Darcy Ward

[stratton]

The number of double uppers show how the PL is stronger than the old NL.

In the NL days those riders would not be in the lower league. They would have moved on.

Cannot agree with that Grachan,also the likes of Owen, Lawson (ect) they were in there safety zone bloody good riders earned decent money scoring points of course to ride full time in the BL you had to be pretty decent.The point i was replying to was Witcher saying that the NL was easy, and full of JOURNEYMAN tyler has proved him wrong on that score.I certainly am not saying the PL is not better,but i do agree that as a example Martin Yeates would find this EL alot easier than the BL he was involved in.

Wild card for next year. Otherwise through the qualifiers next year for season 2017. Long way off but. Unless you know another way.

He will get a wildcard for Melbourne and surely he will get a pick for next years series? saying that KIldemand must deserve one also.

[Ghostwalker]

What is the most likely route for Darcy back into the GPs? Assuming he wants to return

If he wants back into the SGP he should have to qualify, wildcards should not be used on riders who missed out

because they were suspended.

[stratton]

If he wants back into the SGP he should have to qualify, wildcards should not be used on riders who missed out

because they were suspended.

At the moment we all know the GP series has not got the best riders riding for whatever reason.Should Emil have to qualify to ? i think not i would love a way of getting Ward,Emil,Greg Laguta in the series without them this series has not got the best riders in the world in it.

[BWitcher]

Cannot agree with that Grachan,also the likes of Owen, Lawson (ect) they were in there safety zone bloody good riders earned decent money scoring points of course to ride full time in the BL you had to be pretty decent.The point i was replying to was Witcher saying that the NL was easy, and full of JOURNEYMAN tyler has proved him wrong on that score.I certainly am not saying the PL is not better,but i do agree that as a example Martin Yeates would find this EL alot easier than the BL he was involved in.

He will get a wildcard for Melbourne and surely he will get a pick for next years series? saying that KIldemand must deserve one also.

 

No you haven't.

 

Only in your warped perception.

 

You've managed to name around 15 riders over a 25 year period to prove how 'strong' the league was. Marvelous!

 

Some of the riders you named rode 2 seasons or less in the league.

 

So basically you've come up with less than 1 rider per team. There's 7 riders in a team!

 

The best you have come up with is riders on the up who didn't stick around, those on the way down nowhere near their best and riders who couldn't cut the mustard in the top flight! These are the selected riders over a 25 year period!!

 

Not going to say much for the remaining 6 riders in each team.

 

 

I would argue and say,they weren't too good for that league. The 1st division was a lot stronger then. Three world class heat leaders solid second strings, not double uppers and 2 reserves not FTR just to save money. so moving up meant you had to be pretty good.

 

 

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

 

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

[Gavan]

Lets look at the top premier league riders today and the top national league boys in the late 80;s early 90's then shall we.

 

Cook, Stead, King, Kennett, Masters are probably the best riders in the league.

Back in the late 80's riders of their calibre would have struggled to make the British Final.

 

You had Galvin, Loram , Louis, Schofield, Boyce, Adams, Wiltshire, Crump, Butler, Thorp.

 

All these riders bar Galvin and Schoey made the World Final.

 

Im puzzled how anyone in their right mind thinks the premier league is stronger now. my team are in it and yes the racing is good but its not a great standard.

 

Take the league from 1981 and its stronger than now.

Take the league from 1989 its still stronger.

[Dawkins20]

If he wants back into the SGP he should have to qualify, wildcards should not be used on riders who missed out

because they were suspended.

 

He is the golden boy of the gp's main sponsor only thing that can prevent him getting a wild card for next season is him doing some stupid thing again. Which is possible he is versatile in that matter.

[tyler42]

 

No you haven't.

 

Only in your warped perception.

 

You've managed to name around 15 riders over a 25 year period to prove how 'strong' the league was. Marvelous!

 

Some of the riders you named rode 2 seasons or less in the league.

 

So basically you've come up with less than 1 rider per team. There's 7 riders in a team!

 

The best you have come up with is riders on the up who didn't stick around, those on the way down nowhere near their best and riders who couldn't cut the mustard in the top flight! These are the selected riders over a 25 year period!!

 

Not going to say much for the remaining 6 riders in each team.

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

 

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

So would you say it's a utter myth the the current 1st division is the weakest it has been for 50 years. The current EL boasts 6 world class riders, soon to be 7. Then you have DU riders and as for the reserves. even the poor ones back then would match the money saving farce FTR of today. it's the equivalent of putting second half riders in your team back in the day. Only back then they would not be beating riders in the main body of the team!.

[stratton]

The British league did

 

 

No you haven't.

 

Only in your warped perception.

 

You've managed to name around 15 riders over a 25 year period to prove how 'strong' the league was. Marvelous!

 

Some of the riders you named rode 2 seasons or less in the league.

 

So basically you've come up with less than 1 rider per team. There's 7 riders in a team!

 

The best you have come up with is riders on the up who didn't stick around, those on the way down nowhere near their best and riders who couldn't cut the mustard in the top flight! These are the selected riders over a 25 year period!!

 

Not going to say much for the remaining 6 riders in each team.

 

Another utter myth that has been dismantled many times.

 

Teams didn't have 'three world class heat leaders'. Some teams did on occasion.. the majority didn't. Those that did very often had very poor reserves.

The British league did. Mauger,Collins,Sjosten,)Louis,Sanders,Davey. )Betts,Lee, Turner.) Kennett, Moran Woods.) Gundersen,Penhall, Grahame, Collins. ) Wilson Jessup Boulger.) Mauger Autrey,Titman) Ashby Kilby Andersson) Shirra Andersson Jonsson ) Just a few there over different years the BL was very good up to about 1986 in my opinion.There were weak teams of course but most of those were very good at home and had big home advantages.A thing that you FORGET is most sides then had a proper number 1 how many are there in the EL now?i have to say if you cant see that the level then was a much higher level then maybe i need glasses. Edited July 11, 2015 by sidney

[HenryW]

Lets look at the top premier league riders today and the top national league boys in the late 80;s early 90's then shall we.

 

Cook, Stead, King, Kennett, Masters are probably the best riders in the league.

Back in the late 80's riders of their calibre would have struggled to make the British Final.

 

You had Galvin, Loram , Louis, Schofield, Boyce, Adams, Wiltshire, Crump, Butler, Thorp.

 

All these riders bar Galvin and Schoey made the World Final.

 

Im puzzled how anyone in their right mind thinks the premier league is stronger now. my team are in it and yes the racing is good but its not a great standard.

 

Take the league from 1981 and its stronger than now.

Take the league from 1989 its still stronger.

You have picked the "top premier league" riders from this year, carefully leaving out the likes of Brady Kurtz, Robert Lambert and Nick Morris who, barring any disasters for them, are all likely to go on to have international careers.

 

At the same time you select a bunch of riders from across 5 seasons in the late 80s and early 90s, most of whom made it to a World Final.

 

I will grant you that 1989 was a very good year for the old National League with a good few of the riders you listed all racing that year and racing at a high level, but adding in Butler, Crump and Thorp stretches the period you are covering quite considerably.

 

Does that mean that the Premier League in the mid 2000s was super strong, as Bjerre, Kolodziej, Harris, Iversen, Zagar, Batchelor, Zetterstrom, Holder and Woffinden were all racing in the league during a 5 year period then.

 

As for the 1981 NL...I'm not convinced that was anything special compared to recent Premier League seasons.

[stratton]

Once again, thanks for proving my point for me.

The national league was never super tough, riders of ability would clean up and very quickly move on, riders on the wane who could no longer cut it at the top could extend their career by years and journeymen riders could forge a decent career.

You're expandind your time frame ever more and more in an attempt to prove something. Even bringing riders who raced for one season in the league into your argument.

As said, there are many names who had short spells in the league on the way up, some who had longer spells on the way down.. But the overwhelming majority of the league was mediocrity and below. That's why its z lower league!

Believe me it was was far from MEDIOCRE and i take people's opinion who i respect who watched regular NL racing alot more seriously than your poorly thought out belief it is so odvious you did not see NL racing.I would love to here what Tsunami had to think about those really good Newcastle sides over the years were they full of mediocrity!! in the old NL.

 

Edited July 11, 2015 by sidney

[BWitcher]

Believe me it was was far from MEDIOCRE and i take people's opinion who i respect who watched regular NL racing alot more seriously than your poorly thought out belief it is so odvious you did not see NL racing.I would love to here what Tsunami had to think about those really good Newcastle sides over the years were they full of mediocrity!! in the old NL.

 

Of course it was mediocre, it was the second division.

 

That doesn't mean the racing was bad, or it wasn't a good division to watch.

 

You're just plucking names out over a large time period, as HenryW above and others are pointing out.

 

Read HenryW's post. It explains it.

Edited July 11, 2015 by BWitcher

[SCB]

Does that mean that the Premier League in the mid 2000s was super strong, as Bjerre, Kolodziej, Harris, Iversen, Zagar, Batchelor, Zetterstrom, Holder and Woffinden were all racing in the league during a 5 year period then.

 

Plus John Jorgensen and Jan Staechmann - GP riders and World Finalists. Probably others too.

 

And Stonehewer - GP rider.

 

Doyle and Boyce too

Edited July 11, 2015 by SCB

[stratton]

Of course it was mediocre, it was the second division.

 

That doesn't mean the racing was bad, or it wasn't a good division to watch.

 

You're just plucking names out over a large time period, as HenryW above and others are pointing out.

 

Read HenryW's post. It explains it.

You don't know what you are talking about end of,not that you ever see any of the racing.The racing was not bad and it certainly was not MEDIOCRE it was good anough for riders to learn there craft and progress. ie) Jessup,.Collins,Lee,Carter, Crump,x2 (ect) not bad eh or were they all mediocre? This is your worst arguement ever debate well you never debate do i think the old NL was it MEDIOCRE no i don't but it is my opinion only i don't think that is a silly statement.

You have picked the "top premier league" riders from this year, carefully leaving out the likes of Brady Kurtz, Robert Lambert and Nick Morris who, barring any disasters for them, are all likely to go on to have international careers.At the same time you select a bunch of riders from across 5 seasons in the late 80s and early 90s, most of whom made it to a World Final.I will grant you that 1989 was a very good year for the old National League with a good few of the riders you listed all racing that year and racing at a high level, but adding in Butler, Crump and Thorp stretches the period you are covering quite considerably.Does that mean that the Premier League in the mid 2000s was super strong, as Bjerre, Kolodziej, Harris, Iversen, Zagar, Batchelor, Zetterstrom, Holder and Woffinden were all racing in the league during a 5 year period then.As for the 1981 NL...I'm not convinced that was anything special compared to recent Premier League seasons.

Good post Henry and you make a valid point you could well be right but the difference between you and Witcher is that you have never said the NL was full of Journeyman and was mediocre at best. Edited July 11, 2015 by sidney

[BWitcher]

You don't know what you are talking about end of,not that you ever see any of the racing.The racing was not bad and it certainly was not MEDIOCRE it was good anough for riders to learn there craft and progress. ie) Jessup,.Collins,Lee,Carter, Crump,x2 (ect) not bad eh or were they all mediocre? This is your worst arguement ever debate well you never debate do i think the old NL was it MEDIOCRE no i don't but it is my opinion only i don't think that is a silly statement.

Good post Henry and you make a valid point you could well be right but the difference between you and Witcher is that you have never said the NL was full of Journeyman and was mediocre at best.

 

Nobody is discussing the racing Sidney, so once again, no idea what you are wittering on about.

 

The quality of racing has nothing to do with the standard of rider. You can see some great racing in the junior racing, but the standard is poor.

 

The overall standard of rider in the National League was mediocre... that is INARGUABLE. It was the 2nd division.

 

You can pick out 20 odd riders over a 10 year period who were above mediocre standard.. but that leaves you with hundreds who weren't.. and many of those at the bottom end of teams who were less than mediocre standard... just as it is now!

[stratton]

Nobody is discussing the racing Sidney, so once again, no idea what you are wittering on about.

 

The quality of racing has nothing to do with the standard of rider. You can see some great racing in the junior racing, but the standard is poor.

 

The overall standard of rider in the National League was mediocre... that is INARGUABLE. It was the 2nd division.

 

You can pick out 20 odd riders over a 10 year period who were above mediocre standard.. but that leaves you with hundreds who weren't.. and many of those at the bottom end of teams who were less than mediocre standard... just as it is now!

Nonsense, on this subject myself, Gavan, Tyler have named quite a few riders already that have graced the NL and we can name alot more from say 1969 up until the 90s.Also we can name alot of bread/ butter riders who went on to be decent BL riders so i am not just talking about the Collins of this world .You have made a silly statement tyler exposed you,you said it was full of JOURNEYMAN and it was MEDIOCRE that is wrong do you still stick to that comedy statement.?

[BWitcher]

Nonsense, on this subject myself, Gavan, Tyler have named quite a few riders already that have graced the NL and we can name alot more from say 1969 up until the 90s.Also we can name alot of bread/ butter riders who went on to be decent BL riders so i am not just talking about the Collins of this world .You have made a silly statement tyler exposed you,you said it was full of JOURNEYMAN and it was MEDIOCRE that is wrong do you still stick to that comedy statement.?

 

Collins rode 1 year in the National League and averaged 8. So you can scratch him off your list of being a great National League rider for starters.

 

Again you bring up.. 'went on to be'. What they went on to be is irrelevant. What is relevant is their abilities at the time they rode in the league.

 

It's very very easy to name a bunch of no 1's over an ever expanding period.

 

Go ahead and name me the same amount of second strings and reserves who weren't mediocre or journeymen. Should be easy for you, there's 4 times as many of them!

Edited July 11, 2015 by BWitcher

[tyler42]

 

Collins rode 1 year in the National League and averaged 8. So you can scratch him off your list of being a great National League rider for starters.

 

Again you bring up.. 'went on to be'. What they went on to be is irrelevant. What is relevant is their abilities at the time they rode in the league.

 

It's very very easy to name a bunch of no 1's over an ever expanding period.

 

Go ahead and name me the same amount of second strings and reserves who weren't mediocre or journeymen. Should be easy for you, there's 4 times as many of them!

Maybe more interesting would be for you to name the amount second strings and reserves in the current PL who are not journeymen. That should be quite easy as there's only 13 teams. I might add how many of the said journeyman are foreign? Now that's the question that needs to be answered. Not by you but those who are in charge. No wonder no young English riders coming through. Robert Lambert started out in Germany and Tai Raced with all the good young Aussie's in Australia when he started out.

[stratton]

Collins rode 1 year in the National League and averaged 8. So you can scratch him off your list of being a great National League rider for starters.

 

Again you bring up.. 'went on to be'. What they went on to be is irrelevant. What is relevant is their abilities at the time they rode in the league.

 

It's very very easy to name a bunch of no 1's over an ever expanding period.

 

Go ahead and name me the same amount of second strings and reserves who weren't mediocre or journeymen. Should be easy for you, there's 4 times as many of them!

I will not mention any top class riders in this list these riders were BL second/ string reserve riders some better some even reached British finals winners/and higher.All well respected started in the NL, Auffrett,Bastable,N.Evitts,Pendlebury,Janke,Kennedy,Ferreira,Holloway,Hunt,Flatman,Jolly,Etheridge,Glover,M.Hines,Rossiter,Knight,Cross, Cartwright,Johns,Middleditch,Gagen,Finch,Galvin,Maxfield,Turner,Gachet,Dixon,Graham,Gugielmi,Mullett,Hewlett did well a massive loss) Mckeon,Howgego,Cox,Harding(massive loss) Drury,Woods,Herne,Weatherby,Geer,Lanham,Greer,J.Owen,T.Lomas,P.Carr,L.Carr,D.Kennett,Hunter,Mckinna,Reg.Wilson,Underwood,Thorp,White,Tyrer,Wigg,Richardson,Sampson,M.Piddock,Willmott,Thomas,Plant, Perks, Peterson.A few there some underachieved bigtime but my point was the old NL/ D2 served a purpose and it was far from MEDIOCRE.

[mdmc82]

Give me Emil over Darcy any day of the week.

[BWitcher]

I will not mention any top class riders in this list these riders were BL second/ string reserve riders some better some even reached British finals winners/and higher.All well respected started in the NL, Auffrett,Bastable,N.Evitts,Pendlebury,Janke,Kennedy,Ferreira,Holloway,Hunt,Flatman,Jolly,Etheridge,Glover,M.Hines,Rossiter,Knight,Cross, Cartwright,Johns,Middleditch,Gagen,Finch,Galvin,Maxfield,Turner,Gachet,Dixon,Graham,Gugielmi,Mullett,Hewlett did well a massive loss) Mckeon,Howgego,Cox,Harding(massive loss) Drury,Woods,Herne,Weatherby,Geer,Lanham,Greer,J.Owen,T.Lomas,P.Carr,L.Carr,D.Kennett,Hunter,Mckinna,Reg.Wilson,Underwood,Thorp,White,Tyrer,Wigg,Richardson,Sampson,M.Piddock,Willmott,Thomas,Plant, Perks, Peterson.A few there some underachieved bigtime but my point was the old NL/ D2 served a purpose and it was far from MEDIOCRE.

 

Once again another pointless list Sidney.

 

What they did in the BL is IRRELEVANT. It's what level they were at in their time in the NL.

 

However, it is a big long list mainly of pretty mediocre riders.

 

They're certainly not greats, they're certainly not very good riders.. they're riders of average quality.. which funnily enough is the definition of Mediocre.