Bruiser McHuge Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 I see Tai Woffinden is publicly calling for Elite League teams to be allowed to sign 2 number 1 riders next season so they can job share to ease the number of meetings.. I cannot see how the teams can afford to do this...they can barely afford one top GP standard rider let alone two....I'm sure both would want a signing on fee and a retainer and probably extra bikes ready for a short notice call...a top rider isn't going to sign as a sharing number 1 for nothing when he is not riding Does anybody think Tai's idea has any chance of coming in ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 Are you really confident making that statement. Funny how you mention Nick Morris, was that not the Nick Morris informed Swindon that he wanted to ride for Sheffield after he initially lost his place at Somerset which effectively meant that he would not be riding for Swindon if he did that. Absolutely confident. The PL & EL use many of the same riders, doesn't mean either is propping the other up. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 20, 2014 Report Share Posted August 20, 2014 EL and PL need one another to exist in their present state. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I believe Tai Woffinden's exhaustion and call for a reduction in EL fixtures is only as a result of his travelling from Poland and Sweden. There is no evidence he feels as tired on his journey - from Britain - to those two leagues. Therefore, perhaps an idea to help Tai and those fellow riders who can't stand the rough, bumpy and dangerous road surfaces from their European jaunts to British exploits, is whether they would have any objection to Britain completely making redundant any rider who finds (or has found) these journeys too much in recent years - but may (just may) rethink their ideas and become interested again, if those journeys aren't as many and don't get in the way of their other employment. In a way, Tai and his fellow stars are telling us something we already know - British racing is too much for them and they could do without it. To me anyway, that signifies that perhaps they aren't really enjoying their racing over here and, to be brutal, Britain is just a pain in the arse for them and they are too tired to race, anyway, when they get here. Therefore the actual ingredients of speedway racing, becomes speedway tootling. Tai and his circus of star men believe they are above British racing. It has sunk, not just in fans' opinion, but in the actual star riders we are supposed to support. If riders like Tai are lethargic towards British League, can you really question the fans' passion who hand over a good percentage of their weekly incomes to expect a bit of loyalty? To me, it is something they agreed to in the off-season but becomes a pain in the rear when real interests start from spring onwards. Nobody has the real answers to British speedway's dilemma. You either bow to Tai's plea and cut back on the amount of fixtures; or make do without the so-called big names and take it from there, What is there to lose. Isn't paying riders who earn less, less of a gamble than paying top earners, if the difference in gates isn't that much difference? I haven't the answer. I doubt the promoters do. But it looks set for another winter of wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) When did anyone say things were Brilliant ? i think you got to pretty naïve thou to think the size of the crowd is not effected by the standard of the side or riders you are facing . Maybe we get 400 more fans every time Poole are in town because people like the colour blue . Thank god someone is bringing some real clarity to this debate. "Maybe 400" is the exact science we need to cut through the fog of opinions. Well done. However, there may be other factors in the very exact and unquestionable numbers you have so brilliantly brought to the table. Perhaps Poole being the the best supported club and also the closest of Swindon's Elite League rivals might also have a slight influence on the crowd. Certainly when I followed Exeter their best crowds were always Poole (even when they were no great shakes) and when I followed Edinburgh their best crowds were comfortably Glasgow. See a pattern at all? How many more pile through the turnstiles for Tai Woffinden? Probably 500? Roughly 700? I wonder if anyone else can match Orion's precise insight into how crowds swell so much when top riders come to town. Maybe Coventry might be persuaded to bring Emil Sayfutdinov back? Maybe Ipswich will throw caution to the wind, go Elite League again and bring back Jarek Hampel and Tomasz Gollob? Edited August 21, 2014 by falcace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Thank god someone is bringing some real clarity to this debate. "Maybe 400" is the exact science we need to cut through the fog of opinions. Well done. However, there may be other factors in the very exact and unquestionable numbers you have so brilliantly brought to the table. Perhaps Poole being the the best supported club and also the closest of Swindon's Elite League rivals might also have a slight influence on the crowd. Certainly when I followed Exeter their best crowds were always Poole (even when they were no great shakes) and when I followed Edinburgh their best crowds were comfortably Glasgow. See a pattern at all? How many more pile through the turnstiles for Tai Woffinden? Probably 500? Roughly 700? I wonder if anyone else can match Orion's precise insight into how crowds swell so much when top riders come to town. Maybe Coventry might be persuaded to bring Emil Sayfutdinov back? Maybe Ipswich will throw caution to the wind, go Elite League again and bring back Jarek Hampel and Tomasz Gollob? More silly comments ...The fact of the matter no what the numbers a crowd will go up if a better team or riders turn up it's just pure common sense ..A better question to ask cov or ippo fans is do you think more fans would go if Gollob or Emil were in there sides .. of course using your crazy logic that no cares who rides the answer is bound to be no . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I believe Tai Woffinden's exhaustion and call for a reduction in EL fixtures is only as a result of his travelling from Poland and Sweden. There is no evidence he feels as tired on his journey - from Britain - to those two leagues. Therefore, perhaps an idea to help Tai and those fellow riders who can't stand the rough, bumpy and dangerous road surfaces from their European jaunts to British exploits, is whether they would have any objection to Britain completely making redundant any rider who finds (or has found) these journeys too much in recent years - but may (just may) rethink their ideas and become interested again, if those journeys aren't as many and don't get in the way of their other employment. In a way, Tai and his fellow stars are telling us something we already know - British racing is too much for them and they could do without it. To me anyway, that signifies that perhaps they aren't really enjoying their racing over here and, to be brutal, Britain is just a pain in the arse for them and they are too tired to race, anyway, when they get here. Therefore the actual ingredients of speedway racing, becomes speedway tootling. Tai and his circus of star men believe they are above British racing. It has sunk, not just in fans' opinion, but in the actual star riders we are supposed to support. If riders like Tai are lethargic towards British League, can you really question the fans' passion who hand over a good percentage of their weekly incomes to expect a bit of loyalty? I wouldn't be as harsh on Tai as this. I can understand the issues he has. He and the other top riders are just trying to make a decent living in the very short careers they have, which - in a sport like this - could end at any time. Make no mistake, the likes of Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins, Ole Olsen, Hans Nielsen and the rest from the past would have taken a very similar standpoint had they been in the same situation. Today's top riders work hard. Probably harder than riders from any other era when three leagues, GPs and SWC are taken into account. I don't begrudge them trying to earn a decent crust. It's just that they have become unaffordable for Britain. So an amicable parting of the ways is what is needed. At one time, Britain was the epi-centre of World Speedway. To be a full-time, professional, never mind the best in the world, you had to ride in Britain. Simple as that. That's not the case anymore. We can either accept that and work to deliver the best possible league we can given our limited resources. Or we can delude ourselves and continually pump money into top riders and their team of tuners/mechanics at the expense of every other aspect of the speedway meeting experience. More silly comments ...The fact of the matter no what the numbers a crowd will go up if a better team or riders turn up it's just pure common sense ..A better question to ask cov or ippo fans is do you think more fans would go if Gollob or Emil were in there sides .. of course using your crazy logic that no cares who rides the answer is bound to be no . "Fact of the matter" - still no facts "Pure common sense" - wishy washy opinion without any facts to back it u. Again. People care about competitive speedway. The ££££ demanded by Gollob and Sayfutdinov (I'll have a go at the surname you were struggling with) is not justfied by the people through the turnstiles. Go on, have one more go at giving us the facts of the matter. So far you've been completely devoid of facts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 It's just that they have become unaffordable for Britain. So an amicable parting of the ways is what is needed. Yet again an untrue statement certain teams will always be able to afford certain riders due there income . Poole are able to pay the likes of Ward and Holder and still make a profit while Glasgow and Boro can't afford to pay anyone who are on much lower pay . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I wouldn't be as harsh on Tai as this. I can understand the issues he has. He and the other top riders are just trying to make a decent living in the very short careers they have, which - in a sport like this - could end at any time. Make no mistake, the likes of Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins, Ole Olsen, Hans Nielsen and the rest from the past would have taken a very similar standpoint had they been in the same situation. Today's top riders work hard. Probably harder than riders from any other era when three leagues, GPs and SWC are taken into account. I don't begrudge them trying to earn a decent crust. It's just that they have become unaffordable for Britain. So an amicable parting of the ways is what is needed. At one time, Britain was the epi-centre of World Speedway. To be a full-time, professional, never mind the best in the world, you had to ride in Britain. Simple as that. That's not the case anymore. We can either accept that and work to deliver the best possible league we can given our limited resources. Or we can delude ourselves and continually pump money into top riders and their team of tuners/mechanics at the expense of every other aspect of the speedway meeting experience. True. Only the promoters know the true figures, the main ones - just what their incomings and outgoings are. I feel, Tai deserves all the money he can earn, where he can earn it, but I'm not bothered about that. I am concerned with speedway's future, especially over here. With highly-paid tuners etc, all those crash helmets for every colour, professionally printed names on junior riders' vans, probably with two brand new bikes being transported.... it proves too much money's flitted away somewhere. Just going through some old magazines, and I came across a story... Billy Barrett, a young Aussie, had just purchased a set of Bruce Penhall's old leathers to use. There was none of this "I've gotta look good, gotta hold my head up with the youngees, the social media generation". Barrett knew he had to earn money before it could be spent. If there is too much money going out of the sport, it means the riders are having to ask for more from promoters, therefore the fans will have to shell out. I read Jon Armstrong's piece in the Star recently, a rider I recall coming on to the scene in the early-90s. He was using an old banger van to get about and a motor over 10 years old for his speedway career! He had blown away the thoughts of being World Champion years ago and probably getting more enjoyment out of the sport now than ever. Armstong is more of a pattern we should adjust to, I feel, not riders who are immediately handing a dollop of what they've earned over to some tuner etc. Domestic speedway isn't a place for all the razz. Leave that for International racing, where the big sponsors are. League speedway can exist on a shoestring. It has to. Edited August 21, 2014 by moxey63 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Yet again an untrue statement certain teams will always be able to afford certain riders due there income . Poole are able to pay the likes of Ward and Holder and still make a profit while Glasgow and Boro can't afford to pay anyone who are on much lower pay . The examples you have chosen are completely unrepresentive of a typical speedway club in the UK. Poole are far and away the best supported and most successful club of the modern era. Last year they lost Chris Holder and drafted in Greg Hancock - what other club in Britain can do that? The others you mention have traditionally struggled. To base a model on the future of British Speedway on any of these clubs would be rather stupid. It has to be based on the vast bulk of clubs that operate somewehere in the middle. Speedway clubs who do a decent job in their area, have a small, but loyal following and are hovvering around breaking even each year, perhaps making a profit or a small loss. It doesn't seem like you have a coherent plan. I'll have a go... BASIC MODEL No GP riders, no paying air fares Combine EL and PL and split North and South North and South League winners and runners-up into final four play-offs and final KO Cup competition with open draw from all North and South clubs Reintroduction of Test Series to be spread around tracks (including GP riders). I'd favour a five test GB v AUS Riders Championship to feature semis and final (three meetings) Pairs and Fours to be retained Option for each club to stage major individual meetings featuring GP riders, eg. Blue Riband, 16 lapper BENEFITS Saved costs on GP riders Less travel for riders and supporters Reviving traditional rivalries, Ips v KL, BV v Sheff, Rye v Lakeside, perhaps even starting some new ones, Poole v Somerset Chance to see GP riders at Tests/Big Individual meetings where it would actually be a treat rather than same old Still retain high quality riders like Andersen, Karlsson, B Pedersen, Watt, Schlein, Nicholls Riders Championship not decimated by GP drop-outs Edited August 21, 2014 by falcace 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxey63 Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) It is basically about housekeeping. Do you go into debt and buy the latest tech stuff or get by on tried and trusted items, and wait to be able to afford the hi-end stuff, which will come down in price along the way and be more attainable - or your own finances will be healthier when he time comes. You can spend big on the main men and hope the fans return - or budget for what you can really manage on. Make it a five year plan, just to get speedway's economy back to a stable footing. As Falcace mentioned, each track could put on an old-style individual if wished. Imagine it, Grand Prix stars being invited to take part in various meetings. It'll be like a crowd for the Play-Offs. This way, riders like Tai won't have to race all the time over here. Give the fans a sprinkling of the top lads once in a while. Edited August 21, 2014 by moxey63 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) The examples you have chosen are completely unrepresentive of a typical speedway club in the UK. Poole are far and away the best supported and most successful club of the modern era. Last year they lost Chris Holder and drafted in Greg Hancock - what other club in Britain can do that? The others you mention have traditionally struggled. To base a model on the future of British Speedway on any of these clubs would be rather stupid. It has to be based on the vast bulk of clubs that operate somewehere in the middle. Speedway clubs who do a decent job in their area, have a small, but loyal following and are hovvering around breaking even each year, perhaps making a profit or a small loss. It doesn't seem like you have a coherent plan. I'll have a go... BASIC MODEL No GP riders, no paying air fares Combine EL and PL and split North and South North and South League winners and runners-up into final four play-offs and final Excellent, well thought out Post Falcace. I would just make one change to your Plan. I would have only the TOP TWO of the North/South Sections in the Play Off Final. They have won their Section of the League - they DESERVE to be there on their own. Winner to be overall League Champions. Edited August 21, 2014 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) The examples you have chosen are completely unrepresentive of a typical speedway club in the UK. Poole are far and away the best supported and most successful club of the modern era. Last year they lost Chris Holder and drafted in Greg Hancock - what other club in Britain can do that? There were two. Somebody didn't like that and did their best to alter it! Edited August 21, 2014 by Vincent Blackshadow 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 I wouldn't be as harsh on Tai as this. I can understand the issues he has. He and the other top riders are just trying to make a decent living in the very short careers they have, which - in a sport like this - could end at any time. Make no mistake, the likes of Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins, Ole Olsen, Hans Nielsen and the rest from the past would have taken a very similar standpoint had they been in the same situation. Today's top riders work hard. Probably harder than riders from any other era when three leagues, GPs and SWC are taken into account. I don't begrudge them trying to earn a decent crust. It's just that they have become unaffordable for Britain. So an amicable parting of the ways is what is needed. At one time, Britain was the epi-centre of World Speedway. To be a full-time, professional, never mind the best in the world, you had to ride in Britain. Simple as that. That's not the case anymore. We can either accept that and work to deliver the best possible league we can given our limited resources. Or we can delude ourselves and continually pump money into top riders and their team of tuners/mechanics at the expense of every other aspect of the speedway meeting experience. "Fact of the matter" - still no facts "Pure common sense" - wishy washy opinion without any facts to back it u. Again. People care about competitive speedway. The ££££ demanded by Gollob and Sayfutdinov (I'll have a go at the surname you were struggling with) is not justfied by the people through the turnstiles. Go on, have one more go at giving us the facts of the matter. So far you've been completely devoid of facts. Why are trying to move the goal posts ? the money demanded and if the clubs can afford such riders is another subject all together and one we have already gone over . My reply was to your crazy statement that crowds won't go up no matter what because people don't care who's riding . As for facts you only have to look at the last time Emil rode for cove the crowds went way up home and away I remember the crowd at brum that night etc he was a massive draw . Yet again it's madness to think that crowds would not be bigger if Emil and Gollob were in the el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebv Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 If you get 1000 punters paying 16 to 17 quid you will, after vat, come out with about 13 to 14k with which to pay out all your meeting fixed costs and two meetings worth of riders costs... Say fixed costs are 3k a night for track hire, ref , medical cover etc etc etc and you will have apppox 10k to pay the riders for two meetings or 5k a night.. There will be some sponsor money to add, and some tracks own their own stadia so pay no rentt and get the food and drink take, but they are in the minority.. For most tracks I would suggest this 5k a night is there or thereabouts therefore all teams should be made to spend no more than that if that is all they can afford... I would suggest a good many pay more than this and a good many get a good few less than a 1000 punters a night!!! Total madness paying 2 - 3k a night for a 'superstar' on those figures, even more lunacy if your attendance is below a 1000! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Only the promoters know the finances, whether a one night a week league will work, whether they could afford 2 number ones sharing etc etc, we can have our opinions and ideas but at the end of the day ........... For sure they don't always get it right and/or don't do what we think they should BUT there is only one way we could change things, become promoters ....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwatcher Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 If we had a big league with North South slit with no GP riders people would still come. I see no future for what we are doing now. As stated above, let the big boys race over here but make it worth watching. A a test series of all the top countries and then lets hope that the British lads would then at last be able to start and come to the fore front of world racing. The winner of the N/S split retains the fact that they have won the league. You can still have a knock out compatition for the top 4 teams of each league with the winners of each split then racing in a final showdown. But it still doe's not distact from the fact that they who ever team it was won the top place in thier league not how it is now, where the winner of the play offs win the top place in the EL, stupid idea to me when the winner of the EL races against say the 4th placed team and lose on the day so get nothing for finishing top in the EL in the first palce. Lets get some sense into the whole set up of British speedway so that we can see it surviving for many years to come as it is now we will be lucky to see out another 10 years if that long. The way things are being run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 Only the promoters know the finances, whether a one night a week league will work, whether they could afford 2 number ones sharing etc etc, we can have our opinions and ideas but at the end of the day ........... For sure they don't always get it right and/or don't do what we think they should BUT there is only one way we could change things, become promoters ....... We could try to change things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 The examples you have chosen are completely unrepresentive of a typical speedway club in the UK. Poole are far and away the best supported and most successful club of the modern era. Last year they lost Chris Holder and drafted in Greg Hancock - what other club in Britain can do that? The others you mention have traditionally struggled. To base a model on the future of British Speedway on any of these clubs would be rather stupid. It has to be based on the vast bulk of clubs that operate somewehere in the middle. Speedway clubs who do a decent job in their area, have a small, but loyal following and are hovvering around breaking even each year, perhaps making a profit or a small loss. It doesn't seem like you have a coherent plan. I'll have a go... BASIC MODEL No GP riders, no paying air fares Combine EL and PL and split North and South North and South League winners and runners-up into final four play-offs and final KO Cup competition with open draw from all North and South clubs Reintroduction of Test Series to be spread around tracks (including GP riders). I'd favour a five test GB v AUS Riders Championship to feature semis and final (three meetings) Pairs and Fours to be retained Option for each club to stage major individual meetings featuring GP riders, eg. Blue Riband, 16 lapper BENEFITS Saved costs on GP riders Less travel for riders and supporters Reviving traditional rivalries, Ips v KL, BV v Sheff, Rye v Lakeside, perhaps even starting some new ones, Poole v Somerset Chance to see GP riders at Tests/Big Individual meetings where it would actually be a treat rather than same old Still retain high quality riders like Andersen, Karlsson, B Pedersen, Watt, Schlein, Nicholls Riders Championship not decimated by GP drop-outs You forgot to add in one off world finals and second halfs ...all the above are tired and dated and mostly dead formats that died out years ago . How wold retain Andersen and Pedersen etc ? are going to let them off riding Sweden on Tuesdays Denmark on Wednesdays Euro champ meetings etc etc ...and how would you paid for them with the crowds cut in half ? Love the north and south plan meaning that you would not see some of the riders the whole season . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruiser McHuge Posted August 21, 2014 Report Share Posted August 21, 2014 There is nothing wrong with a club employing a Grand Prix rider if the GP rider actually wants to ride here and does a deal that a club can genuinely afford....to ban them all purely because they are GP riders is just denying the fans any chance of seeing them And if GP riders were banned then riders mentioned like Hans Andersen and the like would just demand more anyway because their value as number 1 riders increases even more....and then if clubs decided the likes of Andersen and the second tier were too expensive you are left with a purely domestic league that some people seem to want but would have little widespread appeal and would definitely ensure England would be in the international wilderness for years to come 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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