The Future Of The Elite League

[orion]

The old tac sub rule allows a team to actually USE tactics whereas the new 'Joker' rule does not as you may not be able to hit back immediately and have to wait until you have someone who can use the DP rule and by then be further adrift.

Tams like Poole who 3 heat leaders have an advantage as they generally can bring in someone almost at once.

The old rule worked but the new one does not so the argument favours the old rule.

Too many teams disadvantaged by the Joker rule whilst the tac sub rule gave teams options. Whether they took them or not is a different story

Sorry in what way did the old rule work ? your telling me that teams with 3 heat leaders in the old days never had a massive advantage when it came using tac subs ? jesus youcould even used double tac sub in heat 8 ! the bottom line and the main point is that the old sub rule gave out more false results and that what always make it more crazy and unfair .

Edited August 17, 2014 by orion

[moxey63]

The Tactical Substitute rule was everything it said on the tin... it gave team managers ample opportunity to use their common sense at throwing in their best riders, onform men when the opportunity arose. It kept even the most one-sided match interesting.

 

On the other hand, the Joker is complete opposite. Usually it depends on who's programmed in the heat as to whether it is actually worth putting a Black and White colour onto a rider's nog. Sometimes your best rider isn't in for another couple of heats, when you need to make the switch straight away. The rule has taken away some of the life from many a match, and I noticed this when I used to attend.

 

The Golden Double rule rarely pumps up the crowd with the anticipation of the Tac Subs. To help save money by ditching the TS, I'm guessing many a fan has stopped attending - not because of simply the racing, but because the direction many matches is going is simply too predictable.

 

As one fan stated, because a top rider was shoved into a certain heat against your second strings, it didn't make it a walkover. In fact, you used to feel proud when you middle-order put one over the opposing team's star introduction.

 

The Golden Double makes speedway a kid's game, a have-two rolls of the dice sort of thing

 

The TS was... well, it was tactical. It was simply more grown up... not X-Factor or The Gladiators stuff.

 

Just my opinion folks!

 

I have to wonder sometimes why managers exist these days, as there is only so much freedom they have during a match.

Edited August 17, 2014 by moxey63

[pandorum]

Sorry in what way did the old rule work ? your telling me that teams with 3 heat leaders in the old days never had a massive advantage when it came using tac subs ? jesus youcould even used double tac sub in heat 8 ! the bottom line and the main point is that the old sub rule gave out more false results and that what always make it more crazy and unfair .

It worked in that it allowed a team a tactical option options straight away to fight back from 6 points.

Team strengths are another argument and that has always been something speedway has never been able to address.

There will always be strong teams and weak teams.

To be honest it allowed a poor team to compete a bit against a good team.

Of course it did not always work. But what rule ever does?

 

The TR nowadays doesn't allow tactics unless you have someone available you are up the creek and are probably gonna go further behind.

The fact the best leagues in the world use it says it all really.

I have not seen anyone pushing to use the TR in any of the top leagues.

 

As one fan stated, because a top rider was shoved into a certain heat against your second strings, it didn't make it a walkover. In fact, you used to feel proud when you middle-order put one over the opposing team's star introduction.

 

 

Seen that happen so many times. Even used to feel proud when it was done to my team

Now ..........................

[ColinMills]

think the top heavy sides with 3 heat leaders it helped, but imo, the most succesful sides have always been sides built that way....

[orion]

The Tactical Substitute rule was everything it said on the tin... it gave team managers ample opportunity to use their common sense at throwing in their best riders, onform men when the opportunity arose. It kept even the most one-sided match interesting.

 

On the other hand, the Joker is complete opposite. Usually it depends on who's programmed in the heat as to whether it is actually worth putting a Black and White colour onto a rider's nog. Sometimes your best rider isn't in for another couple of heats, when you need to make the switch straight away. The rule has taken away some of the life from many a match, and I noticed this when I used to attend.

 

The Golden Double rule rarely pumps up the crowd with the anticipation of the Tac Subs. To help save money by ditching the TS, I'm guessing many a fan has stopped attending - not because of simply the racing, but because the direction many matches is going is simply too predictable.

 

As one fan stated, because a top rider was shoved into a certain heat against your second strings, it didn't make it a walkover. In fact, you used to feel proud when you middle-order put one over the opposing team's star introduction.

 

The Golden Double makes speedway a kid's game, a have-two rolls of the dice sort of thing

 

The TS was... well, it was tactical. It was simply more grown up... not X-Factor or The Gladiators stuff.

 

Just my opinion folks!

 

I have to wonder sometimes why managers exist these days, as there is only so much freedom they have during a match.

But people are on about crazy rules and the giving it as one of the reasons they go on anyone ..as I said you can't get a rule that is more crazy rule than tac subs as it gave out false results .

 

The bottom line it's just old fans who moan about anything new and just pine for anything from when they used to go .it has liitle do with being unfair or crazy as your post shows . You got to laugh the same people who moan about the jokers in the world cup tend to be the same people who thought the tac sub was great

[ColinMills]

double points is obviously crazy. hence the word joker!

[orion]

double points is obviously crazy. hence the word joker!

Double points in the uk does not use any joker thou .

[moxey63]

But people are on about crazy rules and the giving it as one of the reasons they go on anyone ..as I said you can't get a rule that is more crazy rule than tac subs as it gave out false results .

 

The bottom line it's just old fans who moan about anything new and just pine for anything from when they used to go .it has liitle do with being unfair or crazy as your post shows . You got to laugh the same people who moan about the jokers in the world cup tend to be the same people who thought the tac sub was great

 

 

How can it give out false results, the old tac sub, and yet the Golden Double doesn't (which ignores speedway's life-long history of 3,2,1 scoring system... simply for the benefit of a bit of fake tan and the hope that no-one notices it washes off).

 

How can you defend a rule that in one fell swoop allows you to get a 7-point pull back, allows team mates to throw the race to do this (allowing the B/W guy to win, hence full 6 points)?

 

Yes, old fans that don't go anymore will probably use this as one of the reasons, getting rid of the TS... but why shouldn't they? Why should they continue to follow a sport that has sold out part of its scoring system, just to hoodwink people that match scorelines can still be attractive, if a little silly-like.

 

And don't get me going on the SWC Joker... with riders "racing" each other as slowly as possible - Crump and Pedersen - so their country can parade a funny card. All we need is Ant and Dec.

 

You stop believing in a sport when the part of the substance it once had is replaced by a cheap novelty move.

 

Shame on you.

Edited August 17, 2014 by moxey63

[pandorum]

But people are on about crazy rules and the giving it as one of the reasons they go on anyone ..as I said you can't get a rule that is more crazy rule than tac subs as it gave out false results .

 

The bottom line it's just old fans who moan about anything new and just pine for anything from when they used to go .it has liitle do with being unfair or crazy as your post shows . You got to laugh the same people who moan about the jokers in the world cup tend to be the same people who thought the tac sub was great

I like the SWC Joker as it makes the thing very exciting but do not like the idea in traditional league racing although Denmark use both and I can't say I am ready to storm the Danish embassy or give up bacon

Generalisations like yours are simply something stupid people do to avoid any real thinking

And let's face it plenty slowed down in the old system to allow them a TS in the next heat. Sport is full of gamesmanship

Edited August 17, 2014 by pandorum

[ColinMills]

im 46, if that class me as old, so be it..the word "tactical substitution" is clearly better than the word "joker"..moxey post was spot on......as us "old" ones think everything was better, well maybe it was? if having 7 riders in a team that dont float about everyday is "old" i prefer that..if having individual leathers is "old" i prefer that too. if having the top team champions, guilty yet again!.....one thing i am sure about, is the fact speedway WAS healthy, it WAS more full on the terraces, and it WASNT such a laughing stock it now is

[moxey63]

Come on... liking the Joker because it makes the thing exciting!

 

What about four guys on brake-less speedway bikes, racing for four laps within inches of each other?

 

Speedway's Golden Double and Joker... well, it's like vote-rigging in those tacky gameshows, just so we get a closely contested finale. It's the happy-hour in the pub, where the set-price is put to one side so we can all get giddy.

 

It keeps the audience interested... but the fulfillment of a close-battle soon erodes.

 

A true sport, a serious one... well chaps, does it need novelty values?

Edited August 17, 2014 by moxey63

[orion]

How can it give out false results, the old tac sub, and yet the Golden Double doesn't (which ignores speedway's life-long history of 3,2,1 scoring system... simply for the benefit of a bit of fake tan and the hope that no-one notices it washes off).

 

How can you defend a rule that in one fell swoop allows you to get a 7-point pull back, allows team mates to throw the race to do this (allowing the B/W guy to win, hence full 6 points)?

 

Yes, old fans that don't go anymore will probably use this as one of the reasons, getting rid of the TS... but why shouldn't they? Why should they continue to follow a sport that has sold out part of its scoring system, just to hoodwink people that match scorelines can still be attractive, if a little silly-like.

 

And don't get me going on the SWC Joker... with riders "racing" each other as slowly as possible - Crump and Pedersen - so their country can parade a funny card. All we need is Ant and Dec.

 

You stop believing in a sport when the part of the substance it once had is replaced by a cheap novelty move.

 

Shame on you.

I never defended the new rule and never said that it never gave out false results . My point was quite clear if you moan about silly rules then don't defend the old tac sub rule .

well, it's like vote-rigging in those tacky gameshows, just so we get a closely contested finale. It's the happy-hour in the pub, where the set-price is put to one side

So what do you think the old tac sub rule did ? it gave you a closely contested finale ..Yet again thou because it was in the older days you found it ok ?

[moxey63]

I never defended the new rule and never said that it never gave out false results . My point was quite clear if you moan about silly rules then don't defend the old tac sub rule .

 

 

So, tell me this... do you think it frustrating, the double-dildo, is silly and wrecks with the statistical side of the sport.

 

A real sport, a genuine product has no need to alter the scoring... when the crowd needs keeping awake.

 

There was no fiddling with the old tac sub, it was always the same - 3,2,1. It wasn't called for, needing the nominated rider to have to finsih ahead of his partner, just to get full points. That is silly and is staged-managed speedway.

 

It doesn't even try to kid anyone...

Edited August 17, 2014 by moxey63

[ColinMills]

I never defended the new rule and never said that it never gave out false results . My point was quite clear if you moan about silly rules then don't defend the old tac sub rule .

 

So what do you think the old tac sub rule did ? it gave you a closely contested finale ..Yet again thou because it was in the older days you found it ok ?

it never gave closer scores, top teams like witches in 75/76 were still trouncing everyone, had loads of 51.27 scorelines. what it did do, was give managers far more options and to be far more tactical. yes ht8 was always the easy choice, but as i said before, mike lanham would often pop out and create magical moment beatin a ht leader

[moxey63]

The Tac Sub allowed maximum use of your force, long as it was after heat 4 and your were 6 down; the GD, on the other hand, allows you to use your might and muscle, but only if the deficit falls at the correct time of your best rider being scheduled. You could go enough behind, and not have a decent rider in for another three heats! Therefore, a team boss will probably throw his black and white choice on a rider who has little chance of pulling it off.

[orion]

So, tell me this... do you think it frustrating, the double-dildo, is silly and wrecks with the statistical side of the sport.

 

A real sport, a genuine product has no need to alter the scoring... when the crowd needs keeping awake.

 

There was no fiddling with the old tac sub, it was always the same - 3,2,1. It wasn't called for, needing the nominated rider to have to finsih ahead of his partner, just to get full points. That is silly and is staged-managed speedway.

 

It doesn't even try to kid anyone...

To be fair I am a fan of the old tac rule and the new double points rule I think speedway need them to make the match more exciteing but not the World cup joker as people getting beat on purpose is just to much .

 

Scoring double points is no more mickey mouse that being to able to replace your number 7 with a world champion in heat 8 .

[ColinMills]

The Tac Sub allowed maximum use of your force, long as it was after heat 4 and your were 6 down; the GD, on the other hand, allows you to use your might and muscle, but only if the deficit falls at the correct time of your best rider being scheduled. You could go enough behind, and not have a decent rider in for another three heats! Therefore, a team boss will probably throw his black and white choice on a rider who has little chance of pulling it off.

spot on....anybody could manage nowadays, as moxey says, it has to fall at the right time now, theres no tactics in that

[orion]

The Tac Sub allowed maximum use of your force, long as it was after heat 4 and your were 6 down; the GD, on the other hand, allows you to use your might and muscle, but only if the deficit falls at the correct time of your best rider being scheduled. You could go enough behind, and not have a decent rider in for another three heats! Therefore, a team boss will probably throw his black and white choice on a rider who has little chance of pulling it off.

Yet again what you say has nothing to do with the point I am making .Either you like a rule that gives us false results or you don't the bottom line both rules are unfair to the other side who are winning fair and square .

it never gave closer scores, top teams like witches in 75/76 were still trouncing everyone, had loads of 51.27 scorelines. what it did do, was give managers far more options and to be far more tactical. yes ht8 was always the easy choice, but as i said before, mike lanham would often pop out and create magical moment beatin a ht leader

What do you mean it never gave closer scores ? are you saying there was not one match in the history of speedway that a tac sub never made a score closer ? the idea of any tac /joker or double points is to make a match more closer of course that's not say that some teams are going to still win by 25-30 points does it ?

Edited August 17, 2014 by orion

[moxey63]

Yet again what you say has nothing to do with the point I am making .Either you like a rule that gives us false results or you don't the bottom line both rules are unfair to the other side who are winning fair and square .

 

False results?

 

If the Golden Double points are fair, then why aren't they included in rider averages?

 

Tac Sub points were always included in rider scores.

 

No one will ever tell me TS was unfair; but I have told myself, surely the GD is silly and bizarre..

 

As a fan brought up on one, I can't take the GD (a bloke dressed as a woman rule) all that seriously... and that's why I stopped believing in speedway.

 

You will have your points to make; I have mine.

 

Just that I'm the one who stays at home... whereas you are happy... with that fella dressed in female attire.

 

It aint real.

Edited August 17, 2014 by moxey63

[orion]

False results?

 

If the Golden Double points are fair, then why aren't they included in rider averages?

 

Tac Sub points were always included in rider scores.

 

No one will ever tell me TS was unfair; but I have told myself, surely the GD is silly and bizarre..

 

As a fan brought up on one, I can't take the GD (a bloke dressed as a woman rule) all that seriously... and that's why I stopped believing in speedway.

 

You will have your points to make; I have mine.

 

Just that I'm the one who stays at home... whereas you are happy... with that fella dressed in female attire.

 

It aint real.

Yet again I never said the new rule was fair . I told you 3 times now. How you can say the old rule was fair when one sides riders could have more rides than the other side is amazing

Edited August 17, 2014 by orion