Darcy Ward

[Guest]

Tom Farndon died in 1935. All those riders you mentioned rode after the War. How many people still around do you think actually saw Tom Farndon ride?

 

You think Jack Milne was one of the three greatest riders of all time. You are obviously wrong as people don't remember him either.

Just to refresh minds on Jack Milne: -

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Milne

 

http://www.motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/detail.aspx?RacerID=233

 

PS: Ron Johnson and George Newton rode for both Crystal Palace and New Cross at the same time as Tom Farndon as well as both being active post-war. Bill Longley also rode pre-war for New Cross but after the death of Tom Farndon. He was also at New Cross post-war.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[The White Knight]

Tom Farndon died in 1935. All those riders you mentioned rode after the War. How many people still around do you think actually saw Tom Farndon ride?

 

You think Jack Milne was one of the three greatest riders of all time. You are obviously wrong as people don't remember him either.

I have only heard of Tom Farndon, Jack Milne and Cordy Milne and read about them. From reading about them I think they were something special. I have read a lot about those days in 'Vintage Speedway' Magazine and also 'Classic Speedway' Magazine, the worthy successor to the Vintage Magazine.

 

I love reading about that era and I can highly recommend 'Classic Speedway' Magazine in reference to those times.

[John Leslie]

 

I have read it.

 

You've put your own spin onto it, the way you WANT it to read. Ward's lawyers will put their own spin of how they WANT it to read.

 

It's poorly worded and can be interpreted both ways... which is where the FIM could have problems.

Nonsense. It isn't poorly worded at all.

 

If it said "breath or blood" it would be poorly worded, because it wouldn't be clear if that meant the "exclusive or" or the "inclusive or".

 

If both breath and blood tests were done, someone might try to argue that you can't do both, because it says "or" not both. (the exclusive or).

 

So they have clarified (by use of 'and/or') that it means the "inclusive or". That is, it can be breath OR blood....but it can also be both.

 

It's completely clear.

[norbold]

 

PS: Ron Johnson and George Newton rode for both Crystal Palace and New Cross at the same time as Tom Farndon as well as both being active post-war. Bill Longley also rode pre-war for New Cross but after the death of Tom Farndon. He was also at New Cross post-war.

And your point is......?

[Tsunami]

So as suspected, Ward is looking to weasel his way off on a technicality.

 

He'll now become a wanted man that's for sure.

Wouldn't you, for say a drink driving charge or a parking ticket. Funny how everyone is suddenly above this sort of thing.

[SCB]

Wouldn't you, for say a drink driving charge or a parking ticket. Funny how everyone is suddenly above this sort of thing.

Funny that as when I posted the tales on this forum about getting off on technicalities for speeding and parking this forum went into meltdown calling me all sorts. So no, it's not considered acceptable by most

[Jacques]

Wouldn't you, for say a drink driving charge or a parking ticket. Funny how everyone is suddenly above this sort of thing.

 

Coming form Mr Moral high ground, this is hilarious

Edited January 22, 2015 by Jacques

[Guest]

Tom Farndon died in 1935. All those riders you mentioned rode after the War. How many people still around do you think actually saw Tom Farndon ride?

 

 

 

 

And your point is......?

 

Well you indicated they were post-war riders - Ron Johnson, George Newton and Bill Longley - when in fact they were active both sides of the war years!

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[norbold]

Are you really as dense as you make out, gustix?

[Star Lady]

Just to add another dimension to the debate. If Ward gets off will he need a visa (I've no idea of his nationality status). If he does need one will he get one in time for the start of the season?

[Guest]

Are you really as dense as you make out, gustix?

You didn't regard me as dense in the times when I used to give you data on the books ypu were researching or when I previewed them in various publications?

Well what does the following quote mean? You seem to be losing your usual cool approach over this Tom Farndon debate? The three riders concerned raced both sides of the war years.

 

norbold,

Tom Farndon died in 1935. All those riders you mentioned rode after the War.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[BWitcher]

Nonsense. It isn't poorly worded at all.

 

If it said "breath or blood" it would be poorly worded, because it wouldn't be clear if that meant the "exclusive or" or the "inclusive or".

 

If both breath and blood tests were done, someone might try to argue that you can't do both, because it says "or" not both. (the exclusive or).

 

So they have clarified (by use of 'and/or') that it means the "inclusive or". That is, it can be breath OR blood....but it can also be both.

 

It's completely clear.

 

As said, I can totally see the way you are explaining it and I'm sure that is what it is meant to mean.

 

However, you can be assured that lawyers will twist it their way.

[pugwash]

You didn't regard me as dense in the times when I used to give you data on the books ypu were researching or when I previewed them in various publications?

,

Picked your brains then dropped you in a hole did he?

[John Leslie]

 

However, you can be assured that lawyers will twist it their way.

There's nothing to twist. (not in that perfectly clear bit of wording anyway - whether there's any other legal goings on regarding things that happened that weekend we can only but guess).

Edited January 22, 2015 by John Leslie

[E I Addio]

 

As said, I can totally see the way you are explaining it and I'm sure that is what it is meant to mean.

 

However, you can be assured that lawyers will twist it their way.

 

If that's their strongest argument it is unlikely to get very far. It is a sloppy term but in legal documents it is usually understood the way John Leslie has explained :-

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And/or

 

In the unlikely event that Wards lawyers would run this argument as the main limb of their case they would probably have to show that there is some precedent for it being interpreted in a way favourable to that argument in the past.

 

The other thing is that there is almost certainly something in the rules to say how they should be interpreted in the event of a dispute on meaning.

 

I think it highly likely that the FIM rules on these procedures are very much in line with those of other administrative bodies like the FIA, FIFA and similar organisations and if their was any mileage in the point it would almost certainly have been tested by now

Edited January 22, 2015 by E I Addio

[iris123]

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a PM that I have received on this topic:

 

 

shaleway6980

Today at 9:59 AM

The title of the book was Tom Fardon, 'The Greatest Speedway Rider Of Them All'. With the greatest respect to the Farndon family I think it was an unfortunate title.For sure he was a great rider and maybe as his his career was short he dropped from public recognition.

Certainly the response i get as a bookseller is "who was Tom Farndon?' When people think New Cross, it is Johnno, Bill Longley and wee Georgie Newton that come to mind.

 

 

 

Tom Farndon died in 1935. All those riders you mentioned rode after the War. How many people still around do you think actually saw Tom Farndon ride?

 

You think Jack Milne was one of the three greatest riders of all time. You are obviously wrong as people don't remember him either.

 

 

 

PS: Ron Johnson and George Newton rode for both Crystal Palace and New Cross at the same time as Tom Farndon as well as both being active post-war. Bill Longley also rode pre-war for New Cross but after the death of Tom Farndon. He was also at New Cross post-war.

My take on this,and consider that i didn't see speedway in the 40s or 50s and was never editor of The Star or worked for the SLP,but do pride myself on being able to follow a conversation, is this.......Farndon died far too early and the other riders you and the bookseller mentioned rode more than a decade after Tom.That makes it more likely that people who saw New Cross,saw them.Those that saw Tom were/are few and far between.Same goes for the Milne brothers,Vic Huxley,Sprouts Elder and Billy Lamont.No mention of whether they did or didn't ride pre-war was made because it wasn't relevant........

 

Are you really as dense as you make out, gustix?

There was no need to delay the hearing on this subject.Judgment made, case is closed

Edited January 22, 2015 by iris123

[Guest]

 

 

 

 

My take on this,and consider that i didn't see speedway in the 40s or 50s and was never editor of The Star or worked for the SLP,but do pride myself on being able to follow a conversation, is this.......Farndon died far too early and the other riders you and the bookseller mentioned rode more than a decade after Tom.That makes it more likely that people who saw New Cross,saw them.Those that saw Tom were/are few and far between.Same goes for the Milne brothers,Vic Huxley,Sprouts Elder and Billy Lamont.No mention of whether they did or didn't ride pre-war was made because it wasn't relevant........

 

 

 

Ron Johnson and George Newton were team-mates of Tom Farndon at both Crystal Palace and then New Cross.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[BWitcher]

 

If that's their strongest argument it is unlikely to get very far. It is a sloppy term but in legal documents it is usually understood the way John Leslie has explained :-

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And/or

 

In the unlikely event that Wards lawyers would run this argument as the main limb of their case they would probably have to show that there is some precedent for it being interpreted in a way favourable to that argument in the past.

 

The other thing is that there is almost certainly something in the rules to say how they should be interpreted in the event of a dispute on meaning.

 

I think it highly likely that the FIM rules on these procedures are very much in line with those of other administrative bodies like the FIA, FIFA and similar organisations and if their was any mileage in the point it would almost certainly have been tested by now

 

I agree.

 

I'm not really disagreeing with John Leslie either, I would lean towards his interpretation too.

 

I'm simply looking at it from the Ward angle.

 

With regards to previous cases, it would be interesting to know if the normal procedure following a failed breath test is to take a blood sample. If, for example, in all the previous occasions this was the procedure followed, but this time only a breath test was taken, they could perhaps use that as an angle.

[Guest]

Are you really as dense as you make out, gustix?

 

 

You didn't regard me as dense in the times when I used to give you data on the books you were researching or when I previewed them in various publications?

 

 

Picked your brains then dropped you in a hole did he?

 

I wonder pugwash...!

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guest

[iris123]

Ron Johnson and George Newton were team-mates of Tom Farndon at both Crystal Palace and then New Cross.

Obviously going over your head,but it isn't relevant to the point being made