11 He scored 7 paid 9. The speedway Star felt that Michael Lee could be a "name to watch in the future." While Michael said that his dad would prefer him to concentrate on scrambling. Just thought I'd mention it as it's before 1975.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 On 15 September 1974 Iwade Juniors took on a Mildenhall Fen Tigers junior team. The 15 year old Michael Lee, riding for Mildenhall, took a massive 1.5 seconds off the track record in heat 11 He scored 7 paid 9. The speedway Star felt that Michael Lee could be a "name to watch in the future." While Michael said that his dad would prefer him to concentrate on scrambling. Just thought I'd mention it as it's before 1975.... So does that mean that Iwade and Mildenhall juniors were better than todays PL teams because Michael Lee was riding? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Didn't Peter Collins, Chris Morton and Dave Morton all ride around the same field in Manchester? If so, that field is better than half the teams in the current Elite League, plus 22 Polish sides. All the best Rob Edited July 15, 2015 by lucifer sam 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Norbold mentioned Wal Morton in a previous Post. In how many leagues was he involved with in that 32 year career (1932-1964)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Norbold mentioned Wal Morton in a previous Post. In how many leagues was he involved with in that 32 year career (1932-1964)? Three? National League 1st Div, National League 2nd Div, Provincial League. I think...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Norbold mentioned Wal Morton in a previous Post. In how many leagues was he involved with in that 32 year career (1932-1964)? Three? National League 1st Div, National League 2nd Div, Provincial League. I think...... ...and there was.... 1964 Metropolitan League appearances: For Ipswich 5+2 (4) v Rayleigh July 21 For Weymouth 3+1 (4) at Rayleigh August 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Definition of journeyman is "a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding" You're right, some journeymen will be better than others. They could be viewed as a 'star' depending upon the level they were racing at. Nigel Crabtree for example, riding in the 2nd division was an undoubted 'star'. However, in the overall context of the professional speedway leagues he was a journeyman rider of average ability. That's not a knock on him, or a criticism, just the reality of the level he was at. However, to the fans of clubs he rode for, particularly Stoke I imagine, he would be as bigger star as Hans Nielsen was in the top flight. A rider of similar ability could ply his trade in the top flight all his career and not be remembered anywhere near as fondly (if that's the right word) but his ability was no less. Once again, not once on the entire thread has this been questioned. You have the issue by again trying to argue against something that has never been said.. i.e. creating an argument in your head. As for your other point, I'm afraid if a team is racing in a higher league they do have 'superiority'. That's how sport works, it's really not a difficult concept to understand. Although again, its a fictitious argument that you have created as nowhere has there been anyone claiming 'my team is better than yours' blah blah. May as well say how dare people label Ivan Mauger and Tony Rickardsson as superior riders, just because they won 6 world titles! You as usual see what you need to see to score petty points rather than further the discussion. Denigrating comments were made against BL2/PL - that isn't in my head, it's on record in this thread. You really do scrape the barrel in trying to find something to row over. Getting lonely in the sun? As for superiority it is the mentality of some EL fans that they have some kind of automatic superiority over supporters from lower leagues. Personally, I'm glad I grew up on the Essex coast, thus discovering speedway through the Rayleigh Rockets, rather than in a hell-hole like Wolverhampton. I was referring to supporters, not promotions, teams or riders. Obviously it's difficult for you being so remote from British Speedway out there but do try at least to read what's being said. Nice try but a dismal failure. Anyway, I'll leave you to find someone else to play with. Life's far too short to discuss matters with a compulsive arguer like you. (Yes it is a forum - but that doesn't give people like you licence to continually browbeat and bore others). Edited July 15, 2015 by rmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) That's a difficult thing to judge really.. How can you quantify 'natural talent'. In Ward's case you could argue he has a great deal of success with very little effort... whereas Tai, to reach the top has become the ultimate professional. I would say Ward has more natural talent, but Tai has maximised the natural talent that he has. Tai used to be quite wild on a bike, often crashing. He rides much more sensibly now. You and a few others keep dredging this up, but you do realise its proving precisely the point that you've been arguing against? Lee went straight into the BL with some meetings in the NL.. the NL quickly became too easy for him and he went to the harder challenge. Exactly what many of us have been saying all along. When riders became good, the majority of them moved up. At 16 Witcher,Lee averaged over 9 points a meeting he as far as i know had done just interval rides aged 14/15 around Lynn and some training tracks some up north as well.He averaged 9 because he was exceptional so was Collins Carter they did great also.Those three did not post averages like Louis,P.Crump, Sansom, in the old div 2 why? because it was hard.Those three were ambitious wanted to move up and to be fair Littlechild/. Crane, Oliver,Boothroyd all great speedway men mapped there careers out for them.The majority of the good riders in the old NL DID not move up, they stayed doing what there comfort zone told them also why not they were loved and made a decent living riding at certain clubs. Edited July 15, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 ...and there was.... 1964 Metropolitan League appearances: For Ipswich 5+2 (4) v Rayleigh July 21 For Weymouth 3+1 (4) at Rayleigh August 1 Ah, yes. Quite right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) Does anyone? :D Just checked Hawkeye, which reveals: March 16: Lee makes Boston debut, the first of 39 appearances for Boston in 1975. March 28: Lee makes KL debut, the first of 27 appearances for KL in 1975. So Lee was never just a NL rider, as per my original statement. Point overturned. Championship to Lucifer Sam, while TWK says "you cannot be serious" and breaks his racket. All the best Rob We all knew that Sam it is not rocket science, but he did not start out as a full time BL rider did he? unlike say a Kelvin Tatum and a Jeremy Doncaster. You as usual see what you need to see to score petty points rather than further the discussion. Denigrating comments were made against BL2/PL - that isn't in my head, it's on record in this thread. You really do scrape the barrel in trying to find something to row over. Getting lonely in the sun? As for superiority it is the mentality of some EL fans that they have some kind of automatic superiority over supporters from lower leagues. Personally, I'm glad I grew up on the Essex coast, thus discovering speedway through the Rayleigh Rockets, rather than in a hell-hole like Wolverhampton. I was referring to supporters, not promotions, teams or riders. Obviously it's difficult for you being so remote from British Speedway out there but do try at least to read what's being said. Nice try but a dismal failure. Anyway, I'll leave you to find someone else to play with. Life's far too short to discuss matters with a compulsive arguer like you. (Yes it is a forum - but that doesn't give people like you licence to continually browbeat and bore others). Great post and i have been mug anough to argue to i am blue in the face against him for WHAT.?I like Witcher he adds alot to the forum and always will but can he RESPECT if somebody goes against his way of thinking? Edited July 15, 2015 by sidney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 Norbold mentioned Wal Morton in a previous Post. In how many leagues was he involved with in that 32 year career (1932-1964)? Three? National League 1st Div, National League 2nd Div, Provincial League. I think...... ...and there was.... 1964 Metropolitan League appearances: For Ipswich 5+2 (4) v Rayleigh July 21 For Weymouth 3+1 (4) at Rayleigh August 1 Ah, yes. Quite right. Wal Morton must have been towards 53 years old when he made these last speedway track appearances in 1964? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 15, 2015 Report Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) You as usual see what you need to see to score petty points rather than further the discussion. Denigrating comments were made against BL2/PL - that isn't in my head, it's on record in this thread. You really do scrape the barrel in trying to find something to row over. Getting lonely in the sun? As for superiority it is the mentality of some EL fans that they have some kind of automatic superiority over supporters from lower leagues. Personally, I'm glad I grew up on the Essex coast, thus discovering speedway through the Rayleigh Rockets, rather than in a hell-hole like Wolverhampton. I was referring to supporters, not promotions, teams or riders. Obviously it's difficult for you being so remote from British Speedway out there but do try at least to read what's being said. Nice try but a dismal failure. Anyway, I'll leave you to find someone else to play with. Life's far too short to discuss matters with a compulsive arguer like you. (Yes it is a forum - but that doesn't give people like you licence to continually browbeat and bore others). No denigrating comments have been made on the thread at ANYTIME. If it's on record on the thread, go ahead and quote it. Nor is there any 'superiority complex' from EL fans. The only people who have this complex are Premier League fans like you who never shut up about how great the racing is in the PL, how much better the product is in the PL and slag off the Elite League at every given opportunity. Newsflash for you, Speedway is a great sport at ALL levels. I don't care if its GP level, Polish League, Elite League, Premier League or MDL if you have riders of a fairly equal ability putting on an exciting race its fantastic. The league is an irrelevance. You have offered absolutely NOTHING to this thread other than create something that isn't there and now fire of a load of insulting personal nonsense. If you'd bothered to read you'll have noticed that there are numerous folk who have been engaged in this debated, at least 9 or 10 throughout the thread, there has been lots of intelligent interesting posts regarding a range of different topics/periods/leagues. All you have brought to it is poison. Sidney and I have banter, I find Sidney fun, frustrating at times, but harmless enough.. You on the other hand are clearly a nasty piece of work. At 16 Witcher,Lee averaged over 9 points a meeting he as far as i know had done just interval rides aged 14/15 around Lynn and some training tracks some up north as well.He averaged 9 because he was exceptional so was Collins Carter they did great also.Those three did not post averages like Louis,P.Crump, Sansom, in the old div 2 why? because it was hard.Those three were ambitious wanted to move up and to be fair Littlechild/. Crane, Oliver,Boothroyd all great speedway men mapped there careers out for them.The majority of the good riders in the old NL DID not move up, they stayed doing what there comfort zone told them also why not they were loved and made a decent living riding at certain clubs. Sidney, the thread has moved on in your absence. Everyone is in total agreement now except for yourself who I'm afraid STILL doesn't grasp it. A 'good' rider in the National League was an average rider at best. It's been explained to you over and over and over by numerous posters. Example: So in conclusion: the NL WAS full of journeymen and mediocre riders. Sounds like we're all agreed That's not an insult to them, to the fans of the clubs they rode for they were 'stars', they were their best riders and were loved and quite rightly so. They found the level that was best for them and enjoyed great careers. Edited July 15, 2015 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 BWitcher, You're talking to yourself. Find someone else who's prepared to play your sad mind games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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