BWitcher Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't see how I'm being contradictory. 3 recent PL riders Woffinden, Holder and Ward. Yes without doubt 3 world class riders, 2 world champions. No one can argue with that. Then you go back a few years to NP. You said in your post The PL of today. So what era from the NL would you like me to name riders who rode in the national League and then went on to ride in world finals etc. For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL. The fact is, it doesn't matter one iota what they did years later. The point of me naming Woffinden, Holder, Ward was to show you it's irrelevant. You've not quite grasped that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 Great man i first see him ride in 69 and my uncle used to say you might as well just write a maximum in the programme.He was certainly the most exciting rider i ever saw an awkward style but a flat out racer could he of won it in 72?I think so Barry and Ole were the best riders in that final but it was not to be i often thought Phil wouldn't it be great if Barry could of helped Ward for a bit all that wisdom and know how at the highest level. I believe that 'Briggo' would have won the World Final in 1972. To this day I have never forgiven Bernt Persson. I know that this has been argued about before. I was there and I know what I saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) Ask anyone who see regular NL racing whether it was a piece of cake or not?ithe hard part sometimes was the travelling.Also alot of different tracks all of them offering different challenges i watched a fair bit following Malc Holloway's career and it was hard.As a example going up to beat the likes of T.Owen,J.Owen( the best) Jackson,Lawson,Garrad,Cox,Etheridge,Woods,Ferreira,Dugard,Silver and endless others was far from easy by the way did YOU see any NL racing.? I first saw National League racing in April 1946 - that was top class professional international calibre racing with some of the pre-war greats in action - Jack Parker, Ron Johnson, Eric Chitty, Bill Kitchen etc etc. Edited July 10, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 The fact is, it doesn't matter one iota what they did years later. The point of me naming Woffinden, Holder, Ward was to show you it's irrelevant. You've not quite grasped that. The fact is you stated the the PL is stronger now than it was back when it was the National league. Can you please tell me barring Robert Lambert. Who in the top 20 do you think will go on to bigger and better things? I would also say there are plenty of journeyman in the PL today. The sad thing though is they are mostly Foreign! At least back in the day they were English. As for saying Woffinden, Holder ward is not irrelevant on the contrary, If you can't grasp that you have only named three riders plus NP. Does that not say there's not been much in the way of talent coming through from the PL. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 (edited) This kind of discussion really is pointless. The reason why I've enjoyed the NL/PL over the years is exactly that - it's been enjoyable, and one of the largest contributions to that enjoyment has been the attitude of people within it, whether officials or fans. The ruthless, cynical approach that infects not only the EL but also too many of its fans and will be its eventual downfall has been largely absent. The result matters, but not at the cost of the sport itself. I realised why we had the black and white helmet colour is nothing to do with double points but so that the likes of BWitcher can entertain themselves by arguing that its actually white and black. Well you have to do something to enjoy yourself when you're cut off from the sport you claim such expert knowledge of.... Edited July 10, 2015 by rmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 I started watching National league in the 1980's at Rye House and the national league back in the 80's through to the 90' was far far tougher than the premier league now. Garrard, Cox, Silver, Woods, Kennett, Dugard, Hunter, J Owen, T Owen, L.Collins, Wyer, Crabtree, Monaghan, Jackson, Finch, Lawson, Mckinna, Yeates, Wigg, Butler, Thorp, Galvin, Loram, Schofield, Wiltshire, Ferriera, Luckhurst, R Morton I could list loads of riders in that 10 year period who would quite simply top the premier league averages today but yet would struggle in the British League if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land Is this a first come, first served offer? I am a resident of Cloud Cuckoo Land. I swear allegiance to the flag. And I would like to be King. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 10, 2015 Report Share Posted July 10, 2015 This kind of discussion really is pointless. The reason why I've enjoyed the NL/PL over the years is exactly that - it's been enjoyable, and one of the largest contributions to that enjoyment has been the attitude of people within it, whether officials or fans. The ruthless, cynical approach that infects not only the EL but also too many of its fans and will be its eventual downfall has been largely absent. The result matters, but not at the cost of the sport itself. I realised why we had the black and white helmet colour is nothing to do with double points but so that the likes of BWitcher can entertain themselves by arguing that its actually white and black. Well you have to do something to enjoy yourself when you're cut off from the sport you claim such expert knowledge of.... What a load of pie in the sky nonsense. How are Scunthorpe getting on by the way? I started watching National league in the 1980's at Rye House and the national league back in the 80's through to the 90' was far far tougher than the premier league now. Garrard, Cox, Silver, Woods, Kennett, Dugard, Hunter, J Owen, T Owen, L.Collins, Wyer, Crabtree, Monaghan, Jackson, Finch, Lawson, Mckinna, Yeates, Wigg, Butler, Thorp, Galvin, Loram, Schofield, Wiltshire, Ferriera, Luckhurst, R Morton I could list loads of riders in that 10 year period who would quite simply top the premier league averages today but yet would struggle in the British League if you think the premier now is stronger than the old national league then you are in cloud cuckoo land Another long list of names that people judge from in the main at their peak.. which wasn't when they were riding consistently in the National League, with the exception of the National League journeymen who rarely ventured into the top flight. Once again though people think they were world beaters because they rode in a big league, in an easier heat format, racing against lesser riders and clocking up averages including bonus pts so there were lots of them with 9-11 pt averages. The National League has almost always (changed a bit in recent years) been the domain of up and coming riders who soon progress to the top flight (Wigg, Dugard, Loram), riders on the slide who look for an easier time at a lower standard (Kennett, Les Collins) and journeymen. It's very very easy to come up with a list of names of riders in that era.. I've already provided a list of names in a latter era Premier League that absolutely blow your list out of the water so it proves nothing, here they are and more.. Woffinden, Holder, Ward, N. Pedersen, B. Pedersen, K. Bjerre, Iversen, Doyle, Crump, Havelock. Right now in the PL you have riders such as Lambert, Nick Morris, Ben Barker, Sam Masters, Craig Cook, Danny King, Brady Kurtz, Jack Holder. Some of those are on the up and in years to come their names will look even more impressive.. some of them have reached their level and are taking advantage of a lower standard. Just how it's always been. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) The fact is, it doesn't matter one iota what they did years later. The point of me naming Woffinden, Holder, Ward was to show you it's irrelevant. You've not quite grasped that. You have not grasped that nobody were disputing the PL is a decent product personally i prefer it to the EL.But if you go through the years say from 1969 the NL has produced Collins,x4 Lee,Wilkinson,Davis,Louis, Crump,Havelock,Boyce,Loram,G.Kennett,Holden,Jessup,Silver,Adams,Schofield,Wiltshire,Wigg.That is 20 named off my head Gavan also has named a load also to my point is the NL was not just a league that a 47 year old Ken Mckinlay rode in ( journeyman ) it produced alot of good British riders.For me though to go away in the NL and win was very hard to do most had very good home riders and there were some tough characters around then real team men. Edited July 11, 2015 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 You have not grasped that nobody were disputing the PL is a decent product personally i prefer it to the EL.But if you go through the years say from 1969 the NL has produced Collins,x4 Lee,Wilkinson,Davis,Louis, Crump,Havelock,Boyce,Loram,G.Kennett,Holden,Jessup,Silver,Adams,Schofield,Wiltshire,Wigg.That is 20 named off my head Gavan also has named a load also to my point is the NL was not just a league that a 47 year old Ken Mckinlay rode in ( journeyman ) it produced alot of good British riders.For me though to go away in the NL and win was very hard to do most had very good home riders and there were some tough characters around then real team men. Once again, thanks for proving my point for me. The national league was never super tough, riders of ability would clean up and very quickly move on, riders on the wane who could no longer cut it at the top could extend their career by years and journeymen riders could forge a decent career. You're expandind your time frame ever more and more in an attempt to prove something. Even bringing riders who raced for one season in the league into your argument. As said, there are many names who had short spells in the league on the way up, some who had longer spells on the way down.. But the overwhelming majority of the league was mediocrity and below. That's why its z lower league! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 Maybe I'm wrong but, I can't see how I'm being contradictory. 3 recent PL riders Woffinden, Holder and Ward. Yes without doubt 3 world class riders, 2 world champions. No one can argue with that. Then you go back a few years to NP. You said in your post The PL of today. So what era from the NL would you like me to name riders who rode in the national League and then went on to ride in world finals etc. For example take Martin Yates No1 at Weymouth early 80's NL. Can you honestly say at the same time He could have been No1 at Swindon? I think we both would agree the answer would be no. I would say If he were riding today, he would have no trouble scoring double figures In the EL. You think Martin Yeates would have had no trouble scoring double figures in the EL? So you're effectively saying he would have an 8 point average. That puts him at the same level as Darcy Ward, Maciej Janowski and Niels Kristian Iversen. Martin Yeates was a good NL rider but do you really think he was as good as those 3? I certainly don't. Decent riders never stayed long in the old NL. Nick Morris, for example, would have been gone by now and be full time at Swindon. The real top riders were people like the Owens, Yeates, schofield, Jackson etc. People who spent most of their careers at the lower level. They were decent riders, but overall it was much more of a stepping stone league for the promising riders - much more than it is today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 What a load of pie in the sky nonsense. How are Scunthorpe getting on by the way? Another long list of names that people judge from in the main at their peak.. which wasn't when they were riding consistently in the National League, with the exception of the National League journeymen who rarely ventured into the top flight. Once again though people think they were world beaters because they rode in a big league, in an easier heat format, racing against lesser riders and clocking up averages including bonus pts so there were lots of them with 9-11 pt averages. The National League has almost always (changed a bit in recent years) been the domain of up and coming riders who soon progress to the top flight (Wigg, Dugard, Loram), riders on the slide who look for an easier time at a lower standard (Kennett, Les Collins) and journeymen. It's very very easy to come up with a list of names of riders in that era.. I've already provided a list of names in a latter era Premier League that absolutely blow your list out of the water so it proves nothing, here they are and more.. Woffinden, Holder, Ward, N. Pedersen, B. Pedersen, K. Bjerre, Iversen, Doyle, Crump, Havelock. Right now in the PL you have riders such as Lambert, Nick Morris, Ben Barker, Sam Masters, Craig Cook, Danny King, Brady Kurtz, Jack Holder. Some of those are on the up and in years to come their names will look even more impressive.. some of them have reached their level and are taking advantage of a lower standard. Just how it's always been. I think we are going round in circles here. No one is disputing The PL is a good league but, for you to name Ben Barker and Danny King?. How long have Barker and King been riding? Surely they must be in, your criteria journeyman? Both have ridden in the top flight (How anyone can call it top flight I'll never know) Both are now in the PL Both late 20's. I did say barring Robert Lambert, but yes I do agree with you on the 3 Aussie's Even though Masters and Morris have been riding a few seasons. Wiltishire, Boyce and Adams. all with in a few of years of riding in the NL were in world finals. Wiltshire 2nd, Boyce 3rd. Havelock and Crump were a product of the National league And sadly you have to include Danish riders to make up your list. What's more unfortunate is the number of foreign riders in the PL who can't even average 5.00. Could that be why English riders are not making it to the top? One last thing. How many genuine English riders are there in the EL? Because after watching the recent British Final, 14 of the riders were Double uppers. How times change, Peter Collins 1 British Championship to his name. Scott Nicholls 7 Chris Harris 3. Next your be telling me these two were far better than Collins! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 The number of double uppers show how the PL is stronger than the old NL. In the NL days those riders would not be in the lower league. They would have moved on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) You think Martin Yeates would have had no trouble scoring double figures in the EL? So you're effectively saying he would have an 8 point average. That puts him at the same level as Darcy Ward, Maciej Janowski and Niels Kristian Iversen. Martin Yeates was a good NL rider but do you really think he was as good as those 3? I certainly don't. Decent riders never stayed long in the old NL. Nick Morris, for example, would have been gone by now and be full time at Swindon. The real top riders were people like the Owens, Yeates, schofield, Jackson etc. People who spent most of their careers at the lower level. They were decent riders, but overall it was much more of a stepping stone league for the promising riders - much more than it is today. I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth? As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them! The number of double uppers show how the PL is stronger than the old NL. In the NL days those riders would not be in the lower league. They would have moved on. No I think it shows how low the standard of speedway in this country has become.. Edited July 11, 2015 by tyler42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) I did not say he would be as good as Ward, Janowski and Iversen but the standard of the EL is so poor Imo he would have no trouble getting double figures. Let's put it another way, do you think Ben Barker, Simon Stead, Richard Lawson to name but a few would have been out and out No1's in the NL when Yates was riding for Weymouth? They would have been. Yes. regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them. As for saying Schofield, Yates the Owen bros were just decent riders. that is open to debate, but imo there's not a lot of English riders the PL who could hold a candle to any of them! I would agree that nowadays these would be high up in the list of British riders due mainly to this not being such a good period for British riders, but you,re basing the strength of an entire league based on a select few riders who really shouldn't have stayed there because they were too good for it. No I think it shows how low the standard of speedway in this country has become.. I think it shows that the standard in the top league has dropped and the standard in the second tier has become stronger. Edited July 11, 2015 by grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) They would have been. Yes. regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them. I would agree that nowadays these would be high up in the list of British riders due mainly to this not being such a good period for British riders, but you,re basing the strength of an entire league based on a select few riders who really shouldn't have stayed there because they were too good for it. I think it shows that the standard in the top league has dropped and the standard in the second tier has become stronger. 'They would have been. Yes.' That is your opinion. Not fact 'regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them.' You are putting words in my mouth. Where have I said Yates was better than them. You have picked three of the best riders in the league for your argument. 'I would agree that nowadays these would be high up in the list of British riders due mainly to this not being such a good period for British riders, but you,re basing the strength of an entire league based on a select few riders who really shouldn't have stayed there because they were too good for it.' I would argue and say,they weren't too good for that league. The 1st division was a lot stronger then. Three world class heat leaders solid second strings, not double uppers and 2 reserves not FTR just to save money. so moving up meant you had to be pretty good. 'I think it shows that the standard in the top league has dropped and the standard in the second tier has become stronger.' Aren't you contradicting yourself , when you saying a few selected riders should't have stayed in the NL? I could name more than just a few who progressed from the NL to become top riders and this in my opinion is reason why it's not been a good period for British riders, because the PL is weaker now than what it was back then. Of course it's only my opinion not fact. It's nice to have a debate and no doubt this will be argued in another ten or twenty years, when hopefully we will still have speedway to debate about . Edited July 11, 2015 by tyler42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) 'regarding Yeates. Having no trouble getting double figures from 5 rides (including a heat 15) gives him an 8 point average minimum. So, yes, you are saying he's as good as them.' You are putting words in my mouth. Where have I said Yates was better than them. You have picked three of the best riders in the league for your argument. I didn't pick them. You picked them by saying Yeates would easily get double figures. That's a minimum 8.00 average, so that's the level you put him at. That is the level of rider that scores double figures in the EL. This is what you are saying. Riders above 8 (ie similar standard to Martin Yeates): Holder Janowski Iversen Doyle Ward Riders below 8 (ie not as good as Martin Yeates) Zagar Andersen Jonsson Harris Lindgren Kildemand 'They would have been. Yes.' That is your opinion. Not fact Correct. I would argue and say,they weren't too good for that league. The 1st division was a lot stronger then. Three world class heat leaders solid second strings, not double uppers and 2 reserves not FTR just to save money. so moving up meant you had to be pretty good.Yes, as I've said. The top flight was stronger then. The riders that chose to stay NL did so because they lacked ambition and opted for easy money in the lower leagues. They were never going to become top international riders because they lacked the ambition. Edited July 11, 2015 by grachan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldogs Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 What is the most likely route for Darcy back into the GPs? Assuming he wants to return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler42 Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 I didn't pick them. You picked them by saying Yeates would easily get double figures. That's a minimum 8.00 average, so that's the level you put him at. That is the level of rider that scores double figures in the EL. This is what you are saying. Riders above 8 (ie similar standard to Martin Yeates): Holder Janowski Iversen Doyle Ward Riders below 8 (ie not as good as Martin Yeates) Zagar Andersen Jonsson Harris Lindgren Kildemand If you was to use that criteria, then yes you are quite correct. Correct. Yes, as I've said. The top flight was stronger then. The riders that chose to stay NL did so because they lacked ambition and opted for easy money in the lower leagues. They were never going to become top international riders because they lacked the ambition. I still can't see how you can say they lacked ambition, when I have already said in my opinion, the 1st division was a lot harder. I would say you are correct in say for arguments case. Riders like Andy Galvin, Martin Goodwin, Nigel Crabtree etc, should have moved up a league, but I think your argument is flawed when Riders like Paul Thorpe, Havelock, Chris Louis, Dugard, Cross, etc did move up and went on to be good International riders. How many English riders that ride in the PL will go on to be of the same quality? Lambert yes Cook no Garrty maybe not. I'm finding it hard to name some. maybe you can name them for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozrik Posted July 11, 2015 Report Share Posted July 11, 2015 What is the most likely route for Darcy back into the GPs? Assuming he wants to return Wild card for next year. Otherwise through the qualifiers next year for season 2017. Long way off but. Unless you know another way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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