Darcy Ward

[SCB]

Sorry but why are all of a sudden quoting 70's/early 80's The National league went right up to 1990. Then in 91 it reverted back to British league division 2.

Because the discussion started about how strong the NL was when Mike Lee ride in it. Did he ride NL in 1990? Or back in the 1970s?

The reason why so many PL riders ride in the EL, as we both know is a money saving excise. unfortunately speedway in Britain has fallen to such a low standard that it has to use PL riders to fill the numbers not because how good these riders are.

 

Yes you are quite correct in that imo the PL from what I have seen on TV Is far more exciting to watch. It's just a shame that PL riders riding in the EL are not there because they are too good for the PL but, a necessity to prop up the EL.

If the EL was a 16 team league like the BL was at one point, the likes of Richard Lawson would have 8 point averages and people would remember him as a great rider. But in a smaller league, he can only got 6.5 so won't be remembered the same way

[BWitcher]

Because the discussion started about how strong the NL was when Mike Lee ride in it. Did he ride NL in 1990? Or back in the 1970s?

If the EL was a 16 team league like the BL was at one point, the likes of Richard Lawson would have 8 point averages and people would remember him as a great rider. But in a smaller league, he can only got 6.5 so won't be remembered the same way

 

Especially with bonus pts thrown in too.

[tyler42]

Because the discussion started about how strong the NL was when Mike Lee ride in it. Did he ride NL in 1990? Or back in the 1970s?

If the EL was a 16 team league like the BL was at one point, the likes of Richard Lawson would have 8 point averages and people would remember him as a great rider. But in a smaller league, he can only got 6.5 so won't be remembered the same way

My first post on this Thread

 

I have to disagree. Yes there were journeyman but, you also had up and coming young riders, English as well as Australians who went on to being world class and in some cases World Champions. i.e Havlock, Loram. The likes of Adams, Boyce, Wiltshire, Dugard. I could go on and on and all from the same era. All these riders started out in the National League. Can you name as many who or will go on to be World Class Today?. When a PL rider can score as many points in the Elite League as he can in the PL does that make him a better rider or is it that the Elite league has never been so weak?

A top 2nd division rider back in the day would be lucky if he could score a couple of points! In the 1st division and that was at reserve. Then again he would be up against the likes Collins, Penhall, Lee, Moran Bros etc etc!.

A little bit harder Imo Than the likes of Lingrern, Harris, King, AJ and a whole host of DU PL.

 

Fair enough I went from Adams, Boyce, Dugard etc to Collins, Lee Penhall etc But, It was not about when Mike Lee rode in the league. It was about the League in General and my post constantly quoted the late 80's when the riders I mentioned above rode.

 

so what you saying is If, the EL was like the BL Richard Lawson would have an 8 point average. Ok lets look at some of riders from BL 89 Chris Morton 6.75 Paul Thorpe 7.79 Rick Miller 6.93 Simon Wigg 7.69 Ronny Correy 7.86

 

None of these riders attained an average of 8 so Richard Lawson must be a better rider than them. Really!!

[OveFundinFan]

I'm giving up at looking at this thread - its not a "Darcy Ward" thread any more and I aint interested in the argument going on at the moment.

The thread has been well and truly hijacked and if there are any mods on here they have allowed it.

[SteveLyric2]

So Ward was set to join Lakeside originally

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/13409185.Speedway__Promoter_Ford_favoured_Lakeside_switch_for_Darcy/?ref=twtrec

I did tell you that at the time!!

[Blazeaway]

I'm giving up at looking at this thread - its not a "Darcy Ward" thread any more and I aint interested in the argument going on at the moment.

The thread has been well and truly hijacked and if there are any mods on here they have allowed it.

 

Bye John.

[Terry]

A massive WEAKNESS on your part,why couldn't you have just said it is about opinions and leave it at that your CERTAINTY on thing's is worrying.

 

When BWitcher wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

[norbold]

Who is this Darcy Ward?

 

Is he good? What league does he ride in?

I think he used to ride in the old National League. He was a bit mediocre I think they used to say.

[Blazeaway]

I think he used to ride in the old National League. He was a bit mediocre I think they used to say.

 

Average at best.

[E I Addio]

I did tell you that at the time!!

Yes you did and some of us knew you were right at the time As ever, the keyboard warriors are not interested in the facts.

Was the old NL MEDIOCRE in your opinion? forget the dictionary and the twaddle was it a EASY bread/butter league to ride in Yes or No.

If you are going to forget the dictionary, then words mean whatever you want them to mean and we won't get anywhere..

 

In answer to your specific question the answer is no it was not an easy bread and butter league. Speedwáy is a tough sport and it's never easy in any sport when you are competing against competitors of similar ability.. It's just as difficult for say Rohan Tungste to win a race in the PL as it is for tai Woffinden to win a race in a GP , it's just that the PL has riders of less ability than the GP's but that doesn't mean it's easier for those competing at that level.. thsts no criticism of the riders riding at Pl level though. They ride to the best of their ability, which is obviously a lower standard than. GPs. Same with thme old NL.

Edited July 13, 2015 by E I Addio

[BWitcher]

Yes you did and some of us knew you were right at the time As ever, the keyboard warriors are not interested in the facts.

If you are going to forget the dictionary, then words mean whatever you want them to mean and we won't get anywhere..

 

In answer to your specific question the answer is no it was not an easy bread and butter league. Speedwáy is a tough sport and it's never easy in any sport when you are competing against competitors of similar ability.. It's just as difficult for say Rohan Tungste to win a race in the PL as it is for tai Woffinden to win a race in a GP , it's just that the PL has riders of less ability than the GP's but that doesn't mean it's easier for those competing at that level.. thsts no criticism of the riders riding at Pl level though. They ride to the best of their ability, which is obviously a lower standard than. GPs. Same with thme old NL.

 

Correct E I.

 

I don't think anybody has argued that it wasn't.

 

No league is easy when its full of competitors of an equal level as you say...

 

In this case it was full of average journeymen level riders.... those that progressed beyond that moved upwards, to ensure that a challenge remained. Pretty much what has been said all along.

 

Sidders will be along shortly to dispute it though and claim that your post proves me wrong!

[SCB]

If the EL was a 16 team league like the BL was at one point, the likes of Richard Lawson would have 8 point averages and people would remember him as a great rider. But in a smaller league, he can only got 6.5 so won't be remembered the same way

 

so what you saying is If, the EL was like the BL Richard Lawson would have an 8 point average. Ok lets look at some of riders from BL 89 Chris Morton 6.75 Paul Thorpe 7.79 Rick Miller 6.93 Simon Wigg 7.69 Ronny Correy 7.86

 

None of these riders attained an average of 8 so Richard Lawson must be a better rider than them. Really!!

So that would be the 9 team BL of 1989? So one more team than now. Try again in a season when there were 16 teams.

 

Try comparing him to some rider from 1984.

Edited July 13, 2015 by SCB

[waiheke1]

Andy Campbell averaged around 7.5 in 1984. The following season he moved to belle vue ostensibly to be a heat leader, the league shrank to 11 teams and he dropped to being a 5 point rider despite time at reserve. Lawson is better than Campbell imho. Maybe similar to mark Courtney who also averaged around 7.5 in 1984.

But of course if you expanded current bl to 16 teams it would depend who you filled it with. If it was with riders of same standard as the current teams, Lawson would remain a 6.5 rider. If filled it with pl riders he would potentially become an 8 pt rider.

Edited July 13, 2015 by waihekeaces1

[tyler42]

 

So that would be the 9 team BL of 1989? So one more team than now. Try again in a season when there were 16 teams.

 

Try comparing him to some rider from 1984.

I would say some decent riders here. Take your pick.

 

1984 averages Simon Cross 7.41 1984, Alan Graham 7.98, Steve Bastable 6.89 , Gary Guglielmi 7.79 Rick Miller KelvinTatum 7.18

[waiheke1]

That list is not as impressive as it looks though as that was cross's first full season, Tatum's second ditto Miller.

Alan Grahame was still class and well ahead of where Lawson is.

Bastable was no longer the rider he was in 81/82. Apart from Grahame, Lawson wouldn't be out of place in that company imho.

[Humphrey Appleby]

In this case it was full of average journeymen level riders.... those that progressed beyond that moved upwards, to ensure that a challenge remained. Pretty much what has been said all along.

From memory, the NL in the period 1986 to 1990 had some good riders. Up-and-coming riders like Mark Loram, Chris Louis, Todd Wiltshire, Paul Thorp, Andrew Silver, Martin Dugard and Troy Butler who did pretty well when they moved in the BL, and some older riders who'd dropped down from the BL but who were probably still heat leader status (Preben Eriksen, Les Collins and Andy Grahame come to mind). NL 'regulars' such as Steve Schofield, Mick Poole, Kenny McKinna and to a lesser extent Andy Galvin were also a fairly decent standard when they rode in BL, and of course you also had the likes of Steve Lawson and Peter Carr who could probably have held down a BL place.

 

The BL contracted quite substantially in 1986 and again 1989, so there were a fair few decent riders squeezed downwards to the NL. They might be considered 'average journeymen' in the sense they weren't first choice picks for BL teams and were the sort of riders that often moved around because of the points limit, but the nature of speedway is that very few riders spend most or all of their careers with one team.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Humphrey Appleby

[tyler42]

That list is not as impressive as it looks though as that was cross's first full season, Tatum's second ditto Miller.

Alan Grahame was still class and well ahead of where Lawson is.

Bastable was no longer the rider he was in 81/82. Apart from Grahame, Lawson wouldn't be out of place in that company imho.

I agree but, would you not agree that riders like the one's I listed were riding in a much higher standard of racing in BL then compared to the EL what Lawson ride's in today?

 

If so, does that then not make the likes of Cross and Tatum and Miller even more Impressive.

Edited July 14, 2015 by tyler42

[Grachan]

If we had a 16 team EL and the same riders that are riding here now, then, by default, every rider in the current EL would immediately be a heatleader.

 

Number ones would be the current top twos.

 

Second heatleaders become the current 3s and 4s

 

Third heatleaders become the current numbers 5s plus 8 from the PL.

 

Put that lot through the old race format and you get 10 point riders aplenty.

[waiheke1]

I agree but, would you not agree that riders like the one's I listed were riding in a much higher standard of racing in BL then compared to the EL what Lawson ride's in today?

 

If so, does that then not make the likes of Cross and Tatum and Miller even more Impressive.

 

Was the 84 BL league stronger than the current EL – yes.

Were the teams in it stronger than the current EL – probably, but not by as much as people think.

Certainly the top 3 teams (Belle Vue, Cradley, Ipswich) were stronger than any of the current EL teams. But the bottom teams (Exter, Newcastle, Halifax) were weaker than any current EL side.

In a 16 team league, with most of the world’s top riders (exceptions Kelly Moran, Egon Muller, and Kenny Carter/Dennis Sigalos who missed basically the whole season with injury), if the teams were equal strength each team would have:

A number one ranked in the top 20 in the world, two more heat-leaders ranked in the top 50, two second strings ranked in the top 100 (taking into account that in this range you had some American and European riders not racing in Britain, plus some top NL riders who would fall into thuis range), and then two reserves of varying strengths.

 

Compare to the current EL:

I would say 5 teams materially fit that criteria:

Belle Vue, Swindon, Poole definitely meet that criteria (would add that Poole have two top 20 riders).

Coventry arguably don’t have a top 20 rider (possibly two in the top 30 though), while Stuart Robson is probably not top 100 (Joonas/King as stronger 2^nd string compensate being close to top 50), and also have a reserve pairing which is probably as strong as any from 84 (except perhaps Aces pair of P Carr and McKinna)

Kings Lynn meet all criteria, except that Porsing is probably not top 100 (counteracting that Lambert must be pushing top 50)

 

Of the other sides:

I would say that Lakeside and Leicse terwould need to upgrade one of their second strings to a heat leader.

Wolves would arguably need a number one (Tai or Pawlicki jnr) to replace on their second strings.

 

So the current Elite league is probably three strong riders short of having sides which are as good (on average) of those from 84.

If you exclude the top 3 sides from 84, who arguably had 7 of the world’s top 20, and 12 of the world’s top 50, riders between them , then I would say the current EL teams are as strong (on average) as those from the 84 BL.

Lawson has ridden most of this season as a heat leader, which means much harder races than a top 5 rider in 84 - so I would reiterate that he is probably comparable to thsoe you mentioned, except for Alan grahame whose form in other competitions (e.g. qualifying for World Final) would mark him out as clearly superior.

[BWitcher]

From memory, the NL in the period 1986 to 1990 had some good riders. Up-and-coming riders like Mark Loram, Chris Louis, Todd Wiltshire, Paul Thorp, Andrew Silver, Martin Dugard and Troy Butler who did pretty well when they moved in the BL, and some older riders who'd dropped down from the BL but who were probably still heat leader status (Preben Eriksen, Les Collins and Andy Grahame come to mind). NL 'regulars' such as Steve Schofield, Mick Poole, Kenny McKinna and to a lesser extent Andy Galvin were also a fairly decent standard when they rode in BL, and of course you also had the likes of Steve Lawson and Peter Carr who could probably have held down a BL place.

 

The BL contracted quite substantially in 1986 and again 1989, so there were a fair few decent riders squeezed downwards to the NL. They might be considered 'average journeymen' in the sense they weren't first choice picks for BL teams and were the sort of riders that often moved around because of the points limit, but the nature of speedway is that very few riders spend most or all of their careers with one team.

 

Very true Humphrey, but that is the 'strongest' period of the NL.. certainly not the late 70's, early 80's version that was the catalyst for this conversation.

 

In addition, it's also notable that all we keep getting listed are around 8-10 riders over a 4-5 year span. Effectively the top riders in the league at the time.. There's 7 riders in a team, so that leaves a hell of a lot of riders, at least 100 of them that are of an increasingly lower standard as you move down the team.