Belle Vue National Stadium

[uk_martin]

If the debt will not be passed to any new owners then belle vue fans needn't worry. Someone will snap the councils hand off to run belle vue speedway at the NSS.

 

All u need is a brain to make it work. And hopefully that person knows the stadium well already

 

Haven't we just gone through the same issues at Birmingham these last few years? Alan Phillips left a debt that Tony Mole had to clear before he could use the stadium again.

 

Gary Patchett also left a debt in 2010 that wasn't cleared. He's been banned from the Perry Barr Stadium and couldn't even attend when Cradley raced there a couple of years ago.

[Lord Skid]

Is that the same Mr Patchett of Swindon and Cradley fame, and he's still a Promoter?

[SteveLyric2]

Oh yes - the very same!!

[Bruiser McHuge]

Curzon Ashton's Tameside Stadium seems to survive very well in football as a council buit and owned stadium ..and that gets crowds of 200-300 most weeks...

However they do seem to attract good sponsorship ..they have an excellent 4G football pitch attached which is booked out all the time...there are always plenty of birthday parties booked there..it's used regularly for ex players taking their UEFA coaching badges...in short it's a council owned facility that is in constant use....

But I don't think any Curzon Ashton player will earn what Mates Zagar earns !

 

The location of the Belle Vue stadium doesn't lend itself for regular functions..the area is not great..there isn't a shortage of venues for parties round Manchester ..better areas than Gorton ...loads of hotel venues in the city for weddings and receptions ..we had ours in a city centre hotel...can't see a place in Gorton competing with those..

 

Concerts are a no go...there's loads of concert venues in Manchester..and if it's an outdoor concert then it's not big enough for a top act ..there's venues every year for those acts..

 

So realistically I can't see a regular income for the stadium outside of speedway..so I'm not sure what they can do about that..

 

The schedule doesn't help...in the good old days you knew Belle Vue was Saturday night..you got into the habit of knowing that was race night...this season there were plenty of nights I didn't even realise there was a meeting..it was very random..albeit by necessity at times..but not ideal...on top of that there are lengthy gaps between meetings which cannot help with cash flow when you've got rent deadlines to meet..

 

All in all its a tricky one...I hope it survives and I'm sure a compromise with the council will be found...it does the council no favours to have a new stadium sitting unused in its area...that doesn't look good on them..so I'm sure the Aces will run and then everybody needs to pull together to try and make the thing viable...a lot of people seem to be happy if this venture fails..the I told you so brigade ...we'll if it fails then it's anot her tail in speedway coffin in this country so ALL speedway fans should be desperate for this to be a success in the long term

Curzon Ashton's Tameside Stadium seems to survive very well in football as a council buit and owned stadium ..and that gets crowds of 200-300 most weeks...

However they do seem to attract good sponsorship ..they have an excellent 4G football pitch attached which is booked out all the time...there are always plenty of birthday parties booked there..it's used regularly for ex players taking their UEFA coaching badges...in short it's a council owned facility that is in constant use....

But I don't think any Curzon Ashton player will earn what Mates Zagar earns !

 

The location of the Belle Vue stadium doesn't lend itself for regular functions..the area is not great..there isn't a shortage of venues for parties round Manchester ..better areas than Gorton ...loads of hotel venues in the city for weddings and receptions ..we had ours in a city centre hotel...can't see a place in Gorton competing with those..

 

Concerts are a no go...there's loads of concert venues in Manchester..and if it's an outdoor concert then it's not big enough for a top act ..there's venues every year for those acts..

 

So realistically I can't see a regular income for the stadium outside of speedway..so I'm not sure what they can do about that..

 

The schedule doesn't help...in the good old days you knew Belle Vue was Saturday night..you got into the habit of knowing that was race night...this season there were plenty of nights I didn't even realise there was a meeting..it was very random..albeit by necessity at times..but not ideal...on top of that there are lengthy gaps between meetings which cannot help with cash flow when you've got rent deadlines to meet..

 

All in all its a tricky one...I hope it survives and I'm sure a compromise with the council will be found...it does the council no favours to have a new stadium sitting unused in its area...that doesn't look good on them..so I'm sure the Aces will run and then everybody needs to pull together to try and make the thing viable...a lot of people seem to be happy if this venture fails..the I told you so brigade ...we'll if it fails then it's anot her tail in speedway coffin in this country so ALL speedway fans should be desperate for this to be a success in the long term

[Tsunami]

 

Isn't it a 60 year lease?

I believe it was, but the agreement was changed to 25years instead. Maybe the payments going up was just too much to continue. In John Leslie's excellent post above, Post #1261, the new tenants could just rent it, rather than pay the larger payments to try and buy it.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I think the bottom line is that Manchester City Council did speedway something of a favour by funding the construction of a new speedway. Speedway almost never even enters the thinking of authorities planning new facilities these days, so MCC deserves some credit for supporting what is not only a minority sport, but one that hardly features in public consciousness these days.

 

And it seems they're rewarded for this by a bunch of unpaid bills, which just reinforce the image of speedway as a fly-by-night enterprise. So I really can't see that it's as simple as the previous promoters winding-up, and someone else in the sport coming along and expecting to start with a clean slate. I wouldn't accept that as a landlord, especially if governing body of the sport was endorsing the enterprise as a 'national stadium'. I'd simply think about hiring out the stadium to another sport.

[PHILIPRISING]

I think the bottom line is that Manchester City Council did speedway something of a favour by funding the construction of a new speedway. Speedway almost never even enters the thinking of authorities planning new facilities these days, so MCC deserves some credit for supporting what is not only a minority sport, but one that hardly features in public consciousness these days.

 

And it seems they're rewarded for this by a bunch of unpaid bills, which just reinforce the image of speedway as a fly-by-night enterprise. So I really can't see that it's as simple as the previous promoters winding-up, and someone else in the sport coming along and expecting to start with a clean slate. I wouldn't accept that as a landlord, especially if governing body of the sport was endorsing the enterprise as a 'national stadium'. I'd simply think about hiring out the stadium to another sport.

LET'S hope you are wrong. The BSPA seem confident that Belle Vue will continue in 2017 and there are people working to make that happen. The Council may or may not be entirely blameless for what happened this year and that could yet have a bearing on how the situation moves forward.

[Humphrey Appleby]

LET'S hope you are wrong. The BSPA seem confident that Belle Vue will continue in 2017 and there are people working to make that happen. The Council may or may not be entirely blameless for what happened this year and that could yet have a bearing on how the situation moves forward.

Well we're little the wiser from the reporting in the Star.

 

Possibly a failure on the initial delivery of the stadium/track, but that was compounded by the promotion not postponing the first meeting when that became apparent. Beyond that, what else?

 

If there were significant mitigating circumstances, why would the BSPA have terminated a promoting licence?

Edited November 13, 2016 by Humphrey Appleby

[Fromafar]

Well we're little the wiser from the reporting in the Star.Possibly a failure on the initial delivery of the stadium/track, but that was compounded by the promotion not postponing the first meeting when that became apparent. Beyond that, what else?If there were significant mitigating circumstances, why would the BSPA have terminated a promoting licence?

While the first meeting cancellation was a PR disaster, can't see where the big money loss from that meeting came from , surely they are only returning income that had already been collected.Ok a loss on some riders expenses but what else! Sounds as they did not pay any rent anyway!! Edited November 13, 2016 by Fromafar

[PHILIPRISING]

Well we're little the wiser from the reporting in the Star.

 

 

I HAVE already stated on here that while some people were prepared to talk off the record, and we wouldn't betray that, others had little to offer that we didn't already know. And the vast majority of SS readers don't trawl the internet and actually rely on the magazine to provide them with the sort of information that we did last week.

 

I don't know why you always think Speedway Star should effectively be dishing the dirt, if there actually is any. Our greater responsibility is not to publish anything at this stage that might seriously jeopardise the continuation of speedway at the NSS. I make no apologises for that.

 

We are not a tabloid newspaper and sometimes have to take the view that some things are better left unsaid. British speedway is in a precarious state as it is without SS rocking the boat still further.

 

And if that, as you so nicely put it a few days ago, means I have long lost all journalistic credibility then I can live with that.

Edited November 13, 2016 by PHILIPRISING

[orion]

 

 

We are not a tabloid newspaper and sometimes have to take the view that some things are better left unsaid. British speedway is in a precarious state as it is without SS rocking the boat still further.

 

That is the sort of attitude why speedway is in the state that it's in

[SteveEvans]

While the first meeting cancellation was a PR disaster, can't see where the big money loss from that meeting came from , surely they are only returning income that had already been collected.Ok a loss on some riders expenses but what else! Sounds as they did not pay any rent anyway!!

 

The tickets went on sale 11 months before the event. Quite possible revenue from sales or a portion of helped the club with bills in 2015. Not an uncommon business practice so long as one can deliver and still afford the deliver the product later.

[waiheke1]

 

The tickets went on sale 11 months before the event. Quite possible revenue from sales or a portion of helped the club with bills in 2015. Not an uncommon business practice so long as one can deliver and still afford the deliver the product later.

Not to mention that the 150k ish was no doubt part of the business plan for the year.

[PHILIPRISING]

While the first meeting cancellation was a PR disaster, can't see where the big money loss from that meeting came from , surely they are only returning income that had already been collected.Ok a loss on some riders expenses but what else! Sounds as they did not pay any rent anyway!!

OF course having to return the money was a huge blow. Having a bumper opening crowd and with it substantial revenue was vitally important for them. It was money they were never going to get again and the loss of four more home meetings, including the traditionally lucrative Good Friday fixture against Wolverhampton was another body blow.

 

It would appear that it all went pear shaped from then which is why Gordon, rightly or wrongly, lays much of the blame at the door of MCC

[waiheke1]

Just looked up the belle vue speedway accounts. Seem to be a different entity to that which Phil the Ace posted an earlier link to. But those are for 2014 and showed zero current assets but 730k of current liabilities. Only have access to the abbreviated financials, but even so that is an awful position, and would seem to align with what has been staTed by some on here that the financial issues date back to the dog track. Which begs the question of whether MCC did due diligence, as relying on payments from an entity with that balance sheet position at the start of the new "project" seems dicey at best.

[waiheke1]

Ok so it seems there are multiple companies, BV arena and BV speedway being the main ones. Net position of those is current liabilities exceeding current assets by circa 350k, so not as bad as indicated above but still pretty awful.

Morts "net worth" across companies he is director of is negative 380kish which seems pretty awful.

[SteveEvans]

OF course having to return the money was a huge blow. Having a bumper opening crowd and with it substantial revenue was vitally important for them. It was money they were never going to get again and the loss of four more home meetings, including the traditionally lucrative Good Friday fixture against Wolverhampton was another body blow.

 

It would appear that it all went pear shaped from then which is why Gordon, rightly or wrongly, lays much of the blame at the door of MCC

He may not be entirely wrong.

 

That said, they did put themselves in a position by selling the opening night event almost a year ahead. It is not uncommon for construction projects to hit delays and snags, this had been experienced many a time with all of the red tape and slows on the NSS outside of the clubs control over the years. The Swindon model seems to make more sense, run in the old stadium until the new one opens, even if it is during the season. That would have meant no big gala opening (unless they held off to 2017) but it is something in hindsight which may have saved them.

Edited November 14, 2016 by SteveEvans

[Fromafar]

OF course having to return the money was a huge blow. Having a bumper opening crowd and with it substantial revenue was vitally important for them. It was money they were never going to get again and the loss of four more home meetings, including the traditionally lucrative Good Friday fixture against Wolverhampton was another body blow.

 

It would appear that it all went pear shaped from then which is why Gordon, rightly or wrongly, lays much of the blame at the door of MCC

Were the 4 lost home meetings never rearranged then?

[Humphrey Appleby]

We are not a tabloid newspaper and sometimes have to take the view that some things are better left unsaid. British speedway is in a precarious state as it is without SS rocking the boat still further.

Where did I say the Star should be a tabloid newspaper? I fully appreciate that the sport leads a precarious financial existence and that an injudicious article could be the tipping point between a promotion continuing and one where the debts are called in. However, Belle Vue is something that's already happened, not something that may happen so I think it's entirely appropriate to analyse what went wrong.

 

Regardless of whether you think most of the Star's readership uses the Internet, there are many speedway fans and I daresay Manchester City Councillors who do. They're perfectly able to find out rumours, gossip and indeed financial information, and then will talk about it. I therefore think it's far better to lay out some of the facts which at least gives the opportunity to mitigate the situation rather than have rumours spiralling out of control.

 

The sport continuing to brush problems under the carpet just gives it a shoddy image, and I'm fairly certain has contributed to the loss of tracks as well down the years. There's only so many times that landlords and suppliers are prepared to get shafted, and eventually they come to the conclusion that housing is more reliable not to mention more lucrative.

 

There are a number of people on here who openly questioned the business plan from the outset, but were assured by an eminent speedway journalist that everything in the garden was rosy. Now what should have been a rare positive development in generally depressing downward spiral for the sport, is not only looking like yet another nail in its coffin, but fingers of blame are being pointed anywhere but towards those responsible. Hopefully as you assure us, the situation is not irretrievable, but it would seem inevitable that MCC will want more guarantees next time around.

 

On a more general note, it's obviously not a pleasant task to haul a long-standing servant of the sport over the coals, and one who was undoubtedly involved in the project for well meaning reasons. It's also easy to be critical of those who get off their backsides and no doubt stake significant amounts of money in a sport with very questionable returns, but there seems to have been some completely unrealistic expectations from this venture compounded by a serious error at the start of the season.

[Grand Central]

It is occasionally useful to use an analogy or a metaphor.

To shed light on a difficult subject and illuminate our understanding.

 

After 'wading through that treacle'.

I feel I know so much less.