Darcy Ward

[YerRopes]

Great display of riding from Darcia at Blunsdon last night...the next Briggo, a real natural talent.

The big crowd soon warmed to him.

 

Would agree with that Keef...

 

Most surprised that the Pirates let ol' Burt go...

 

Most likely that decision will come back and 'bite them on the bum'

[The White Knight]

 

It's nothing to do with seeing the product.

 

You yourself have told me the best riders rode in the BL. You yourself have told me that riders in the NL would for the most part struggle in the BL.

 

Therefore, from what YOU have taught me, the riders in the NL were of an average standard.. i.e. Mediocre.

 

Or do you now want to change YOUR verdict from YOUR years of watching?

Oh - but I think it has.

 

I watched National League Racing week in, week out, year in and year out, so like sydney, I am qualified to comment.

 

I had not realised you were making your judgement on a few U-Tube clips.

 

The National League was a very good, entertaining League to watch. I know I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a tough League, a very tough League and it certainly was not mediocre. How could it be mediocre with all the Stars of the British League emanating from it.

 

I am sorry BW, but I am with sydney on this one.

[tyler42]

Simply not true. In 81 for example Rob Maxfield was Belle Vue’s number 8, and averaged over 6.

 

Yes he did but only from 11 matches

 

In 82, the likes of Joe Owen and Simon Wigg were number 8s for BL sides and averaged over 6.

 

 

Joe Owen 7 meetings only for Leicester averaged 5.93

 

Simon Wigg 7 Meetings only 6.67

 

Martin Dixon 12 meetings only 5.5

 

So yes Rob Maxifield and Simon Wigg posted averages over 6. Joe Owen and Martin Dixon did not.

​A common thread with all riders named is, they did not ride a full season! which consisted of 48 meetings in 82

 

Les Collins Sheffield 11 meetings

Paul Thorpe 3 meetings

Gary Havelock 15 meetings

 

​Once again a full season was 47 meetings. Havelock with 15 meetings ridden is the only fair comparison and that is not even half a seasons racing.

 

As Grachan has pointed, out only the world class riders (Puk, Ward etc.) average 8. On a good day Yeates might score 10 riding as a 2nd string, but given this is rare for the likes of Cook (who I would rate much higher), it would hardly be “no trouble”.

 

In your opinion , not fact.

 

The other was the 84 overseas final, reaching it being arguably his greatest achievement.

 

I would have have thought the British Final of the same year would have been a far greater achievement when you see the riders Yates was racing against.

 

Kenny Carter 13 (3,1,3,3,3) Andy Grahame 12 (3,2,3,1,3) Dave Jessup 11 (2,3,2,2,2) 4 Les Collins 10 (2,3,1,3,1) 5 Martin Yeates 10 (1,3,3,1,2) 6 Alan Grahame 9 (3,0,3,3,X) 7 Simon Wigg 8 (X,0,3,2,3) 8 Jeremy Doncaster 8 (X,2,2,1,3) 9 Peter Collins 7 (1,1,1,2,2) 10 Neil Evitts 7 (3,2,2,0,0) 11 Gordon Kennett 6 (2,1,1,2,0) 12 Chris Morton 5 (X,1,2,1,1) 13 John Louis 4 (X,2,0,0,2) 14 Phil Collins 3 (X,0,X,3,X) 15 John Davis 3 (1,1,0,0,1) 16 Mark Courtney 2 (2,0,0,0,0) 17

 

Compare to say Craig Cook who picked up 7 points in a GP.

 

Craig Cooks 1st ride was fantastic, beating the world champion, ex world champion and a world class rider in Janowski. There is no denying that but, in his next race he scored 1 point. 3 riders only finished. 3rd in his next beating Chris Harris (not to hard to do. Most wildcards beat Chris). a last in his next.

Then picked up 2 points beating the meeting reserves. At closer inspection his 7 points are not so impressive.

 

How many world champs came through the old PL? Lee, Collins and Loram all I belive rode in it for just on season, Havelock for two. Most world champs of the 70s/80s did not ride in it at all (Nielsen, Gundersen, Michanek, Mauger, Olsen, Ermolenko, Jonsson, Jan O). Whereas in the modern era you’ve had Crump, Pedersen, Holder, Woffinden . Either way, all it proves is that it’s a stepping stone league.

 

I agree to a certain extent but, The four you have named are all English. Back then The national League did not have any foreign riders untill 88 and then it was only 2!

As you said all of the named world champions did not ride in the NL. Being all foreign, Not permitted,hence how can you make a comparison?

 

That’s a randon mix of names. You’ve got some who were the very definition of journeymen – Monaghan, Crabtree, Ferreira, Yeates, capable of being at best decent BL 2nd strings, with no impact at higher levels. They would not top the PL averages today.

 

Once again that is your opinion, not fact.

 

Then you name the likes of Thorp who as soon as he had had one good season in the NL moved up to the BL, where he was a heat leader the next season. Wigg was a heat leader the next season too.

 

Paul Thorpe rode 6 years in the NL before moving up full time with Bell Vue and Simon Wigg had 3 full seasons at Weymouth before moving up with Cradley.

 

Yes, I think Barker, Stead and Lawson are better than Yeates.

 

I don't think I ever saw Yates crash as many times as Barker and Stead. Maybe his was too slow to crash or could it be he was a far better rider. Once again only opinions on both sides, not fact.

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

 

Correct – by definition, you can only have say 10-15 world class riders at any time. So on average in a 15 team league you’d have on average one per team. But some teams had more than one, meaning others had none let alone three.

 

Incorrect, Why by definition can you only have 10 - 15 world class riders? Are you going by riders making a world Final or No 1's of the British League?

I might add That nearly all of the world's top riders of that era rode in the BL. Whereas now it's Poland and Sweden.

 

By your definition the EL has 8 clubs so in that respect It only needs 8 not 15 but, how many riders would you class as world class? Holder, Ward, Janowski, Zager, Iversen, Jonsson and Doyle. I can name 7. The closest we can make comparisons would be 89. Then the BL had only 9 clubs.

I would imo say these riders were world class. Belle Vue had the Moran Bros. Cradley had Erik Gundersen and Jan o Pedersen. Reading Jem Doncaster.

Kelvin Tatum Coventry. Oxford Hans Nielsen and Simon Wigg. Wolves Sam Ermolenko. Swindon Jimmy Nilsen.

 

So from 9 teams There were only 10 riders. So not a lot in to be fair but, then we come to 2nd and 3rd heat leaders,In your opinion would you say, That Belle Vue's Scott Nicholls and Craig Cook would match

Chris Morton and Peter Ravn. Coventry's Hans Andersen and Chris Harris v Rick Miller and John Jorgenson. Kings Lynn's Kenneth Bjerre and Rory Schlein v Richard Knight Lance King.

Swindon Troy Bacherlor and Nick Morris v Brian Karger and Andrew Silver. Wolves Freddy Lindgren and Peter Karlsson v Ronnie Correy and Neil Collins. There's no Poole of the 80's to compare but, Lets take Oxford. Poole Janowski and Dak North v Martin Dugard heat leader Andy Graham 2nd string. I would say Swindon 2015, Wolves 2015 are a better combo and Poole and Oxford equal. The others I give to the 89 teams.

 

When it comes to 2nd strings. In your opinion riders such as Jacob Thorsell, Davey Watt, Zengota, Porsing, Kennet, I would say Lawson but, he seems to be deemed a heat leader and Sam Masters. would all be of a far better class than say Neil Evetts, Andy Smith, Marvyn Cox,Troy Butler,

 

Today’s FTR riders are as good as BL reserves I would say. Second half riders in those days were arguably the standard of Mdl riders today – there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression. OF course some 2^nd half riders did appear in the BL, and were typically outclassed – the same riders generally struggled to make an impact at NL level also.

 

 

 

Reserves 89 Joe Screen, Carl Stonehewer, Glen Doyle Antal Koccso, Andy Hackett, Roman Matousek, Troy Butler / Andy Graham, Paul Dugard, Alan Graham, John Bostin, Andy Phillips, Jan Staechmann.

 

Incorrect. Riders who rode in the second half were not all novices and a lot of youngsters were farmed out to NL Clubs. Off the top of my head riders like Dave Brewer of Wimbledon went to Exeter. Martin Scarisbrick Belle Vue went to Newcastle. Simon Cross Cradley went to Oxford / Weymouth. You do seem to skip from year to year to back up your argument, regarding BL reserves and No 1's from the 80's. I'm using the present EL!

 

there are actually much better formal structures in place today for progression.

 

 

Surely if that's the case why are there no young British riders riding at a higher standard? Unless you think Barker, Autey and Newman, Lawson, Garrtey are going to be International riders in years to come.

Of course Robert Lambert learnt his trade in Germany. So we can discount him in are debate.

 

Where in your opinion is the progression you talk of. Take Kyle Newman. He had a good season last year for Poole as a FTR but, instead of promoting him to the main body of the team so that he could progress The rules allow him to stay at reserve again. Which for Poole speedway is fantastic but,how Is he and others going to compete against the likes the young Poles. Who If they show potential, are thrown in at the deep end sink or swim. Fair enough until they are 21 they stay at reserve but, they are riding arguably in the hardest league.Lining up against the best riders in the world a touch more harder than the EL I think.

 

 

Yep, and they all left it after 1 or 2 seasons, because to become a world champ they needed to be racing at a better level. The NL served its purpose, which was a league where youngsters with potential could develop, older riders could race as their skills dimmed, and journeymen could forge a career. And for the fans, there would be good and bad meetings, just like any speedway league.

I don't agree on they left just 1 or 2 seasons. I have already said Wigg and Thorpe were in that League a lot longer and the would have been others. everything else, you have said I agree 100%. The league catered for the young up and coming the experienced rider who stayed in that league all his career and the ex top riders on the way down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2015 by tyler42

[BWitcher]

Oh - but I think it has.

 

I watched National League Racing week in, week out, year in and year out, so like sydney, I am qualified to comment.

 

I had not realised you were making your judgement on a few U-Tube clips.

 

The National League was a very good, entertaining League to watch. I know I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a tough League, a very tough League and it certainly was not mediocre. How could it be mediocre with all the Stars of the British League emanating from it.

 

I am sorry BW, but I am with sydney on this one.

 

Another who doesn't even know what the debate is!

 

You don't need to watch a single youtube clip, you don't need to have been to a single speedway meeting in your life. It is absolutely nothing to do with the quality of racing, how exciting it was or any of that. I haven't questioned any of those factors.

 

I simply stated that the riders in the National League were mediocre, journeymen riders.

 

That doesn't mean they can't put on an exciting meeting, just as you can get exciting meeting watching junior or National League meeting now, the two are not related.

 

However the simple FACT is, there's that word again, the National League was the second Division. It did NOT contain the best riders, so by definition its standard of rider... NOT racing.. was average.

 

It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

 

However, if you can name me lots of riders that won World titles, British Titles, Overseas Titles, Commonwealth Titles whilst riding in the National League then well.. maybe Sidney will have a point.

Edited July 14, 2015 by BWitcher

[The White Knight]

 

Another who doesn't even know what the debate is!

 

You don't need to watch a single youtube clip, you don't need to have been to a single speedway meeting in your life. It is absolutely nothing to do with the quality of racing, how exciting it was or any of that. I haven't questioned any of those factors.

 

I simply stated that the riders in the National League were mediocre, journeymen riders.

 

That doesn't mean they can't put on an exciting meeting, just as you can get exciting meeting watching junior or National League meeting now, the two are not related.

 

However the simple FACT is, there's that word again, the National League was the second Division. It did NOT contain the best riders, so by definition its standard was average.

 

It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

There you go again BW. If anyone has the effrontery to disagree with you you turn to personal insult.

 

I can and do understand the Debate. I even understand your argument that most of the top Riders were in Division One. That, though, does not alter the fact that the old National League was a bloody good League with lots of exciting Racing.

 

What I don't understand is how you can call a League that contained at one time or another John Louis, Peter Collins, Michael Lee and Gordon Kennett to name just four, mediocre. I know that there were journeymen Riders in the old Second Division but there were journeymen Riders too in Division One and if you are honest you will admit that.

 

Nobody, as I understand it, is saying that Division Two was better than Division One - it wasn't - it was still a great League though with some great Teams in it.

[BWitcher]

There you go again BW. If anyone has the effrontery to disagree with you you turn to personal insult.

 

I can and do understand the Debate. I even understand your argument that most of the top Riders were in Division One. That, though, does not alter the fact that the old National League was a bloody good League with lots of exciting Racing.

 

What I don't understand is how you can call a League that contained at one time or another John Louis, Peter Collins, Michael Lee and Gordon Kennett to name just four, mediocre. I know that there were journeymen Riders in the old Second Division but there were journeymen Riders too in Division One and if you are honest you will admit that.

 

Nobody, as I understand it, is saying that Division Two was better than Division One - it wasn't - it was still a great League though with some great Teams in it.

 

Again, you've shown you don't understand the point. It's not an insult, its an observation. If you actually took the time and had the manners to read what I had written you might understand.

 

I have not once mentioned the racing. IT IS IRRELEVANT in the context of this discussion.

 

You can have great racing at any level of speedway, whether its World Champions, journeymen or juniors who aren't very good.

Edited July 14, 2015 by BWitcher

[YerRopes]

 

You can have great racing at any level of speedway, whether its World Champions, journeymen or juniors who aren't very good.

 

And that my friend is the essence of the sport - as long as all riders and equipment are of a similar standard you will get a good meeting

[BWitcher]

 

And that my friend is the essence of the sport - as long as all riders and equipment are of a similar standard you will get a good meeting

 

Spot on!

 

Which is what made the racing in the old National League good of course!

[The White Knight]

 

Spot on!

 

Which is what made the racing in the old National League good of course!

I did not miss the sarcasm - but - I agreed with the statement.

[BWitcher]

I did not miss the sarcasm - but - I agreed with the statement.

 

I've never disputed it WK, which is why I commented on your post as I did, no offence was intended.

 

Quality of rider and quality of racing are two completely different entities.

Edited July 14, 2015 by BWitcher

[norbold]

The second tier was quite strong in 1951 when Jack Young won the World Championship.

 

Just saying......

[lucifer sam]

The second tier was quite strong in 1951 when Jack Young won the World Championship.

 

Just saying......

 

I guess it wasn't too shabby that year Norbold

 

All the best

Rob

[stratton]

 

This post is a very good one, very interesting indeed, i tell you what that British Final was a half decent final a great achievement by Yeates as a NL rider to qualify.I can also remember seeing Wiggy ride in the 1982 british Final as a NL rider,acquitted himself well and went on and have a great career still missed.!.

The second tier was quite strong in 1951 when Jack Young won the World Championship.

Just saying......

It was only div 2 " Norbold" so it had to be easy, Na only joking a great rider how great it is in sport to still have a chance for the underdog.I wish it still applied now, at one time every rider could have his dream and enter the WC those days have gone.

[BWitcher]

This post is a very good one, very interesting indeed, i tell you what that British Final was a half decent final a great achievement by Yeates as a NL rider to qualify.I can also remember seeing Wiggy ride in the 1982 british Final as a NL rider,acquitted himself well and went on and have a great career still missed.!.

It was only div 2 " Norbold" so it had to be easy, Na only joking a great rider how great it is in sport to still have a chance for the underdog.I wish it still applied now, at one time every rider could have his dream and enter the WC those days have gone.

 

Why was it a great achievement?

 

That suggests it was something out of the ordinary, a lesser rider succeeding against better ones?

 

But that can't be the case because you've been arguing blind that they weren't lesser riders in the National League..

Edited July 14, 2015 by BWitcher

[stratton]

Why was it a great achievement?

 

That suggests it was something out of the ordinary, a lesser rider succeeding against better ones?

 

But that can't be the case because you've been arguing blind that they weren't lesser riders in the National League..

 

A championship meeting it was like Rochdale beating Man Utd , the underdog come through have a look at the line up Tyler supplied.Oops why bother you would not know who half the riders were also i never EVER said that the NL was not inferior to the BL but i do know it was not a Mediocre league full of OAPs Edited July 14, 2015 by sidney

[waiheke1]

So yeates was the equivalent of Rochdale. Morton and Collins manutd.

Would you say rochdale are a mega good side? Or average? Mediocre?

[BWitcher]

A championship meeting it was like Rochdale beating Man Utd , the underdog come through have a look at the line up Tyler supplied.Oops why bother you would not know who half the riders were.

 

Like Rochdale you say?

 

So one of the best riders in the National League was the equivalent of Rochdale?

 

Thanks for finally accepting I was right all along.

[stratton]

So yeates was the equivalent of Rochdale. Morton and Collins manutd.

Would you say rochdale are a mega good side? Or average? Mediocre?

I would say tyler put you right on Maxfield Owen ( ect averages also Yeates up to now has achieved more than the riders you named by reaching the overseas final.Did you see that BRiTiSH FINAL line up supplied by Tyler even you have to acknowledge it was a very good line up.Give Witcher a text and maybe you could tell him about some of the riders because he is struggling 1990 onwards is his game.

Like Rochdale you say?

 

So one of the best riders in the National League was the equivalent of Rochdale?

 

Thanks for finally accepting I was right all along.

Right about what? you ent got a scoobies clue about the subject you are ranting about.

[waiheke1]

Remember the old inter leaguecup? 1975 Swindon refused to race Boston as they said it would be insulting to their fans to race 2nd division opposition!

[stratton]

Remember the old inter leaguecup? 1975 Swindon refused to race Boston as they said it would be insulting to their fans to race 2nd division opposition!

I remember going to Edinburgh and seeing Swindon just win that was not a cakewalk.