Darcy Ward

[tyler42]

Remember the old inter leaguecup? 1975 Swindon refused to race Boston as they said it would be insulting to their fans to race 2nd division opposition!

 

 

Would that be the same Boston who beat Hackney in the 1975 Inter-League Knockout Cup. Who themselves had a poor season but, not as bad as Swindon!

Edited July 14, 2015 by tyler42

[waiheke1]

Yep, a great result, and one that was remarkable for its rarity.

Remember that great Newcastle side of 82/83 that then stepped up to the BL in 84 and finished bottom. Competitive at home, poor away. Joe Owen was a genuine BL heat leader, hunter and the recruited barge decent but the rest - bwitchers "m" word comes to mind.

[tyler42]

Yep, a great result, and one that was remarkable for its rarity.

Remember that great Newcastle side of 82/83 that then stepped up to the BL in 84 and finished bottom. Competitive at home, poor away. Joe Owen was a genuine BL heat leader, hunter and the recruited barge decent but the rest - bwitchers "m" word comes to mind.

I have to agree with you there. I'm sure I saw Joe Owen and Rod Hunter score nearly all of Newcastle's points at Weymouth in 82 or 83. I think Joe got a 21 max and Hunter weren't that far behind.

 

Keep it quite but, bwitchers 'm' word would definitely apply for that meeting!

[Grachan]

Swindon were crap in 1975. That's probably the real reason if they didn't want to ride against Boston.

[BWitcher]

Right about what? you ent got a scoobies clue about the subject you are ranting about.

 

I don't need to know, just sit back and watch you get yourself in such a muddle you end up arguing with yourself.

 

We've now established, courtesy of you, that one of the NL's top riders was the equivalent of Rochdale.

 

Now THAT'S an insult.

[The Doctor...]

A championship meeting it was like Rochdale beating Man Utd ,

 

Rochdale ?

 

Jesus..i was almost on your side for a few minutes during this car crash of a thread til you said that.

 

I've had a long shift so please dont give me any pseudo threats while i'm sleeping..i'll cover your costs if you want to come up to the big smoke..

 

Regards

[waiheke1]

sidney, on 15 Jul 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

One person did say that the old NL was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and as it was Div 2 so it had to be EASY and it was a was a poor relation.That person was WItcher that statement was the one i hated totally untrue and everybody else have come up with great debate and put there case well you included.I don't agree with what you said about Yeates that year reaching the OVERSEAS Final outweighs anything the riders you named have achieved in there careers up to now.In the EL Ward,Puk,Doyle Janowski are the only in/out number 1s in my opinion.

HE didn't say the league was easy, he said it was made up primarily of mediocre riders. He made clear that by mediocre he meant "average." He hasn't denied there were some good riders, but also there were some poor ones.

You wouldn't class Zagar (reigning world number 4, currently5th in GPS), Holder (world champ in 2012, currently 6th in GPS) or Jonsson (2011 world no 2, currently 10th in GPs) as out and out number ones!?!

 

 

lucifer sam, on 15 Jul 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

Interesting topic. And one where it is almost impossible to give a definitive answer, because there's always a valid counterpoint. Everyone's opinion is different and equally valid.

 

For me, though:

 

British League - was at its toughest from 1985 to 1990, when the number of teams was reduced from 18 to 20 down to 9 to 11, and yet the league still contained virtually all the world's top riders.

 

National League - much, much harder to answer. In the 1970s and even into the 1980s, it was possible for a novice to make an instant impression in this league. But maybe this is because these days a rider has to tune up their machinery over a number of years, whereas back in 1970, everyone was on cheap and not very good machinery. That's not really an answer, is it? OK then. The modern-day cosmopolitan Premier League is probably now stronger than it's ever been. Probably too strong, because half the teams can't afford to pay the riders competing in it.

 

However, in terms of strength of British riders ONLY: definitely at its peak from 1973 to 1977, maybe that period could be extended from 1972 to 1980.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Largely agree with you Rob.

The on rider I would add is that by the late 80s the sport in Britain had prematurely lost a number of geneuine superstars – Penhall, Sigalos, Lee, Carter, Sanders , so while the league was still tougher than the early 80s, not as tough as it could have been. And the reduced number of teams meant riders having to drop down to NL who were still good enough to be at least good BL 2^nd strings. I would agree, as has been mentioned earlier, that this arguably meant the NL was also much stronger in the late 80s than the 70s/early 80s.

I certainly agree re: British riders

tyler42, on 15 Jul 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

 

Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, and averaged over 6.

 

Yes he did but only from 11 matches

 

In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6.

 

 

Joe Owen 7 meetings only for Leicester averaged 5.93

 

Simon Wigg 7 Meetings only 6.67

 

Martin Dixon 12 meetings only 5.5

 

So yes Rob Maxifield and Simon Wigg posted averages over 6. Joe Owen and Martin Dixon did not.

​A common thread with all riders named is, they did not ride a full season! which consisted of 48 meetings in 82

 

Les Collins Sheffield 11 meetings

Paul Thorpe 3 meetings

Gary Havelock 15 meetings

 

​Once again a full season was 47 meetings. Havelock with 15 meetings ridden is the only fair comparison and that is not even half a seasons racing.

 

With Owen in 82 you didn’t include his meeting for Cradley which pushed his BL average over 6.Regardless, your statement was that a top NL rider would struggle to score 2 points in the B, even riding from reserve. What my examples show is that is false (Dixon’s 5.5 average is higher than 2 if my maths is right) I can’t show you an NL heatleader who rode a full BL season the same year, as riders didn’t “double up/down” full time then.

 

As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”.

 

In your opinion , not fact.

Of course – it is purely my opinion that cook is better than Yeates..

 

The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement.

 

I would have have thought the British Final of the same year would have been a far greater achievement when you see the riders he was racing against.

Pos. Rider Points Details Kenny Carter 13 (3,1,3,3,3) Andy Grahame 12 (3,2,3,1,3) Dave Jessup 11 (2,3,2,2,2) 4 Les Collins 10 (2,3,1,3,1) 5 Martin Yeates 10 (1,3,3,1,2) 6 Alan Grahame 9 (3,0,3,3,X) 7Simon Wigg 8 (X,0,3,2,3) 8 Jeremy Doncaster 8 (X,2,2,1,3) 9 Peter Collins 7 (1,1,1,2,2) 10 Neil Evitts 7 (3,2,2,0,0) 11 Gordon Kennett 6 (2,1,1,2,0) 12 Chris Morton 5 (X,1,2,1,1) 13 John Louis 4 (X,2,0,0,2) 14 Phil Collins 3 (X,0,X,3,X) 15 John Davis 3 (1,1,0,0,1) 16 Mark Courtney 2 (2,0,0,0,0) 17

 

You miss my point. My statement was that reaching the Overseas final (i.e. qualifying from the British final) was his greatest achievement. I agree, in horrendous conditions he finished ahead of a number of quality riders, and this was an excellent achievement (the rarity of NL riders making it past the BL round surely is an argument AGAINST the standard of the NL though?)

 

Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP.

 

Craig Cooks 1st ride was fantastic, beating the world champion, ex world champion and a world class rider in Janowski. There is no denying that but, in his next race he scored 1 point. 3 riders only finished. 3rd in his next beating Chris Harris (not to hard to do. Most wildcards beat Chris). a last in his next.

Then picked up 2 points beating the meeting reserves. At closer inspection his 7 points are not so impressive.

It’s purely opinion, but I believe the GP field Cook faced was stronger than that of the 84 British final and that Cook’s 7 points in that meeting are more impressive than Yates 10 in the British Final. But that’s just my opinon, not a fact.

 

How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league.

 

I agree to a certain extent but, The four you have named are all English. Back then The national League did not have any foreign riders untill 88 and then it was only 2!

As you said all of the named world champions did not ride in the NL. Being all foreign, Not permitted,hence how can you make a comparison?

 

The nationality of riders surely doesn’t make a difference as to how tough the league is? You seem to be agreeing with me, that the PL is now tougher as foreign riders are allowed in it. I agree that the standard of British riders was higher in previous years, but the point under discussion was whether the NL was tougher than the PL.

 

That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today.

 

Once again that is your opinion, not fact.

Yes opinion. But would be interested as to why you think those riders are better than Cook, Stead, King etc.

 

Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one good season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too.

 

Paul Thorpe rode 6 years in the NL before moving up full time with Bell Vue and Simon Wigg had 3 full seasons at Weymouth before moving up with Cradley.

Yes Thorp rose 6 seasons, but as soon as he had one really good season (86 where he topped the averages, won the NLRC and reached the intercontinental final), he moved up to BL. Wigg said himself that he stayed too long in the NL and should have moved up earlier.

 

Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates.

 

I don't think I ever saw Yates crash as many times as Barker and Stead. Maybe his was too slow to crash or could it be he was a far better rider. Once again only opinions on both sides, not fact.

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

 

Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three.

 

Incorrect, Why by definition can you only have 10 - 15 world class riders? Are you going by riders making a world Final or No 1's of the British League?

I might add That nearly all of the world's top riders of that era rode in the BL. Whereas now it's Poland and Sweden.

Just my opinion, but I would consider a world class rider to be one you think capable of finishing on the podium in a one off World Final, or scoring a maximum in a world team cup final. In the old BL (prior to 88) I would normally have taken a BL average of 10 as a rudimentary cut off for “world class”, 9 for “international class” anmd 8 for “decent heat leader.”

 

By your definition the EL has 8 clubs so in that respect It only needs 8 not 15 but, how many riders would you class as world class? Holder, Ward, Janowski, Zager, Iversen, Jonsson and Doyle. I can name 7.

I agree

The closest we can make comparisons would be 89. Then the BL had only 9 clubs.

I’d say that by 89 t(probably from 85 onwards) the BL sides were stronger than the earlier period (70s/early80s), due to the reduction in number of treams. I would argue that the league then was closer to the current standard of Poland, whereas the earlier period I think was comparable to the current EL.Although I didn’t explicitly state t, my comparisions of current EL strength vs old BL were based on 15/16 teams.So no argument from me, the BL86-89 was stronger than the current EL.

I would imo say these riders were world class. Belle Vue had the Moran Bros. Cradley had Erik Gundersen and Jan o Pedersen. Reading Jem Doncaster.

Kelvin Tatum Coventry. Oxford Hans Nielsen and Simon Wigg. Wolves Sam Ermolenko. Swindon Jimmy Nilsen.

 

So from 9 teams There were only 10 riders. So not a lot in to be fair but, then we come to 2nd and 3rd heat leaders,In your opinion would you say, That Belle Vue's Scott Nicholls and Craig Cook would match

Chris Morton and Peter Ravn. Coventry's Hans Andersen and Chris Harris v Rick Miller and John Jorgenson. Kings Lynn's Kenneth Bjerre and Rory Schlein v Richard Knight Lance King.

Swindon Troy Bacherlor and Nick Morris v Brian Karger and Andrew Silver. Wolves Freddy Lindgren and Peter Karlsson v Ronnie Correy and Neil Collins. There's no Poole of the 80's to compare but, Lets take Oxford. Poole Janowski and Dak North v Martin Dugard heat leader Andy Graham 2nd string. I would say Swindon 2015, Wolves 2015 are a better combo and Poole and Oxford equal. The others I give to the 89 teams.

I’d say the Coventry pair are quite evenly matched as well.

When it comes to 2nd strings. In your opinion riders such as Jacob Thorsell, Davey Watt, Zengota, Porsing, Kennet, I would say Lawson but, he seems to be deemed a heat leader and Sam Masters. would all be of a far better class than say Neil Evetts, Andy Smith, Marvyn Cox,Troy Butler,

 

Per above, I agree that the 89 BL teams were much stronger than their 2015 equivalents.

But try comparing say the 1984 teams (or any other year where there were 15+ BL teams) with the 2015 sides, and they will look much more even.

 

Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2^nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also.

 

Reserves 89 Joe Screen, Carl Stonehewer, Glen Doyle Antal Koccso, Andy Hackett, Roman Matousek, Troy Butler / Andy Graham, Paul Dugard, Alan Graham, John Bostin, Andy Phillips, Jan Staechmann.

And again, I agree the 89 league was stronger. But look at reserve pairings any year up to around 86 and I don’t think there is much in it.

 

Incorrect. Riders who rode in the second half were not all novices and a lot of youngsters were farmed out to NL Clubs. Off the top of my head riders like Dave Brewer of Wimbledon went to Exeter. Martin Scarisbrick went to Newcastle. Simon Cross went to Oxford / Weymouth. You do seem to skip from year to year to back up your argument, regarding BL reserves and No 1's from the 80's. I'm using the present EL!

Yes, I’m skipping from year to year as the “pro NL Brigade” gave lists of riders covering a period from last 70s to early 90s!

Not all 2^nd half riders were poor – at belle Vue Andy Smith came though at BL, Scarisbrick became a decent NL rider, but others (Lee Edwards, the Cleggs, Glen Hornby, David Wild) went on to achieve very little, and they were really the “pick of the bunch”. For the most part the standard of those riders was current mdl/NL, certainly not current PL standard.

 

Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league.

 

I don't agree on they left just 1 or 2 seasons. Really? Which of the World Champs (Collins, Lee, Havelock, Loran rode more than 2 seasons in the NL?) I have already said Wigg and Thorpe were in that League a lot longe and the would have been others. Yes, I agree some riders stayed NL for longer. Dugard and Silver spring to mind. But if a rider wanted to improve to international standard they needed to go BL. everything else, you have said I agree 100%. The league catered for the young up and coming the experienced rider who stayed in that league all his career and the ex top riders on the way down.

I would say tyler put you right on Maxfield Owen ( ect averages also Yeates up to now has achieved more than the riders you named by reaching the overseas final.Did you see that BRiTiSH FINAL line up supplied by Tyler even you have to acknowledge it was a very good line up.

 

In what way did he put me right? He said NL riders would ride at reserve in BL and struggle to score 2 points. Which of those riders I listed averaged under 2?

Though I will acknowledge some riders struggled to make the step up (charlie Mckinna, Nigel Crabtree spring to mind) - but surely that again is an argument against the strength of the NL?

 

I would never dispute that Yeates achievement in qualifying from the 84 British final was a good one, against a quality field (have only seen the British Final on youtube, but I was at Hyde Rd for the Overseas final). That said, it wasn't a good outcome for England, as Morton and Peter Collins were in excellent form that season, and with no dis-respect, would have had a much better chance of making the world final than the likes of Yeates and Doncaster who qualified ahead of them.

[waiheke1]

So in conclusion: the NL WAS full of journeymen and mediocre riders. Sounds like we're all agreed

Edited July 15, 2015 by waihekeaces1

[stratton]

Rochdale ?

 

Jesus..i was almost on your side for a few minutes during this car crash of a thread til you said that.

 

I've had a long shift so please dont give me any pseudo threats while i'm sleeping..i'll cover your costs if you want to come up to the big smoke..

 

Regards

Doctor take a pill have a kip mate,what is wrong with Rochdale? been there once to see the footie.

[BWitcher]

So in conclusion: the NL WAS full of journeymen and mediocre riders. Sounds like we're all agreed

 

Hallelujah! We got there in the end!

[Guest]

What is a journeyman speedway rider? Should there be a way to identify them, then introduce ways to keep them from racing?

Maybe something similar could also be introduced so that mediocre riders are identified, then prevented from having long-term speedway careers?

[BWitcher]

What is a journeyman speedway rider? Should there be a way to identify them, then introduce ways to keep them from racing?

Maybe something similar could also be introduced so that mediocre riders are identified, then prevented from having long-term speedway careers?

 

What on earth are you talking about now?

 

Journeymen are the lifeblood of every sport, speedway is no different.

 

We've identified the National League was a much loved league that provided entertaining racing to fans all over the country over a long period of time.. it consisted primarily of journeymen. You advocate not having such leagues?

[SteveLyric2]

418 pages now Darcy - Well done son!

 

Welcome back.

[Guest]

 

What on earth are you talking about now?

 

Journeymen are the lifeblood of every sport, speedway is no different.

 

We've identified the National League was a much loved league that provided entertaining racing to fans all over the country over a long period of time.. it consisted primarily of journeymen. You advocate not having such leagues?

 

I thought that in some Posts I detected a vein of criticism against journeymen and, possibly, mediocre riders. From your excellent retort it seems that I may have misunderstood the previous comments in regard to journeymen and medicocre riders - it is good of you to emphasise that my reasoning was unsound.

I would add that I far from "advocate not having such leagues." Nor do I personally have anything against journeymen and mediocre riders - I was just trying to get a definition as to what they actually are and if, in such a progressive sport like modern speedway there is a place of them.

Thank you BWitcher - you have made it very clear to me that speedway does indeed need such riders. They obviously have an important role in the sport - and deservedly so.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Guest

[SCB]

What is a journeyman speedway rider? Should there be a way to identify them, then introduce ways to keep them from racing?

Maybe something similar could also be introduced so that mediocre riders are identified, then prevented from having long-term speedway careers?

A journeyman? I'd say it's a solid, dependable rider. Someone who has either been around a few years or will be a few more - not a fly by night who flukes a good season. They're the bread and butter riders, they're not likely to be a GP riders these days or World Finalist in years gone by. There nothing wrong with being one of these riders - they can often be loved more than the World class rider.

[BWitcher]

 

I thought that isn some Posts I detected a vein of criticism against journeymen and, possibly, mediocre riders.

 

Nope, you just fell for the ramblings of someone who decided that it offensive to call a rider a journeyman or mediocre. We've established it isn't.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Surely journeyman can be stars, solid dependable middle order riders, or mediocrities? I can think of riders in all those classes who went from track-to-track during their career, as indeed most speedway riders do. There were even the so-called professional juniors in the past, who were essentially journeymen as well.

[RobMcCaffery]

I don't really care what label you put on those who rode in it but BL2/NL gave me a huge amount of pleasure over the years. That's all that matters, not attempts by compulsive arguers to make out they have some superiority just because their team raced in a higher league.

 

Going back to Darcy, albeit tangentially, it's a little ironic that while the man child was riding practically unopposed to his opening four wins the only racing of any interest on Monday was coming from the two fit Fast Track reserves, Charles Wright and Kyle Newman.

 

Still, some people like names, others prefer racing, each to their own.........

[BWitcher]

Surely journeyman can be stars, solid dependable middle order riders, or mediocrities? I can think of riders in all those classes who went from track-to-track during their career, as indeed most speedway riders do. There were even the so-called professional juniors in the past, who were essentially journeymen as well.

 

 

Definition of journeyman is

 

"a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding"

 

You're right, some journeymen will be better than others.

 

They could be viewed as a 'star' depending upon the level they were racing at. Nigel Crabtree for example, riding in the 2nd division was an undoubted 'star'. However, in the overall context of the professional speedway leagues he was a journeyman rider of average ability. That's not a knock on him, or a criticism, just the reality of the level he was at. However, to the fans of clubs he rode for, particularly Stoke I imagine, he would be as bigger star as Hans Nielsen was in the top flight.

 

A rider of similar ability could ply his trade in the top flight all his career and not be remembered anywhere near as fondly (if that's the right word) but his ability was no less.

I don't really care what label you put on those who rode in it but BL2/NL gave me a huge amount of pleasure over the years. That's all that matters, not attempts by compulsive arguers to make out they have some superiority just because their team raced in a higher league.

 

Going back to Darcy, albeit tangentially, it's a little ironic that while the man child was riding practically unopposed to his opening four wins the only racing of any interest on Monday was coming from the two fit Fast Track reserves, Charles Wright and Kyle Newman.

 

Still, some people like names, others prefer racing, each to their own.........

 

Once again, not once on the entire thread has this been questioned.

 

You have the issue by again trying to argue against something that has never been said.. i.e. creating an argument in your head.

 

As for your other point, I'm afraid if a team is racing in a higher league they do have 'superiority'. That's how sport works, it's really not a difficult concept to understand. Although again, its a fictitious argument that you have created as nowhere has there been anyone claiming 'my team is better than yours' blah blah.

 

May as well say how dare people label Ivan Mauger and Tony Rickardsson as superior riders, just because they won 6 world titles!

Edited July 15, 2015 by BWitcher

[norbold]

418 pages now Darcy - Well done son!

 

 

Darcy who? And what's he got to do with this thread? Did he ever ride in the NL or the PL?