The Future Of The Elite League

[moxey63]

There is nothing wrong with a club employing a Grand Prix rider if the GP rider actually wants to ride here and does a deal that a club can genuinely afford....to ban them all purely because they are GP riders is just denying the fans any chance of seeing them

And if GP riders were banned then riders mentioned like Hans Andersen and the like would just demand more anyway because their value as number 1 riders increases even more....and then if clubs decided the likes of Andersen and the second tier were too expensive you are left with a purely domestic league that some people seem to want but would have little widespread appeal and would definitely ensure England would be in the international wilderness for years to come

 

I agree mostly, by all means allow the GP riders in who are prepared to put in a shift, and any rider - Hans Andersen was mentioned - demanding more money because of his demand, surely a cap depending on averages could be conceived.

 

It is good, putting all the ideas up for discussion, the pro's and con's, but unless promoters are in... then we are just idling in deckchair talk.

[fatface]

As for facts you only have to look at the last time Emil rode for cove the crowds went way up home and away I remember the crowd at brum that night etc he was a massive draw . Yet again it's madness to think that crowds would not be bigger if Emil and Gollob were in the el

You are choosing really poor examples to support your really poor argument. It makes me wonder if you are being deeply ironic when questioning other people's common sense.

 

Of course, there were bigger crowds who came out to see Sayfutdinov (go on, have a go at the surname..you can do it!). He was brand new to Britain, a top rider and a genuine novelty when he first arrived. Coventry were trying to make a big statement after they almost got kicked out of the league that year. Thing is though, he missed loads of matches, cost Coventry a fortune and ultimately it didn't work out. That's why Coventry nor any other British club has brought him back since. Novelty wears thin pretty quickly and that is why even when a British world champion turns up at your track, there is no huge surge in crowds.

 

Our league needs to be quality, but competitive and cost effective. GP riders do not bring in the dough they are costing on a week-by-week basis. As I've outlined above in my proposed model there is a place for them in Britain in test matches or each club's individual meetings. When they are a genuine novelty they can be a genuine attraction again. It's why the Ben Fund meet is always a success. Yes, people are happy its for a good cause. But mainly if its a rare chance to see Nicki Pedersen on a British track, they will make the effort. But when its just at standard league racing, their presence isn't making a vast difference. There is no novelty value.

You forgot to add in one off world finals and second halfs ...all the above are tired and dated and mostly dead formats that died out years ago .

 

How wold retain Andersen and Pedersen etc ? are going to let them off riding Sweden on Tuesdays Denmark on Wednesdays Euro champ meetings etc etc ...and how would you paid for them with the crowds cut in half ? Love the north and south plan meaning that you would not see some of the riders the whole season .

There are lessons from the past and the present. The GPs and Play-Offs are not everyone's cup of tea. Ditto nominated races. I think they have been good for the sport. Pairs and fours have also long been a success at PL level and I don't see the point in scrapping them when their finals have been a proven crowd puller for the majority of fans. My other ideas would breathe fresh life into individual meetings. I believe a Blue Riband or 16 lapper with a sprinkling of GP stars would be a hit. Similarly a five test GB v Australia series.

 

As for your other point, mainly it looks like gibberish. You might have to have another go at that. There seems to be something about crowds being cut in half though. I don't know if that is necessarily the case when you take GP riders out of the equation or even if you add them in. Have Ipswich's crowds halved? Conversely have Birmingham and Leicester's doubled since they stepped up? Being the man with all the facts, I'm sure you will have the exact figures to hand. I look forward to reading your blueprint for the future of British Speedway's leagues.

[orion]

You are choosing really poor examples to support your really poor argument. It makes me wonder if you are being deeply ironic when questioning other people's common sense.

 

Of course, there were bigger crowds who came out to see Sayfutdinov (go on, have a go at the surname..you can do it!). He was brand new to Britain, a top rider and a genuine novelty when he first arrived. Coventry were trying to make a big statement after they almost got kicked out of the league that year. Thing is though, he missed loads of matches, cost Coventry a fortune and ultimately it didn't work out. That's why Coventry nor any other British club has brought him back since. Novelty wears thin pretty quickly and that is why even when a British world champion turns u

Yet again why do you keep going back to the money side ?it had nothing to do with the simple fact that you said that top riders don't bring crowds in . Being able to afford them is another debate

 

The biggest laugh of course is you saying me that Emil was a bad example of the point I was making . Only for you in your next breath you to say in that he did indeed brings extra fans in .

Edited August 21, 2014 by orion

[John44]

I'm recently an addition to team Moxey/Oldace, as a Belle Vue supporter since my first meeting in 1973 as a 10 year old.

I had started to become a bit disheartened with the sport over the last 4/5 years and decided that the last meeting against Poole last season was the final straw. Even though I thought 'that's it now' after the Poole meet I still had thoughts of well maybe 1 more chance etc but the the fast track reserve rule was announced and that's what stopped me from renewing my season ticket.

It's not just me though that hasn't renewed the ST it's my 2sons and daughter along with her boyfriend so 5 in all plus some weeks my grand children would come too. There's many a time it's been 3 cars needed to go to Kirky Lane but none of us has been to a single match this season. The sad part too is I haven't missed going either and wonder if I will bother again now.

Edited August 21, 2014 by John44

[fatface]

Yet again why do you keep going back to the money side ?it had nothing to do with the simple fact that you said that top riders don't bring crowds in . Being able to afford them is another debate

 

The biggest laugh of course is you saying me that Emil was a bad example of the point I was making . Only for you in your next breath you to say in that he did indeed brings extra fans in .

Fine. It's now pretty clear you don't have the attention span to read or understand my posts on this topic. Fair enough. You still haven't given us any facts and haven't been able to provide your own model for the future. It's clear to see neither are forthcoming. Your contribution has been poor on information, but excellent on entertainment value - I'll give you that.

 

For those who have the capacity to grasp the issues, I'll explain further why I think why League Speedway should go without GP riders.

 

Firstly, it's about reducing costs. I don't believe top dollar riders are justifying their fees to league speedway. I also don't think the second tier of riders..Andersen etc. would suddenly start asking ridiculous fees. If they did, then they would probably price themselves out of the market. Or if a big club like Poole was willing to pay over the odds, well that's up to them. My guess is that for Andersen, Nicholls etc. if they didn't have GP riders to try to keep pace with, it would actually mean they would not have to spend so much on tuning to compete. That effect would also trickle down. Riders would not have to invest so much just to try and keep pace with Ward/Woffinden etc.

 

Secondly, without GP riders, it would hugely reduce the need for guest riders and rider replacement which so infuriate the fans. Currently there are a minimum of 13 weekends during our summer season where GP riders' priorities are elsewhere. That's pretty much half of the season. In an ideal world, speedway in Britain would run on one night. But for plenty of reasons that isn't going to work in this country. So, we have to give the clubs who are best placed to run their business on a Friday or Saturday the freedom to know that they will have access to the same pool of 175 riders (based on 25 league clubs) that any club that prefers to run on a Monday or Wednesday does. That would help their own marketing and would also help the credibility of the league.

 

Finally, I think if some riders were given the choice of British League or GP there are several who would plump for the league. Chris Harris and Kenneth Bjerre are two international standard riders whose World Championship ambitions have realistically passed them by. They would think seriously about whether they would continue with the GP given the choice. A new league structure that combined PL and EL riders across North and South Divisions would make for more compact and solid teams and make for more competitive league speedway. As it stands, EL teams are this weird mix of GP superstar, sprinkling of PL standard riders and NL novices and it makes for a pretty poor spectacle.

 

The major issue with my suggestion is the EL clubs who have invested heavily in GP riders and their assets can no longer ride for them. I can empathise with them having a complaint about that and I'm sure a vocal minority would be against the idea. Let's face it, even millionaires are the most voiciferous to complain about tax rises. But this is about the health of the sport as a whole. I'd suggest to sweeten the pill, clubs in this position are given a favourable allocation of big meetings in the early years to compensate for any losses on their investment.

Edited August 22, 2014 by falcace

[ch958]

Falcace what you say is bold and i agree with you but i don't think there is the courage and vision amongst promoters to carry this out.

 

this is another reason why an independent body is needed to imlplement an overall strategy to take the sport forward without the self interest (quite understandable) of individual promoters.

 

I myself believe a credible league structure is far more important than big names and in any case as someone posted elsewhere they can always be invited to open meetings, test matches, etc

 

you can reply with as many negative jibes as you like but unless you can come up with a better, WORKABLE plan....

[orion]

Fine. It's now pretty clear you don't have the attention span to read or understand my posts on this topic. Fair enough. You still haven't given us any facts and haven't been able to provide your own model for the future. It's clear to see neither are forthcoming. Your contribution has been poor on information, but excellent on entertainment value - I'll give you that.

 

For those who have the capacity to grasp the issues, I'll explain further why I think why League Speedway should go without GP riders.

 

Firstly, it's about reducing costs. I don't believe top dollar riders are justifying their fees to league speedway. I also don't think the second tier of riders..Andersen etc. would suddenly start asking ridiculous fees. If they did, then they would probably price themselves out of the market. Or if a big club like Poole was willing to pay over the odds, well that's up to them. My guess is that for Andersen, Nicholls etc. if they didn't have GP riders to try to keep pace with, it would actually mean they would not have to spend so much on tuning to compete. That effect would also trickle down. Riders would not have to invest so much just to try and keep pace with Ward/Woffinden etc.

 

Secondly, without GP riders, it would hugely reduce the need for guest riders and rider replacement which so infuriate the fans. Currently there are a minimum of 13 weekends during our summer season where GP riders' priorities are elsewhere. That's pretty much half of the season. In an ideal world, speedway in Britain would run on one night. But for plenty of reasons that isn't going to work in this country. So, we have to give the clubs who are best placed to run their business on a Friday or Saturday the freedom to know that they will have access to the same pool of 175 riders (based on 25 league clubs) that any club that prefers to run on a Monday or Wednesday does. That would help their own marketing and would also help the credibility of the league.

 

Finally, I think if some riders were given the choice of British League or GP there are several who would plump for the league. Chris Harris and Kenneth Bjerre are two international standard riders whose World Championship ambitions have realistically passed them by. They would think seriously about whether they would continue with the GP given the choice. A new league structure that combined PL and EL riders across North and South Divisions would make for more compact and solid teams and make for more competitive league speedway. As it stands, EL teams are this weird mix of GP superstar, sprinkling of PL standard riders and NL novices and it makes for a pretty poor spectacle.

 

The major issue with my suggestion is the EL clubs who have invested heavily in GP riders and their assets can no longer ride for them. I can empathise with them having a complaint about that and I'm sure a vocal minority would be against the idea. Let's face it, even millionaires are the most voiciferous to complain about tax rises. But this is about the health of the sport as a whole. I'd suggest to sweeten the pill, clubs in this position are given a favourable allocation of big meetings in the early years to compensate for any losses on their investment.

Not at all ..you ask me for examples and facts and I gave you them and then you made a statement that back them up about emil . Yore vision is a vision of the past I guess you miss out bringing back the golden helmet midland cup etc / your post is bound to be liked by the standard 70's and 80's fans and says it all really .

 

The best bit of course is thinking that Hans etc are all going to give up Poland , Sweden ,Euro champs Denmark etc and also take a pay cut to ride in the Uk north and south league ...what world are you in ? . As for Test matches they died a death years ago as fans and riders don't want them .

Edited August 22, 2014 by orion

[moxey63]

Hans Andersen probably wouldn't give up his other commitments to race over here... and over here only. But that is where the freedom of employment would come in - foreigners would be offered places,and it would be upto them whether to take them or not.

 

Any Dane or Swede, for example, that doesn't accept Britain, well... doesn't it give chances to Brits further down? Aren't fans sometimes heard complaining about the lack of Brit opportunities and the amount of foreign riders over here.

 

Airfares reduced, fans perhaps latching on that it's local riders riding for local teams.

 

I know a bit simple.. but these are all only ideas.

 

As for Test Matches... I think they have lived their day. However, who'd have ever thought talent shows, Strictly Come Dancing etc, would ever be so popular again on TV?

 

Everything comes round again.

 

Never say never.

[Crump99]

The best bit of course is thinking that Hans etc are all going to give up Poland , Sweden ,Euro champs Denmark etc and also take a pay cut to ride in the Uk north and south league ...what world are you in ? . As for Test matches they died a death years ago as fans and riders don't want them .

 

Must say that I struggled with those two. As for giving GP riders some extra earning or testing time. I wouldn't be interested, novelty or not, which'll soon wear off anyway.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Crump99

[marko]

The best thing that can happen to the sport in general is for everyone to stop attending, the promoters work out they can no longer keep their little toy going without the fans and either start listening too them or give it up in which case the fans on mass can club together and run the operation themselves similar to what was done on the Isle of Wright, and what has also been repeated at some clubs in non league football, it does not have to have the top expensive riders, speedway is speedway, credibility and legitimacy is far more important and frankly this is what the sport has had driven out of it by the current crop of idiots who run it, yes i called you idiots, what you going to do? ban me from attending your track? i could not give a watsit, i stopped attending months ago but i am buggered if i am going sit back, keep quiet and let you ruin something i once loved to the point i eat, drank and slept speedway and would drive my car in all weathers in the faintest of hopes i might see some racing.

The clubs don't belong to the promoters, they belong to us the fans, and we as fans deserve a whole lot better!

 

Some promoters were indeed once fans themselves or at least claimed to be but they seemed to have forgotten about that and now treat people once their equals with utter contempt.

 

People will say how can this work? well every track has at least 500 really really skin deep hardcore fans, if 500 can donate £100 as a sort of shareholding stake per year then that's 50k a season, surely enough to run something no matter how basic.

[TheReturn]

It's funny I keep seeing this thread title at the top of the page, and I keep saying the same 'what future?'!

[The White Knight]

It's funny I keep seeing this thread title at the top of the page, and I keep saying the same 'what future?'!

Only problem is, it isn't funny - BUT - I know EXACTLY what you mean.

[fatface]

Not at all ..you ask me for examples and facts and I gave you them and then you made a statement that back them up about emil . Yore vision is a vision of the past I guess you miss out bringing back the golden helmet midland cup etc / your post is bound to be liked by the standard 70's and 80's fans and says it all really .

 

The best bit of course is thinking that Hans etc are all going to give up Poland , Sweden ,Euro champs Denmark etc and also take a pay cut to ride in the Uk north and south league ...what world are you in ? . As for Test matches they died a death years ago as fans and riders don't want them .

Again, unable to read or understand my posts.

 

Still no facts. The nearest you have got is "around 400 more people" and "crowds cut in half". When I have challenged you to back this up with evidence you haven't done that. You stated that having no GP riders would cut crowds in half. Let me try again in plain English... Have Ipswich's crowds halved since they dropped from EL to PL? Yes or no. Is this question simple enough or should I dumb it down a little? Similarly have Leicester's and Birmingham's crowds doubled now they have the luxury of seeing GP riders? Yes or no. Lets have your answers on these very simple questions and see if they support your sweeping "cut in half" statement.

 

Not sure why you are rambling about Golden Helmet or Midland Cup. Personally, I think they are meaningless and no-one but you has mentioned them. Really not sure why.

 

Also, who said Hans Andersen has to give up Sweden, Poland, etc? Wasn't me. Wasn't anybody. My position is that Britain should not employ GP riders as I feel they have too many higher priority commitents away from Britain and leave the public here short-changed. I think my position is clear enough. Most have grasped it and plenty have agreed. Now, if there's anything that you are still struggling with, please point it out and I'll walk you through it very slowly.

Edited August 22, 2014 by falcace

[moxey63]

I'm recently an addition to team Moxey/Oldace, as a Belle Vue supporter since my first meeting in 1973 as a 10 year old.

I had started to become a bit disheartened with the sport over the last 4/5 years and decided that the last meeting against Poole last season was the final straw. Even though I thought 'that's it now' after the Poole meet I still had thoughts of well maybe 1 more chance etc but the the fast track reserve rule was announced and that's what stopped me from renewing my season ticket.

It's not just me though that hasn't renewed the ST it's my 2sons and daughter along with her boyfriend so 5 in all plus some weeks my grand children would come too. There's many a time it's been 3 cars needed to go to Kirky Lane but none of us has been to a single match this season. The sad part too is I haven't missed going either and wonder if I will bother again now.

 

 

Speedway fans are the most loyal sports fans. They get more kicks than an old dog and still go back for more. They defend speedway to the hilt, but then something begins to click and wears them out.

 

As a contributor the the BV prog, I didn't pay to get in to watch my speedway.

 

But, the warning for promoters...II had stopped attending even though it was costing me not a two-bob note. A fan of 30 years had lost his love of the sport.

 

I even told the programme bloke, that I wouldn't be going for the remainder of the season but would still write the piece and see how I felt the following season. I told him I was disillusioned.

 

I didn't attend the opening few matches but still posted my copy.

 

My not attending meant another two - who used to pay - also stopped attending. One was my brother - a fan since 1980 - the other was a neighbour, a returnee in 1993 and rarely missed a match.

 

John44's post is excellent. You have to think a lot of the crowd may have gone... because groups have stopped attending as a night out. Like myself and John44 - one or two decided to stop going, and so the remainder decided that was it..

 

Sadly - haven't missed going one bit.

 

Speedway has noticed my absence, as I didn't pay... but how long can it shrug its shoulders at other diehards choosing to walk the plank?

 

Last year I really enjoyed my Buxton trip - the first meeting in seven years - and understand why speedway is special But I don't see me going every week I think you can go out of habit, fans frightened to miss a match because their run will end and they can't say they've not missed a match since....

 

My brother was the same. Before turning into an ex-attendee, he had missed one match since 1989, missing that because of a mistake.

 

One match missed at Kirkmanshulme Lane in almost 20 years.. and he gave it up as well, had been wanting to for years but was afraid it would spoil the groups involvement.

 

Like me, he was mostly disillusion by the rules etc, not the racing.

 

I am truly in the belief, that It is only a matter of time before the next fans ponder on whether to join me, OldAce and Johnn 44 as fans that used to attend, thought it was for life, stopped going... and haven't missed it one jot.

 

It is a sad state of affairs.

Edited August 22, 2014 by moxey63

[orion]

Again, unable to read or understand my posts.

 

Still no facts. The nearest you have got is "around 400 more people" and "crowds cut in half". When I have challenged you to back this up with evidence you haven't done that. You stated that having no GP riders would cut crowds in half. Let me try again in plain English... Have Ipswich's crowds halved since they dropped from EL to PL? Yes or no. Is this question simple enough or should I dumb it down a little? Similarly have Leicester's and Birmingham's crowds doubled now they have the luxury of seeing GP riders? Yes or no. Lets have your answers on these very simple questions and see if they support your sweeping "cut in half" statement.

 

Not sure why you are rambling about Golden Helmet or Midland Cup. Personally, I think they are meaningless and no-one but you has mentioned them. Really not sure why.

 

Also, who said Hans Andersen has to give up Sweden, Poland, etc? Wasn't me. Wasn't anybody. My position is that Britain should not employ GP riders as I feel they have too many higher priority commitents away from Britain and leave the public here short-changed. I think my position is clear enough. Most have grasped it and plenty have agreed. Now, if there's anything that you are still struggling with, please point it out and I'll walk you through it very slowly.

Yet again one of the facts was about Emil when he was brought in at Cov the crowds went up ...not only is it fact you have agreed with it and have said yourself "Of course Emil brought crowds in ...so not sure want you want ? Do Poole put on about 400 people when they are town ? seeing I go and you don't I would yet again that's a fact .

 

As for Andersen you said we will be able to retain the likes of him to the league ..so explain to us how in a north and south league running 7 days a week with lower pay how he or his like would or want to be retained ?

Edited August 22, 2014 by orion

[cowboy cookie returns?]

I am not sure how many extra bums on seats the big guns bring in but the big problem is that in the last 20 years I would say that crowds have halved using Ipswich as my guide.

[stratton]

Yet again an untrue statement certain teams will always be able to afford certain riders due there income . Poole are able to pay the likes of Ward and Holder and still make a profit while Glasgow and Boro can't afford to pay anyone who are on much lower pay .

Do PL clubs get a dime from sky? do they have a safety net?

Yet again an untrue statement certain teams will always be able to afford certain riders due there income . Poole are able to pay the likes of Ward and Holder and still make a profit while Glasgow and Boro can't afford to pay anyone who are on much lower pay .

Do PL clubs get a dime from sky? do they have a safety net?

The examples you have chosen are completely unrepresentive of a typical speedway club in the UK. Poole are far and away the best supported and most successful club of the modern era. Last year they lost Chris Holder and drafted in Greg Hancock - what other club in Britain can do that? The others you mention have traditionally struggled. To base a model on the future of British Speedway on any of these clubs would be rather stupid.

It has to be based on the vast bulk of clubs that operate somewehere in the middle. Speedway clubs who do a decent job in their area, have a small, but loyal following and are hovvering around breaking even each year, perhaps making a profit or a small loss. It doesn't seem like you have a coherent plan. I'll have a go...

BASIC MODEL

No GP riders, no paying air fares

Combine EL and PL and split North and South

North and South League winners and runners-up into final four play-offs and final

KO Cup competition with open draw from all North and South clubs

Reintroduction of Test Series to be spread around tracks (including GP riders). I'd favour a five test GB v AUS

Riders Championship to feature semis and final (three meetings)

Pairs and Fours to be retained

Option for each club to stage major individual meetings featuring GP riders, eg. Blue Riband, 16 lapper

 

BENEFITS

Saved costs on GP riders

Less travel for riders and supporters

Reviving traditional rivalries, Ips v KL, BV v Sheff, Rye v Lakeside, perhaps even starting some new ones, Poole v Somerset

Chance to see GP riders at Tests/Big Individual meetings where it would actually be a treat rather than same old

Still retain high quality riders like Andersen, Karlsson, B Pedersen, Watt, Schlein, Nicholls

Riders Championship not decimated by GP drop-outs

Orion this post exposes you to be honest,Poole as a example get real a beautiful place an awesome destination and they have always been well supported why would you include them in your arguement.

[spin king]

The best thing that can happen to the sport in general is for everyone to stop attending, the promoters work out they can no longer keep their little toy going without the fans and either start listening too them or give it up in which case the fans on mass can club together and run the operation themselves similar to what was done on the Isle of Wright, and what has also been repeated at some clubs in non league football, it does not have to have the top expensive riders, speedway is speedway, credibility and legitimacy is far more important and frankly this is what the sport has had driven out of it by the current crop of idiots who run it, yes i called you idiots, what you going to do? ban me from attending your track? i could not give a watsit, i stopped attending months ago but i am buggered if i am going sit back, keep quiet and let you ruin something i once loved to the point i eat, drank and slept speedway and would drive my car in all weathers in the faintest of hopes i might see some racing.

The clubs don't belong to the promoters, they belong to us the fans, and we as fans deserve a whole lot better!

 

Some promoters were indeed once fans themselves or at least claimed to be but they seemed to have forgotten about that and now treat people once their equals with utter contempt.

 

People will say how can this work? well every track has at least 500 really really skin deep hardcore fans, if 500 can donate £100 as a sort of shareholding stake per year then that's 50k a season, surely enough to run something no matter how basic.

Here we go again someone else asking or suggesting that everyone should boycott speedway meetings.

 

I am still waiting for some from the boycott brigade to tell me why I should stop going to see my team who race in the Premier League because basically the Elite League is in a mess.

 

Sorry I am sympathetic to fans who support Elite League speedway clubs, but at the end of the day I am reasonably happy where the Premier League is concerned.

 

The Promoters of the Elite League need to change things radically, they need to understand the successful and top riders and get in line with modern day speedway.

 

Maybe just maybe they should listen to our present modern day current World Champion and get their heads out of the sand.

 

Because if they don't change their ways then they run the risk of running the league into the ground.

 

Like in any business if you don't move with the times eventually you will go under.

[orion]

Do PL clubs get a dime from sky? do they have a safety net?

Do PL clubs get a dime from sky? do they have a safety net?Orion this post exposes you to be honest,Poole as a example get real a beautiful place an awesome destination and they have always been well supported why would you include them in your arguement I think your post exposes you as Poole have not always been a well supported as any speedway fan will tell you .

 

Does it ? I think it exposes you as Poole have not always been well supported as any speedway fan will tell you . The club used to be dump but as now risen to be the best club and best supported club in the uk ...I would say it would the best example you can have of what a club at speedway as a whole could do if run well .

Edited August 22, 2014 by orion

[The White Knight]

 

Does it ? I think it exposes you as Poole have not always been well supported as any speedway fan will tell you . The club used to be dump but as now risen to be the best club and best supported club in the uk ...I would say it would the best example you can have of what a club at speedway as a whole could do if run well .

Trouble is orion - you may or may not be right.

 

But being the best run, most financially well off and best supported Club in the WORLD is not much good if everybody else in the League has gone bust.

 

Put simply - you cannot have a League with only ONE Team in it.