scribbler Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Good post, for what its worth I think Dudek probably has taken a banned substance unwittingly, but I`m afraid the bottom line is he has taken a banned substance and should be banned accordingly. Should Dudek's ban be lower than Ward's if Dudek unknowingly took a banned substance and Ward knowingly took a banned substance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Vicks comes in what forms, vapour rub, that stick you stick up your nose, nasal spray, cold and flu remedy etc. So what's in the stuff in it that is deemed performance enhancing? Surely you'd have to take a lot of the stuff, or sniff a lot for it to do anything? In the UK absolutely nothing Jacques, it is fine. IN America it contains one of the banned ones but I couldnt tell you offhand what it is as I cant remember - maybe I need some myself lol. A lot of diruretics also include things in very small quantities that would be 'banned' but the quantity is not the issue, its the fact the substance is there. I know I am not putting myself across very well here, cant quite put into words what I mean - I am not saying he isnt guilty, just that they need to know where it came from before becoming judge jury and executioner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 The more I hear about both Dudek and Ward the more I think they both should be fined say £3k, and banned for 1 year, but suspended for 18 months. A monthly testing programme to be agreed with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) I was replying to a post that mentioned the FIM.........it doesn't matter.There are banned substances and riders have the responsibilty to avoid them.Just like as a car driver it is my responsibilty not to drive if taking a medicine that will affect my driving.... Edited August 22, 2014 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 Should Dudek's ban be lower than Ward's if Dudek unknowingly took a banned substance and Ward knowingly took a banned substance? Sadly I believe Dudek probably unknowingly took a banned substance, and will be done for taking a banned drug, with Ward, alcohol is not an illegal substance but riding in a speedway meeting with it in your system is, so he will probably get the lighter sentence but IMO Ward knowingly took an amount of alcohol that he probably knew was wrong while Dudek is the victim of the system that govern our sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I saw a list of banned substances many years ago now 15 years ago at least and the list was literally endless! I can't even imagine what it's like now I've also taken some flu remedies when I had a really bad and they were awful, verging on hallucinating terrible stuff. Night Nurse ( if it's still about) I know is one of the worst. I actually worked with a girl, who struggled on night shift, so she would take night nurse when she got in in the morning, then pro plus to keep her goin through the night.... The banned substance situation is a minefield to say the least. I was replying to a post that mentioned the FIM.........it doesn't matter.There are banned substances and riders have the responsibilty to avoid them.Just like as a car driver it is my responsibilty not to drive if taking a medicine that will affect my driving.... I take medication that say's it may cause drowsiness and if affected to not drive or operate machinery. It doesn't mean you shouldn't drive full stop Iris. I does make sure that the drug have their backs covered though! ( I'm expecting a comment about this) Anyway, another question I have is, this breath test on a hand held device, which would not be sufficient here in England and Wales to ban someone from driving, the only thing that they do to determine guilt, so to speak? No blood tests ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 I saw a list of banned substances many years ago now 15 years ago at least and the list was literally endless! I can't even imagine what it's like now I've also taken some flu remedies when I had a really bad and they were awful, verging on hallucinating terrible stuff. Night Nurse ( if it's still about) I know is one of the worst. I actually worked with a girl, who struggled on night shift, so she would take night nurse when she got in in the morning, then pro plus to keep her goin through the night.... The banned substance situation is a minefield to say the least. I take medication that say's it may cause drowsiness and if affected to not drive or operate machinery. It doesn't mean you shouldn't drive full stop Iris. I does make sure that the drug have their backs covered though! ( I'm expecting a comment about this) Anyway, another question I have is, this breath test on a hand held device, which would not be sufficient here in England and Wales to ban someone from driving, the only thing that they do to determine guilt, so to speak? No blood tests ?? Might be ok to drive with the drowsy stuff,but what about the "verging on hallucinating terrible stuff" ?? Also i had an eye infection that was treated with an ointment that made my vision blurry for 15-20 minutes.Not advisable to jump in a car straight away. Like i say it is our responsibility and it is also the riders.No-one admits to doing wrong nowadays until undeniable evidence is produced.Until that point everything is denied point blank..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted August 22, 2014 Report Share Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) Might be ok to drive with the drowsy stuff,but what about the "verging on hallucinating terrible stuff" ?? Also i had an eye infection that was treated with an ointment that made my vision blurry for 15-20 minutes.Not advisable to jump in a car straight away. Like i say it is our responsibility and it is also the riders.No-one admits to doing wrong nowadays until undeniable evidence is produced.Until that point everything is denied point blank..... Absolutely! Drink drive offences here, come under traffic law and are known as 'absolute offences' once all the procedures are complete. The hand held device is only a a screening process... Not sure how the FIM work? Edited August 22, 2014 by Jacques Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Check out other threads which go along the lines of “Speedway is not run professionally” as a starting point. Management and organisation of the sport has always been called into question when compared to other “proper” sports. SO – do we want to add to the accusations that Speedway is soft on drug takers and drunkards? Do we want other sports to ban its competitors when found positive for drug taking but only slap speedway riders on the wrists? Is that the way to prove Speedway to be a “proper” and “professional” sport? Baseball in the USA is going down this path of appeasement to drug takers and it’s rapidly becoming a sport of ridicule as a result. Is that where we want Speedway to go too? So, the case for the defence is that Dudek inadvertently took the drug. He wasn’t aware that it was in something that he consumed. Well, would you expect anything else to be said? Lance Armstrong used a similar defence. As did Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell. Check out this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics - and ask yourself how many of these you think held their hands up and said “fair cop guv, you got me fair and square”? With neigh-on EVERYONE denying willingly or knowingly taking drugs, how differently can you take one person’s claims to everyone else’s? Just because you have an affinity to him because he’s a nice lad (albeit a Falubaz rider LOL) and he’s in your sport and it’s a first offence…he’s been busted the same as all the others have been busted and he has to be treated the same as all the others. Sorry but soft soaping this case isn’t the answer. If he’s got a 2 year sentence, then that’s par for the course, and is the correct verdict IMHO. Other sports have coped without their banned superstars, Speedway will need to do so too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 Check out other threads which go along the lines of “Speedway is not run professionally” as a starting point. Management and organisation of the sport has always been called into question when compared to other “proper” sports. SO – do we want to add to the accusations that Speedway is soft on drug takers and drunkards? Do we want other sports to ban its competitors when found positive for drug taking but only slap speedway riders on the wrists? Is that the way to prove Speedway to be a “proper” and “professional” sport? Baseball in the USA is going down this path of appeasement to drug takers and it’s rapidly becoming a sport of ridicule as a result. Is that where we want Speedway to go too? So, the case for the defence is that Dudek inadvertently took the drug. He wasn’t aware that it was in something that he consumed. Well, would you expect anything else to be said? Lance Armstrong used a similar defence. As did Tyson Gay and Asafa Powell. Check out this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_athletics - and ask yourself how many of these you think held their hands up and said “fair cop guv, you got me fair and square”? With neigh-on EVERYONE denying willingly or knowingly taking drugs, how differently can you take one person’s claims to everyone else’s? Just because you have an affinity to him because he’s a nice lad (albeit a Falubaz rider LOL) and he’s in your sport and it’s a first offence…he’s been busted the same as all the others have been busted and he has to be treated the same as all the others. Sorry but soft soaping this case isn’t the answer. If he’s got a 2 year sentence, then that’s par for the course, and is the correct verdict IMHO. Other sports have coped without their banned superstars, Speedway will need to do so too. I was a trifle HORSE when I read this Post. :rofl: :rofl: See what I did there................................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 See what I did there................................... Got a nagging feeling I do 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Stadia Posted August 28, 2014 Report Share Posted August 28, 2014 I was a trifle HORSE when I read this Post. :rofl: :rofl: See what I did there................................... I am glad we still have some STABLE members on this forum! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clambo71 Posted August 29, 2014 Report Share Posted August 29, 2014 Sorry screm but you are wrong. Im not saying it is the case here but it IS possible he could have taken it innocently and they have to make sure that its not been a genuine mistake. Looking for a simpler example, do you suffer from hayfever? Hayfever sufferers often take some form of antihystamine that can be bought over the counter. What a lot of people probably dont realise is some brands include a compound that includes a 'banned' substance under FIM rules whilst other brands do not. If they have checked that its okay to take antihystamine in general and been told yes is it reasonable to know that there are a couple of brands out there that the 'yes' does not apply to? IF Dudek has knowingly taken a banned substance then yes, throw the book and anything else you want. But until they identify exactly what he took it in then its wrong to label him makes no difference if its a mistake. Didn't that Scottish skier use a vick inhaler that he uses regularly in Europe but the Olympics were in Canada so lost his silver medal and received a ban. In north America it contains other ingredients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted September 2, 2014 Report Share Posted September 2, 2014 Sorry to go nagging on about this, but please see my previous post. EVERYONE claims to have taken drugs by mistake. EVERYONE claims that they didn't know what they were consuming. Lance Armstrong claimed his innocence. Linford Christie claimed his innocence. What else do you expect Patyck Dudek to say? The thing about drugs is, you are assumed guilty until proven guilty! That's the way. No leniency because you are a speedway rider, or because you are a nice guy, or because you help old ladies to cross the road. Get found with drugs in your system and that's it. Just be grateful that they don't banish drug takers to Siberia any more in the old East European countries and that in a couple of years time he'll be back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uk_martin Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 I've heard from a Polish source that there is a possibility that Falubaz Zielona Gora may have the points scored by Dudek stripped away from them (and re-allocated?) Not sure if this is just idle speculation of if it is being considered by the authorities, whether it will be enacted, but it could have a devastating impact on the final league table and to the play-offs if it happens. Has anyone else seen/read/heard anything to elaborate on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 makes no difference if its a mistake. Didn't that Scottish skier use a vick inhaler that he uses regularly in Europe but the Olympics were in Canada so lost his silver medal and received a ban. In north America it contains other ingredients. I know it makes no difference - the point I was making is that it WAS possible, in general, to take it unwittingly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ndbendbeerhut Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 At the end of the day there is a list of products that cannot be taken and its upto the rider to question anything they consume. If not sure they need to ask. Simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Central Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Sorry to go nagging on about this, but please see my previous post. EVERYONE claims to have taken drugs by mistake. EVERYONE claims that they didn't know what they were consuming. Lance Armstrong claimed his innocence. Linford Christie claimed his innocence. What else do you expect Patyck Dudek to say? The thing about drugs is, you are assumed guilty until proven guilty! That's the way. No leniency because you are a speedway rider, or because you are a nice guy, or because you help old ladies to cross the road. Get found with drugs in your system and that's it. Just be grateful that they don't banish drug takers to Siberia any more in the old East European countries and that in a couple of years time he'll be back. I know it makes no difference - the point I was making is that it WAS possible, in general, to take it unwittingly At the end of the day there is a list of products that cannot be taken and its upto the rider to question anything they consume. If not sure they need to ask. Simple Yes it's the old 'I must have taken it unwittingly' defence. Always comes up when someone is caught. Just about every single time. And all those negative tests that get taken time after time, meeting after meeting. I wonder if some people think they were just 'unwittingly' clean? No they were clean. Full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Err....I havent said ANYWHERE that he has taken it unwittingly - I have just pointed out that it is possible to do so. Just love it when people put words in your mouth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted September 3, 2014 Report Share Posted September 3, 2014 Crumbs!!! Reading some of the Posts on here - it must be great to be perfect. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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