orion Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) The British schedule is not unsustainable, it's the jetting off to foreign lands two, three or more times a week that's unsustainable - the answer is riders 100% committed to the UK only Why "of course"? He's hardly a household name outside the speedway fraternity, and I would suggest that virtually all the Coventry supporters there last Friday were at the previous home match, and will be at the next one Over the years I doubt there's been many riders who would add any sizeable numbers to a meeting attendance Sayfutdinov obviously did so, but who before him had the impact a Fundin, Mauger, Craven, Briggs, Gollob, Penhall had? Oh, and I see you changed from "top names" to Stronger sides" - there's a vast difference! So get this right you are saying that if it was known that Zagar was to be replaced by a junior that it would no effect on the crowd ? in the lifetime of Speedway Zagar is a not big name but in the UK as we speak he one of the best riders and one of the biggest draws . Still waiting for your answer about what teams can't ride Home matches on a Monday night . Edited July 21, 2014 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Why? Surely competitive, entertaining racing is what fans want? I'd much rather see a heat with four riders of equal ability, as far as possible, race against each other How many top names, as you call them, do you want to see in each and every meeting? If there's only a couple, then they're unlikely to get much competition during the match for you to marvel at Remember, the top names in general only do four laps in a couple of seconds less than the large majority of riders Perhaps without them, so they can concentrate on earning their zlotys and krona, and avoid unnecessary early morning dashes to Stansted and Luton, there would be closer, thereby more entertaining, racing for UK fans Which part of "most speedway teams only rent the stadia they ride in, so they are restricted when they are available" do you not understand? Which part of every single one of the teams can race on a Monday as an example do you not understand? It's just an excuse of convenience because the existing cartel hasn't the vision to reinvigorate the sport in this country. Theyve been complaining about costs for so long, but to my mind theyve never gone with simple solutions. 6 rider teams, less foreigners - ie only employ the best dont fill teams up with the Skornikis of the world.Team kevlars are a pointless expensive exercise as it's rarely a team without a guest. That's just 3 very basic ideas. Anywway we all know Until the EL is taken over by independent professionals with no self interest it'll never be as succesful as it could or should be. With regards to a single race night, yes it is pretty much impossible but they should try and narrow it to say Mondays and Fridays if possible 3 very basic ideas that would do nothing but worsen the problem. We had one season of 6 rider teams, it was hated by fans. Team kevlars are one of the GOOD things to have happened in speedway. As for your comments about Skornicki... well... words fail me. Not enough to pay their wages seemingly No, not when the league is run in the ramshackle way it is now. Belle Vue were at Brandon last Friday Top name Matej Zagar was in the line up Do you think this added to the attendance numbers? No, fans in the main turned up to a) watch speedway support/follow their team/favourite rider(s) The return of Scott Nicholls may have put a few on the gate I was going to mark this as a like, except I'm not in favour of a squad system, but I do agree with the point about racing being available most days of the week So how many Coventry fans turn up to the Storm NL meetings? After all its speedway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conkers in Gravy Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 The British schedule is not unsustainable, it's the jetting off to foreign lands two, three or more times a week that's unsustainable - the answer is riders 100% committed to the UK only The schedule is unsustainable if you want to retain a reasonable class of professional league. It's not just GP riders who jet in and out of Britain each week. If you deny riders the chance to earn a reasonable living, the best you can hope for is they'll go part time and we'll end up with league racing that's on a par with Germany or the Czech Republic. It will also effect the number of British riders coming through the system. It's no coincidence that as the EL has been watered down, so British performances have suffered (Woffinden excepted). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 We can go round the houses forever on this I'd love the el to be up there with Swedish and Polish leagues but there isn't the interest in this country at least not at the same level as those countries It would be a massive financial gamble to push the boat out and make the el truly elite and I don't think it's going to happen to be honest Let's be honest who is going to risk hundreds of thousands on such a venture Therefore we need a plan b Mine is to run at an affordable level for 20 or so clubs to form a single division That's my contribution to this debate. Night night all! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Therefore we need a plan b Mine is to run at an affordable level for 20 or so clubs to form a single division Plan b has already been done ...as has been said it never worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch958 Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Plan b has already been done ...as has been said it never worked Not properly it hasn't it worked in 1965 and could work if done properly not easy I know 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 We can go round the houses forever on this I'd love the el to be up there with Swedish and Polish leagues but there isn't the interest in this country at least not at the same level as those countries It would be a massive financial gamble to push the boat out and make the el truly elite and I don't think it's going to happen to be honest Let's be honest who is going to risk hundreds of thousands on such a venture Therefore we need a plan b Mine is to run at an affordable level for 20 or so clubs to form a single division That's my contribution to this debate. Night night all! There is a massive latent fan base in speedway who simply aren't interested in going along as it stands now. However, should the right product be brought along, marketed correctly and run in a professional manner they could be tempted back. The chances of the current promoters doing that are next to zero though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 So get this right you are saying that if it was known that Zagar was to be replaced by a junior that it would no effect on the crowd ? in the lifetime of Speedway Zagar is a not big name but in the UK as we speak he one of the best riders and one of the biggest draws . Still waiting for your answer about what teams can't ride Home matches on a Monday night . I said that the teams riding at Monmore and Kirky Lane wouldn't be able to ride at home on the Monday night My point is, assuming a 10 team league on Monday, five tracks will not be operating each week Speedway fans are in the main creatures of habit and turn up same night each week, stand/sit in the same place, meet the same fellow fans Taking away that regular habit will risk losing some previously regular fans "Oh, on a Monday I can . . . . . ." instead of speedway - because, every other week, there isn't any at the local track! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Not properly it hasn't it worked in 1965 and could work if done properly not easy I know I thought you had gone to bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) I said that the teams riding at Monmore and Kirky Lane wouldn't be able to ride at home on the Monday night My point is, assuming a 10 team league on Monday, five tracks will not be operating each week Speedway fans are in the main creatures of habit and turn up same night each week, stand/sit in the same place, meet the same fellow fans Taking away that regular habit will risk losing some previously regular fans "Oh, on a Monday I can . . . . . ." instead of speedway - because, every other week, there isn't any at the local track! Another of the ridiculous old clichéd arguments presented. Most other sports can cope with home one week, away the next, but oh no, not speedway! All this boils down to is the same old stick in the muds wanting things the way they've always had it. Being able to go each week, being able to go to another track during the week. The same old stick in the mud promoters thinking that because those stick in the mud, ever aging and declining base of fans want it, everyone else does as well. People are speaking with their feet. They're not coming anymore. So these creatures of habit you speak of aren't attending every week anymore, its an argument long past its sell by date. A well presented, well marketed league run on a 1 home 1 away basis would make matches a must see and not have fans picking and choosing their meetings which they do now... those that still bother to pick and choose that is! For what it's worth, I too would much prefer racing every week... but the reality is it's not working. Edited July 21, 2014 by BWitcher 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) I said that the teams riding at Monmore and Kirky Lane wouldn't be able to ride at home on the Monday night My point is, assuming a 10 team league on Monday, five tracks will not be operating each week Speedway fans are in the main creatures of habit and turn up same night each week, stand/sit in the same place, meet the same fellow fans Taking away that regular habit will risk losing some previously regular fans "Oh, on a Monday I can . . . . . ." instead of speedway - because, every other week, there isn't any at the local track! Of course they would not be able to ride at home on the same night just like they don't in Sweden in Poland ,the idea is to have a home match every two weeks . Having racing every two weeks on set days in Poland and Sweden has worked so not sure why British fans would be any different to fans in Sweden and Poland who have got used to the habit of going every two weeks . Edited July 21, 2014 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 (edited) Of course they would not be able to ride at home on the same night just like they don't in Sweden in Poland ,the idea is to have a home match every two weeks . Having racing every two weeks on set days in Poland and Sweden has worked so not sure why British fans would be any different to fans in Sweden and Poland who have got used to the habit of going every two weeks . You could even see an increase in away support. Edited July 21, 2014 by BWitcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGT Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Cricket. Now there's a thing. Essentially boring (imo) and tedious (also imo) at bread and butter level, but vastly more successful and exciting (?) at test and limited over levels. But what really brings the money in and propels the game up to a totally different level of everything is 20/20 or whatever it's called now. Largely unpopular with the older generation, it's helped many clubs to survive financially (some still struggle though, granted) but it's created a whole new generation of, well, 20/20 fans. So there you have the answer, 6 months of tedious bread and butter league speedway, with a month of an all singing all dancing, hyper exciting, over the top competition to pay for it. Simple really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinMills Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 You could even see an increase in away support. think your positioning in the league with play off system has effected away support..take edinburgh for instance. why bother travelling to plymouth (for example) when they are nailed on for play offs, the old style lge system, in that instance, would maybe of got them out, as it was a different scenario..for edinburgh, i would guess some edinburgh fans even miss home meetings now, as they just got to wait for playoffs to start now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTM Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Interesting comments from both sides of the fence with Top Stars getting flak for wanting to earn money for themselves and family if they are married I Think British Speedway should change to one night a week on a two week cycle (1 home 1 away) with maybe a premier lge side or N/l side on the off week . The ultimate non negotiable main point being if Poland/Sunday Sweden/Tuesday Denmark/Friday ( or whenever their racenight is ) have a rain off it is up to them to bite the bullet and accept British Speedway takes priority on our nominated race night ,not as happened with Eastbournes Cameron Woodward and Joonas Kylmokorpi last week .Also if the rider or riders decided to stay abroad with their other employer they would automatically be banned in all other leagues for 28 days for not upholding a binding contract. Gb promoters will only be paying big stars once a fortnight, fans will turn up if they only get a once a fortnight chance to see their favourites, and if (as Coventry/Cradley/Mildenhall etc etc ) promoters field a cheaper team on their second week it will be a success as the fans have voted with their feet /entrance money this season in the N/L where The Storm (coventry) have been riding in front of some very impressive crowds . My last point is Track Curating must be improved and the shale has got to be the best ,which it has not been in the last few years ,this, although it is a major cost, if you only run top flight once a fortnight, you in theory shouldn,t use so much over the course of a season,and Curators must be paid decent money for the job .They (as far as I know ) have to be licenced by the control board and they are subject to at least one visit per year by the C/B inspector and they have their own rules and regs pages in the B.S.P.A. handbook which must be adhered to at all times .If they don,t do the job properly they can be banned . Just a few points/ideas I have been mulling over for a few months be interested to know if you are in agreement or wish to shoot me down . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hulvik Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Unlike others sports football and rugby league fo example speedway as never traditionally had a set night in this country. This isn't just as a few have stated down to ground shareing and landlords but local councils too, stating in planning permission nights and times which teams can run. How many teams have a cerfew ?. While it would be nice to see a set night in this country It will never happen. The other problem is sky it's self the only reason they want speedway on a Monday night is to fit in with the summer schedules. Anybody who as sky sports will see that as soon as the football season finishes rugby league is suddenly on the TV thursday to Monday in the few weeks were the seasons overlap your lucky to see an oval ball. Yes Sky bring money into the sport but at what cost you only have to look at the wage bills in other sky sports to see were the bulk of the money goes. A similar arugument is raging in football about the state of the national team with people saying limit wages and the number of overseas players only to be told if you cap the wages the top players will leave the domestic game and the perimer league will die as a result Yes all of us on here love our speedway and if you ask each one of us we'd all have a differant way to fix the problems. But some of the problems we have these days are caused by desicions that were made with the intention to bring the sport to a wider audiance and like many other sports before us this as become a desicion we have lived to regreat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Another of the ridiculous old clichéd arguments presented. Most other sports can cope with home one week, away the next, but oh no, not speedway! All this boils down to is the same old stick in the muds wanting things the way they've always had it. Being able to go each week, being able to go to another track during the week. The same old stick in the mud promoters thinking that because those stick in the mud, ever aging and declining base of fans want it, everyone else does as well. People are speaking with their feet. They're not coming anymore. So these creatures of habit you speak of aren't attending every week anymore, its an argument long past its sell by date. A well presented, well marketed league run on a 1 home 1 away basis would make matches a must see and not have fans picking and choosing their meetings which they do now... those that still bother to pick and choose that is! For what it's worth, I too would much prefer racing every week... but the reality is it's not working. Using Brandon as an example, Saturday was/Friday is speedway night You reckon the fans will come flooding back when every other Monday is speedway night Think again, pal And if Sky continue to broadcast live league matches, the armchair brigade will continue to exist/expand, to the detriment of clicks at the turnstiles 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Using Brandon as an example, Saturday was/Friday is speedway night You reckon the fans will come flooding back when every other Monday is speedway night Think again, pal And if Sky continue to broadcast live league matches, the armchair brigade will continue to exist/expand, to the detriment of clicks at the turnstiles It doesn't matter what night the product is on if its something that people will buy into. If you present crap, which is done now, people will stop coming, which they have. If you present a good product it doesn't matter what night it is on, people will attend. Do people only go to concerts at the weekend? Premier League Darts, that's Thursdays, it will never work! All of your arguments are based around the existing product so they are effectively null and void. The PRODUCT has to change and it has to change radically to engage the public once again. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 But what really brings the money in and propels the game up to a totally different level of everything is 20/20 or whatever it's called now. Largely unpopular with the older generation, it's helped many clubs to survive financially (some still struggle though, granted) but it's created a whole new generation of, well, 20/20 fans. It don't think it helps to compare speedway with cricket. Whilst T20 helps counties to not play in completely deserted grounds, most/all counties live off the largesse generated from international fixtures, which is surely a lesson for the authorities who allow the SGP to skim off what little cream there is. For most sports, it would be utter madness to play inconclusive matches in the middle of the day in the middle of the week, but cricket is fortunately one of those sports you can play every day, and if you're employing the players during the season anyway, you might as well open up the ground and get make a few quid from the old men and dogs. Cricket grounds also have the benefit of (usually) being quite attractive places to go and have a beer or two, so can tap into the higher class corporate market. Speedway remains wedded to the used car salesman, sign writing and local plumbing-business-done-good type of corporate sponsorship, and therein lies the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 (edited) Another of the ridiculous old clichéd arguments presented. Most other sports can cope with home one week, away the next, but oh no, not speedway! All this boils down to is the same old stick in the muds wanting things the way they've always had it. Being able to go each week, being able to go to another track during the week. The same old stick in the mud promoters thinking that because those stick in the mud, ever aging and declining base of fans want it, everyone else does as well. People are speaking with their feet. They're not coming anymore. So these creatures of habit you speak of aren't attending every week anymore, its an argument long past its sell by date. A well presented, well marketed league run on a 1 home 1 away basis would make matches a must see and not have fans picking and choosing their meetings which they do now... those that still bother to pick and choose that is! For what it's worth, I too would much prefer racing every week... but the reality is it's not working. Bwitcher, this is a discussion forum and calling people stick in the muds because they happen to not agree with you does not advance the course of sensible discussion. If you wan to advance e a particular point of view then other forum are members are entitled to scrutinise it and play Devils advocate. That doesn't make them stick in the muds. Speedway is beset with all kinds of problems and unless many of these are corrected then there is no evidence that changing to a single race night will make a scrap of difference. To illustrate: I know two people who now take virtually no interest in the sport and the reason they give is that they are sick of the T/R rule. I doubt that is the only reason but to them the rule is what stands out in their minds in keeping them away. I have heard of other fans who say the same thing and some have posted on here and said so. It doesn't bother you because you happen to like the rule but changing the race night is not going to win those fans back . I am not talking about those fans in particular but merely illustrate the point that many fans are really fed up with similar things relating to the rules and especially the inconsistent application of them. As another example there is another thread currently running about rolling at the starts which is an irritation to many fans. I was at a meeting recently where I heard that the Clerk of the Course actually pointed out to the referee that a particular rider was constantly rolling. The ref's answer was " Oh he's not rolling very much". No, not much , just enough to get a flyer and give the paying public a FTG win instead of a proper race. What's the point of having rules if referee's don't enforce them ? They are not going to suddenly enforce them because everyone races on the same night. How many posts have there been on this forum even within the last few weeks where referees have made shocking decisions, sometimes calling all 4 back when someone goes down on their own and at other times doing the exact opposite and excluding a rider who was clearly knocked off by another when it should be all 4 back ?. You have even posted on some of these incidents yourself . None of that will suddenly change simply by everyone racing the same night. On the other hand if the rules were followed and followed consistently it is quite possible a lot of fans will be tempted back what ever night of the week. Similarly meetings that drag on for ages on one night are not going to suddenly run to time another night. So IMO as a potential stick in the mud I am not convinced that anyone will be tempted back by a single race night unless the basics are sorted out first. Changing the race night before getting the rest of it sorted is putting the cart before the horse IMO. Edited July 22, 2014 by E I Addio 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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