Mark Posted June 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 I didn't.. Oh yes you did. Nearly pantomime season isn't it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Oh yes you did. Nearly pantomime season isn't it Avoiding the question now. You've started a thread spouting about a problem... I've asked for some examples.. let's hear about the meetings that have been effected by this 'problem'. Not the first time this has been used to change gate positions. As the "Voice of Reason" said, get rid of the 15 metre penalty, replace with reserve, or if it is a reserve then 3 riders only. This will not alter the gate positions, problem solved. Firstly, there isn't a problem. Secondly, there's enough bleating from fans as it is about the quality of riders in a race without reducing it further. The 15 metre option can be exciting. Seemingly you'd prefer to have one less rider or a rider of lower standard in the race that will likely be tailed off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Avoiding the question now. I'm not but I can't be bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) I'm not but I can't be bothered. Of course, you were bothered enough to start a thread about it though. In other words you can't think of one single example of this 'problem' effecting a meeting. You just decided to have a moan. Edited June 10, 2014 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenspoon Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) Neither can I. Bwitcher is the forum troll. Edited June 10, 2014 by woodenspoon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted June 10, 2014 Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Again, whilst I respect people's views that feel the newer starting system is better than tape-touching, nobody has actually said WHY it's better. No doubt, I'm not the only person in this thread that remains totally unconvinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2014 Of course, you were bothered enough to start a thread about it though. In other words you can't think of one single example of this 'problem' effecting a meeting. You just decided to have a moan. No, I just cant be bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Again, whilst I respect people's views that feel the newer starting system is better than tape-touching, nobody has actually said WHY it's better. No doubt, I'm not the only person in this thread that remains totally unconvinced. Read the starting Shenanigans thread in the General Discussions section. Once again this is a case of folk bleating about it being 'better' in the old days when the thing they are bleating about "Time to start a race" is actually better now than it was then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) Read the starting Shenanigans thread in the General Discussions section. Once again this is a case of folk bleating about it being 'better' in the old days when the thing they are bleating about "Time to start a race" is actually better now than it was then. I did get told to go on a Motivational Course but couldn't be bothered to get out of bed for that tripe. Edited June 11, 2014 by marky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 I'm still not bothered. I did get told to go on a Motivational Course but couldn't be bothered to get out of bed for that tripe. Thanks for the latest update, I see it hasn't changed from the earlier ones. I was replying to Voice of Reason, but its nice you could be bothered to tell us you're not bothered.. again. A little tip, it might help, if you really aren't bothered about something, don't read the thread, let alone post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted June 11, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 (edited) A little tip, it might help, if you really aren't bothered about something, don't read the thread, let alone post! Mucho Gracias for being bothered to give me a useful life tip. Edited June 11, 2014 by marky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAST GATER Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Funny didn't more people watch the sport in the tape touching era or was it just my imagination ,far better to watch four robots than four individuals any day "not" .Mauger would have won regardless of the starting rules that was the nature of the beast he would have stayed still better than anyone else ,if people think that staying still is the best rule in the last 30yrs then I beg to differ . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice Of Reason Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) And STILL, despite my request for many of the 'newbies' to justify their beliefs, I (and many others) remain totally unconvinced..........maybe because we are still awaiting a decent counter-argument? And as for the clones that forever cite Mauger as the prime culprit (most probably because what they have heard/read/believed such rhetoric) where's your actual proof that Ivan was any worse than Olsen, Michanek, etc. ? In a word.....'Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah'. Edited June 12, 2014 by The Voice Of Reason 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike.Butler Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 get rid of 15m rule and keep tape touching as an exclusion but allow riders to anticipate start if they want as long as they don't touch tapes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) And STILL, despite my request for many of the 'newbies' to justify their beliefs, I (and many others) remain totally unconvinced..........maybe because we are still awaiting a decent counter-argument? And as for the clones that forever cite Mauger as the prime culprit (most probably because what they have heard/read/believed such rhetoric) where's your actual proof that Ivan was any worse than Olsen, Michanek, etc. ? In a word.....'Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah'. I have already directed you to another thread where it is quite adequately explained. The main complaints we are seeing is the 'time it takes' to start the race, the gardening and messing around etc and the odd time where a race is pulled back when someone gets a flyer, but was actually just a good start... yet you are harking back to a system where races took a lot longer to start, riders messed around a hell of a lot more, the starts were frequently ragged and it basically was a mess. Once again, people are making a complaint and then harking back to a system where the very things they are complaining about were far worse... exactly the same as when complaints are made about the fairness of the TR. Incidentally, have you managed to learn your left from your right yet? Edited June 12, 2014 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) On balance the current system is better than the old system although I'd prefer it if rides were only penalised for actually touching the tapes. Rolling, twitching or going BOO! to the next rider to make him jump and touch the tapes should be okay. I don't see how putting a substitute rider in a race on equal footing for equal points can be compared to allowing one of the four riders to double his score for doing exactly the same task as any other competitor in the meeting. Putting a star sub on is quite common in a lot of sports, doubling points isn't. They both might not be 'fair' but one is just plain daft. We've been through this many times. No objections to the idea of double points being used as a bit 'silly' shall we say... but folk I am referring to are ones who complain the current system isn't fair and want the old one back.. in the interest of 'fairness'. The old system was more unfair, there is no way of disputing that. Your analogy with other sports doesn't really pan out either.. it would be like a cricket team, 8 wickets down replacing the 10th batter in the order with the guy who batted no 3 and is already out. As regards the starting system used now, I'd be inclined to agree with you. If someone takes a flyer and doesn't touch the tapes, good for them, its a great start.. let it go. Edited June 12, 2014 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) On balance the current system is better than the old system although I'd prefer it if rides were only penalised for actually touching the tapes. Rolling, twitching or going BOO! to the next rider to make him jump and touch the tapes should be okay. I don't see how putting a substitute rider in a race on equal footing for equal points can be compared to allowing one of the four riders to double his score for doing exactly the same task as any other competitor in the meeting. Putting a star sub on is quite common in a lot of sports, doubling points isn't. They both might not be 'fair' but one is just plain daft. But thats the problem. It was never an equal rider, it was always an under performing rider replaced by an on song rider, sometimes 2 in the case of a double tac sub. It could, and often did, turn what would likely be a 5/1 against a team int a 5/1 for. That change then skews the score by 8 points. In the case of double points then the most it can skew a score is 3. As regards tape touching I personally prefer the idea of all the riders stationary and a fair reflex action start taking place but I can see an argument for a flyer being allowed. I suppose it is akin to a flukey pot in snooker, they dont re spot the ball because it was just luck, Edited June 12, 2014 by Oldace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) As for fairness, just because there might be a bigger swing doesn't make it unfair does it? Brilliant. You've come out with some ridiculous statements in the past, but this is up there with the best of them. As for you dismissing the cricket example.. let us remember it is YOU that decided to compare to other sports. I've said they are not comparable in the slightest. You will not find anything in other sports that is comparable to the old tac sub system either. It is NOT the same as a substitution in football. It is giving a better rider an extra ride at the expense of a much weaker rider and is something that only the team losing can do. That's not how a substitution works in other sports is it, where the facility is available to both teams. Both concepts can be deemed ridiculous, both concepts are unfair. I readily admit the double points system is the more ridiculous looking idea, sadly you appear to be too pig headed to admit that the old system was the more unfair of the two. As for the starting, again, I agree with you. Just let them go unless they touch the tapes. Edited June 12, 2014 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Ivan Mauger loved the old way that's how he won most of his races I agree with you can't go back to that What a ridiculous statement that is. Ivan Mauger was one of the greatest riders ever in this sport, and you slander him as a cheat.. Ivan Mauger used every opportunity to his advantage. every time there was a rule, he would used it to the best possible outcome. Sure, he moved and rolled at the start, he was allowed to, sure he would push the tapes, of cause he would psych riders out to jump the start. He was brilliant. BUT if the rules then were the same as now, I can assure you Mauger would be the best at keeping still, and would always be first out of the traps. That man was the best starter the sport has ever known...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbogge Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I hope this will clear up one point about when a rider gets a flyer. if when the ref presses the go button thats his or her job done they have no control how fast or slow the tapes rise . so long as nobody touches the tapes before he or she presses the start button and does not then touch or break the tapes after the button is pressed and a rider is very smartly away then that a brilliant start and should be allowed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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