Darcy Ward

[stratton]

I think the PL became a lot stronger in the late 80s, after the top flight started to struggle and the NL began to sign foreign riders.Instead of just a league for those on the way up or the way down it became a proper, competitive league - just at a lower level.By 1988 (the year of the Poole footage), the top flight was down to about 12 clubs and teams began dropping down for econmic reasons.I'd say the PL is definitely tougher than the old NL for those very reasons. The old second division and NNL wasn't much different to the National League now.That's why genuinely talented riders like Peter Collins and Michael Lee could come in and straight away be heatleaders in much the same Tai Woffinden could in the third tier recently.One reason there are so many PL riders in the British final now is because of the lack of clubs in the EL plus the doubling up.If we had 18 clubs at top level and no doubling up, then the British Final would be pretty much full of EL riders.It's funny that people call doubling up riders "Premier League" riders all the time, when they are just as much EL as PL.

If the old national league was that poor, why didnt Collins and Lee mop up? and get 10 plus averages? Grachan you are way off the mark the NL now is not even on the same radar as the old NL. Edited July 13, 2015 by sidney

[oldace]

If the old national league was that poor why didnt Collins and Lee mop up? and get 10 plus averages? Grachan you are way off the mark the NL now is not even on the same radar as the old NL.

 

 

I think he is pretty spot on Sidney. Lee and Collins didn't hang around long enough to dominate the NNL, they had bigger ambitions and moved on quickly.

 

Remember how many clubs came into existence between 1968 and 1975. These new track needed new riders. A combination of old hands past their first division best and raw rookies came along to staff these clubs. Guys bought bikes one week and were league racing the next. By 1988 the NL was a whole heap stronger than its 1978 counterpart for the reasons Grachan has highlighted earlier

 

None of that is to decry the old NNL/NL, it did exactly what it was set up to do, develop riding talent for the BL. Prior to the late 80s and the NL promoters deciding they wanted to rival the BL rather than work together it worked pretty well. As more riders got cushy in the NL so the BL relied on cheaper foreign imports starting the path to where we are today

Edited July 13, 2015 by Oldace

[Sotonian]

Why do people think it's so offensive to call someone average or a journeyman? Neither is a bad thing to be.

Exactly. One promoter, I can't remember who, went further and described the 1960's PL as full of 'has-beens and never-weres". That's more derogatory than mediocre but was still largely true nonetheless.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Sotonian

[SCB]

If the old national league was that poor, why didnt Collins and Lee mop up? and get 10 plus averages? Grachan you are way off the mark the NL now is not even on the same radar as the old NL.

So having seen Tai Woffinden lose to Billy Legg and Sam Hurst at Newport in the CL back in about 2007, I can claim that Sam Hurst and Billy Legg are of World Champion level?

Exactly. One promoter, I can't remember who, went further and described the 1960's PL as full of 'has-beens and never-weres". That's more derogatory than mediocre but was still largely true nonetheless.

Reminds me of John Perrin and his "steak and chips" vs "egg and chips" comment circa-2000

[BWitcher]

If the old national league was that poor, why didnt Collins and Lee mop up? and get 10 plus averages? Grachan you are way off the mark the NL now is not even on the same radar as the old NL.

 

Because at that stage, they weren't great riders, just decent ones.

 

As you have been told over and over, the moment they became decent, they moved on.

So having seen Tai Woffinden lose to Billy Legg and Sam Hurst at Newport in the CL back in about 2007, I can claim that Sam Hurst and Billy Legg are of World Champion level?

 

 

I find this offensive, are you trying to mock Billy Legg and Sam Hurst? Do you know them? Have you raced them CBS? haha forget the C, BS, that's your name. shown you up. Owned. Learn!

[sparkafag]

Does that mean that the Premier League in the mid 2000s was super strong, as Bjerre, Kolodziej, Harris, Iversen, Zagar, Batchelor, Zetterstrom, Holder and Woffinden were all racing in the league during a 5 year period then.

 

As for the 1981 NL...I'm not convinced that was anything special compared to recent Premier League seasons.

 

 

It’s always difficult to contextually judge things, but the early to mid-2000s must be up there when it comes to high points of PL Speedway.

 

Admittedly time is always kind to bygone eras given you can point at what riders went on to achieve with hindsight or had achieved before they arrived in the PL but the tangibles suggest it (The PL) was strong then.

 

The majority of sides contained would be, or had been Grand Prix riders. The general trend was that riders on the way up made their way via the PL rather than going straight to EL, and such was the strength of the EL that the riders dropping down generally still had a lot to offer, eg Boyce, early PL Havelock.

 

It is an absurdly difficult thing to gauge though.

Edited July 13, 2015 by sparkafag

[stratton]

I think the PL became a lot stronger in the late 80s, after the top flight started to struggle and the NL began to sign foreign riders.Instead of just a league for those on the way up or the way down it became a proper, competitive league - just at a lower level.By 1988 (the year of the Poole footage), the top flight was down to about 12 clubs and teams began dropping down for econmic reasons.I'd say the PL is definitely tougher than the old NL for those very reasons. The old second division and NNL wasn't much different to the National League now.That's why genuinely talented riders like Peter Collins and Michael Lee could come in and straight away be heatleaders in much the same Tai Woffinden could in the third tier recently.One reason there are so many PL riders in the British final now is because of the lack of clubs in the EL plus the doubling up.If we had 18 clubs at top level and no doubling up, then the British Final would be pretty much full of EL riders.It's funny that people call doubling up riders "Premier League" riders all the time, when they are just as much EL as PL.

If the old national league was that poor why didnt Collins and Lee mop up? and get 10 plus averages? Grachan you are way off the mark the NL now is not even on the same radar as the old NL.

I think he is pretty spot on Sidney. Lee and Collins didn't hang around long enough to dominate the NNL, they had bigger ambitions and moved on quickly.

 

Remember how many clubs came into existence between 1968 and 1975. These new track needed new riders. A combination of old hands past their first division best and raw rookies came along to staff these clubs. Guys bought bikes one week and were league racing the next. By 1988 the NL was a whole heap stronger than its 1978 counterpart for the reasons Grachan has highlighted earlier

 

None of that is to decry the old NNL/NL, it did exactly what it was set up to do, develop riding talent for the BL. Prior to the late 80s and the NL promoters deciding they wanted to rival the BL rather than work together it worked pretty well. As more riders got cushy in the NL so the BL relied on cheaper foreign imports starting the path to where we are today

Oldace surely you can't even mention the NL as it is now on the same hymn sheet as the old NL? as much as i still like the NL and hopefully a few of a young uns will come through to be at least minimum PL level.

[Grachan]

If the old national league was that poor why didnt Collins and Lee mop up? and get 10 plus averages?

Because they were 16.

 

(Lee was above 9, though, even at that age, and Peter Collins' 1971 Rochdale average was 9.80)

 

http://wwosbackup.proboards.com/thread/678

Edited July 13, 2015 by grachan

[stratton]

Nobody has questioned the quality of the racing, like now there were good and bad meetings.

 

Although, of course, the quality of the racing has little bearing on crowd figures.

S

Because they were 16.(Lee was above 9, though, even at that age, and Peter Collins' 1971 Rochdale average was 9.80)http://wwosbackup.proboards.com/thread/678

No not because of there age because the league was damn hard, if anything Lee did better in the old BL i think he averaged 7.43.As an example if you were a Eastbourne rider and had the challenge of riding at say the big Ellesmere Port that at NL level the standard was a bloody hard sometimes people forget that.Maybe i misunderstood? are you seriously saying there is not that much difference between the NL now and the old NL.? Edited July 13, 2015 by sidney

[Grachan]

SNo not because of there age because the league was damn hard, if anything Lee did better in the old BL i think he averaged 7.43.As an example if you were a Eastbourne rider and had the challenge of riding at say the big Ellesmere Port that at NL. Standard was a bloody hard meeting people forget that.Maybe i misunderstood? are you seriously saying there is not that much difference between the NL now and the old NL.?

Where do you think riders of the standard of the current NL riders rode in those days? They rode in the NL.

 

There were also some more regular journeymen riders too, at the top end of the sides. I'd say it was somewhere between the standard of the current PL and the current NL.

 

But certainly riders of the standard of the current NL would have been in the NNL/NL, yes.

 

It would have been of the standard of current NL and current PL full timers that don't double up. Plus a couple of big prospects - say Robert Lambert standard if they got lucky (eg like they did with Collins and Lee).

 

There were more decent British prospects around there, but it was just a feeder league to them.

Edited July 13, 2015 by grachan

[BWitcher]

SNo not because of there age because the league was damn hard, if anything Lee did better in the old BL i think he averaged 7.43.As an example if you were a Eastbourne rider and had the challenge of riding at say the big Ellesmere Port that at NL level the standard was a bloody hard sometimes people forget that.Maybe i misunderstood? are you seriously saying there is not that much difference between the NL now and the old NL.?

 

No it wasn't damn hard. Or they would have stayed in it.

 

They didn't stay in it because they had nothing to learn from it, it was a decent learning league, but if you were a rider of reasonable ability, you moved up a league to test yourself at a higher level.. A higher level means a harder level.

 

Ás Oldace has pointed out, there are examples of people buying a bike, riding for the first time and being in a team within a couple of weeks! Would that happen now? Absolutely no chance!

[SCB]

Ás Oldace has pointed out, there are examples of people buying a bike, riding for the first time and being in a team within a couple of weeks! Would that happen now? Absolutely no chance!

You don't even get that with the NL these days, most of them have come from the MDL. Georgie Woods at Eastbourne is the only exception I can think of. Who was the last rider to go straight into he PL without the CL/NL? Danny Bird in 1998. Richie Hawkins only had about 3 meetings in the CL in 2000 before signing for Swindon in 2001 too. 15 years ago!!

[stratton]

Where do you think riders of the standard of the current NL riders rode in those days? They rode in the NL.There were also some more regular journeymen riders too, at the top end of the sides. I'd say it was somewhere between the standard of the current PL and the current NL.But certainly riders of the standard of the current NL would have been in the NNL/NL, yes.It would have been of the standard of current NL and current PL full timers that don't double up. Plus a couple of big prospects - say Robert Lambert standard if they got lucky (eg like they did with Collins and Lee).There were more decent British prospects around there, but it was just a feeder league to them.

You did not answer my question do you compare the NL now on the same footing as the old NL? maybe i misunderstood but i think you said it.

[BWitcher]

It's interesting.. over the course of the debate its gone from being a 'mega tough league full of world stars' to 'its better than the current PL' and now its down to whether its better than the current NL!

 

Meanwhile the journeymen have now been clarified as the top riders in the league, the lower end way well below average riders.

[Grachan]

You did not answer my question do you compare the NL now on the same footing as the old NL? maybe i misunderstood but i think you said it.

I did answer it.

 

Riders of NL standard today would have been NL then, too.

 

Plus riders slightly above them in standard too.

 

I said, somewhere between the current NL and the current PL in standard.

 

The top PL riders of today would have been riding in the top league.

 

It's not a yes/no answer because I feel it needs more than that.

 

But, yes, todays NL riders would have been in the old NL too.

Edited July 13, 2015 by grachan

[tyler42]

Where do you think riders of the standard of the current NL riders rode in those days? They rode in the NL.

 

There were also some more regular journeymen riders too, at the top end of the sides. I'd say it was somewhere between the standard of the current PL and the current NL.

 

But certainly riders of the standard of the current NL would have been in the NNL/NL, yes.

 

It would have been of the standard of current NL and current PL full timers that don't double up. Plus a couple of big prospects - say Robert Lambert standard if they got lucky (eg like they did with Collins and Lee).

 

There were more decent British prospects around there, but it was just a feeder league to them.

Sorry to disappoint you but, no they did not ride in the NL. They rode in the second half's and junior leagues. Surely you must remember the Swindon sprockets of the early 80's. Steve Bishop, Dave Smart to name a couple who, went on to be good riders, Maybe in your opinion, they might have been just good national league riders in today NL?

[stratton]

No it wasn't damn hard. Or they would have stayed in it.

 

They didn't stay in it because they had nothing to learn from it, it was a decent learning league, but if you were a rider of reasonable ability, you moved up a league to test yourself at a higher level.. A higher level means a harder level.

 

Ás Oldace has pointed out, there are examples of people buying a bike, riding for the first time and being in a team within a couple of weeks! Would that happen now? Absolutely no chance!

This has been an interesting subject and everybody apart from you i take seriously and have made great points.Yourself well you said the league was full of MEDIOCRE riders and it was full of JOURNEYMAN and you have never wavered from that statement so that is your belief.Others have mentioned the PL and have great points to say it is a better level i understand that.You for me don't UNDERSTAND you never watched the old NL you don't know the history of the league and the standard you see it as just Div 2.And you don't grasp the fact the the likes of Lee,Collins,Havelock,Loram learned alot by riding in that tough environment rather than just turning up getting max after max everyweek which was never going to happen.

[BWitcher]

Sorry to disappoint you but, no they did not ride in the NL. They rode in the second half's and junior leagues. Surely you must remember the Swindon sprockets of the early 80's. Steve Bishop, Dave Smart to name a couple who, went on to be good riders, Maybe in your opinion, they might have been just good national league riders in today NL?

 

That's MDL level you're talking about now.

This has been an interesting subject and everybody apart from you i take seriously and have made great points.Yourself well you said the league was full of MEDIOCRE riders and it was full of JOURNEYMAN and you have never wavered from that statement so that is your belief.Others have mentioned the PL and have great points to say it is a better level i understand that.You for me don't UNDERSTAND you never watched the old NL you don't know the history of the league and the standard you see it as just Div 2.And you don't grasp the fact the the likes of Lee,Collins,Havelock,Loram learned alot by riding in that tough environment rather than just turning up getting max after max everyweek which was never going to happen.

 

Sidney, give it a rest.

 

Others are very clearly saying the league was WORSE than I said it was.

 

I said it was full of journeymen.

 

Grachan says only the top riders were journeymen, the rest were of a lower standard.

 

I haven't wavered from my original statement that the current PL is stronger than the NL of the late 70's because its correct. So why on earth would I change?

 

Others have since joined in and explained why, exactly as I did earlier on.

 

Put aside your personal vendetta and move on.

Edited July 13, 2015 by BWitcher

[tyler42]

 

It was a league full of journeyman, young riders who as soon as they got good, for the most part moved up a league and older riders, no longer as good as they were on their way down.

 

That is the reality no matter how much you cry and whinge about it.

 

Therefore, in the context of being a professional speedway rider it wasn't 'mega tough'.

 

That part is not even a debate.

 

What can be debated is whether the current PL is stronger or not.

Sorry, Cry and Whinge. What are you on about. I could say the same about you because, Let's face it you only seem to answer half my questions! Funny enough the one's what suit your side of the argument.

 

As for a debate you wouldn't know one if it came up and smacked you round the head.

[stratton]

That's MDL level you're talking about now.

 

Sidney, give it a rest.

 

Others are very clearly saying the league was WORSE than I said it was.

 

I said it was full of journeymen.

 

Grachan says only the top riders were journeymen, the rest were of a lower standard.

 

Give up your personal vendetta and actually read what is being posted!

Not personal it is FACT you said the league was full of MEDIOCRE riders and JOURNEYMAN and because it was Div 2 it was second rate.The rest of the points are very valid indeed,but your statement is way off the mark and you cannot go back on it simple really.