StevePark Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 If someone like Gordon and Morton or the Belle Vue saviours from the late 80s, and a stadium like the Ricoh was an option, no matter how difficult it might seem to the 'can't do' types like you, it would happen. A ready built stadium, particularly one of that quality would be manna from heaven and definitely seen as 'on a plate' but not every one has the gumption to make something happen falling by the wayside on naff naff and trivia or frightened off by a bit of hard graft. Thanks for confirming my suspicions by the way, nuff said, lol! on a plate phrase of plate 1. informal used to indicate that something has been achieved with little or no effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Apologies. In your post, you mention Armadale. Then on line 2 you mention Coventry. Then in line 3 you say there is no railway line. I (wrongly) assumed you were still talking about the Ricoh, not Armadale. I mention Google Maps as, everyone can go onto it and see the location of the Arena. By the way, for your information, I have visited Armadale on numerous occasions! I wrote: "Armadale isn't a fully enclosed stadium like Ricoh There is no main road comparable with the A444, a main link between Coventry north and the M6, closer to the homes than the stadium There is no railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium" It's all about Armadale - not fully enclosed, no main road, no railway line Seems straight forward enough, but clearly, reading your continued failure to grasp any point made to you, it wasn't straight forward enough for you I won't call you names, although one or two spring to mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 As I have already pointed out, what is considered little or no effort to the likes of Gordon and Morton would seem like a task of biblical proportions to someone like you. Awaits a pedantic comment about the use of the word biblical....... All I've said is that it would have many obstacles to overcome, I have never said anything like that it is a task of biblical proportions. If you think putting speedway anywhere, where it isn't currently, is a task of little or no effort (no matter who is behind the scheme), then I suggest you look at all those which have tried in the last few years and failed (Bristol, Exeter etc., etc.). I wrote: "Armadale isn't a fully enclosed stadium like Ricoh There is no main road comparable with the A444, a main link between Coventry north and the M6, closer to the homes than the stadium There is no railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium" It's all about Armadale - not fully enclosed, no main road, no railway line Seems straight forward enough, but clearly, reading your continued failure to grasp any point made to you, it wasn't straight forward enough for you I won't call you names, although one or two spring to mind! Which is why I apologised! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Well Belle Vue managed it in 1987, despite the 'many obstacles' you have already pointed out. It was that difficult it took nearly 6 months to achieve. Guess what we are going to move again, not as far this time though. Those failures you refer to would have failed at Belle Vue in 1987 and they would have failed with the National Speedway stadium. Until you replace the can't do with the can do everything seems difficult or even impossible. This thread was just an alert of another small step in the process. I welcome any concrete news of progress, particularly one as significant as this as we were hamstrung until the council gave us the dates. There will be people like you who will toddle off to the meeting and make stupid claims in a feeble attempt to undermine the project, little do they know that this is just ticking a box, nothing a sado says at these events will make any difference whatsoever. It's just like you and one or two others posting drivel on this and other threads, at the end of the day you will just look stupid. What does baffle me though is what is your agenda? What do you hope to achieve by constant negative bilge? Is it jealousy, are you so unhappy that you want to try and stifle any good news and bring everyone down to your gloomy world? There must be a reason? No agenda, as you put it. I will be absolutely delighted if the National Stadium happens. I will be applauding loudly if there is an English/British GP held there as it saves travelling all the way down to Cardiff (I haven't been to Cardiff for a number of years, although attended half a dozen, but would love a 'change of scenery' for the said GP and could actually help me male a decision to go to the GP again). I'm just putting 'the other side of the coin,' which, is, after all, what discussions are all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I think it would be brilliant for both BV, and the sport in general, to see the National Stadium up and running. I praise the efforts of those involved, and I am well aware that progress of a project of this size needs extreme patience, especially when you consider this development is part of a package being run by others, so the progress is often determined by the other partners. Let's hope we continue to get positive news about it's progress. It was deemed initially to be a bad time to invest in a project of this size, due to the countries financial downturn, but with the economy back of track and going in the right direction, the time would now seem to be an OK time to finish the project. Best of luck. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 Ah! The problem with that is you've got the wrong coin! The one we are all discussing is the National Speedway Stadium, not an empty stadium in a not so small town in the midlands. Lots of contributions to this thread have illustrated or emphasised something with various references, I've not seen anyone pick up on the Fast Show and go on about it. Somebody used the burst pipe fiasco to illustrate their point about Gordon and Morton being clowns, nobody went on about the details and the facts of that particular issue did they? I pointed out that no promoter has managed to achieve what Gordon and Morton have done and are doing despite it being far far less difficult in a small provincial town or not so small city with an empty stadium. If you want to give the other side of the coin make sure you are tossing the right one! And to all the other tossers do try and be a bit constructive instead of just posting negative bilge all the time, if something is not right then offer a solution ffs! You were the one to bring that one up. It might well be a "different coin," but both could well come up with similar obstacles that would have to be overcome. If you don't look and anticipate any obstacles, you are on a hiding to nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I think it would be brilliant for both BV, and the sport in general, to see the National Stadium up and running. I praise the efforts of those involved, and I am well aware that progress of a project of this size needs extreme patience, especially when you consider this development is part of a package being run by others, so the progress is often determined by the other partners. Let's hope we continue to get positive news about it's progress. It was deemed initially to be a bad time to invest in a project of this size, due to the countries financial downturn, but with the economy back of track and going in the right direction, the time would now seem to be an OK time to finish the project. Best of luck. Too many people on here want to ignore that Tsunami. I am looking forward to the new Stadium and hope I will be able to visit it at some time. UP THE 'ACES'!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy jimmy Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 On this thread as well as previous ones relating to this project, I've consistently stated that I support the idea of a National Speedway Stadium, especially if it's to be situated in a city with as much speedway heritage as Manchester. However, I've also consistently stated I've no confidence whatsoever in the ability of Dave Gordon or Chris Morton to oversee this project's development or be involved heavily in its successful operation should it ever be built. You may think that's a "cowardly and negative stance" ... I reckon it's a realistic view of where the project's reached (or more often, not reached) so far along with information I've weighed up from various angles. We'll gradually find out who's right and who's wrong ... what's more, I won't be afraid to congratulate everyone if it turns out we're enjoying an English Grand Prix or a World Cup Final at this stadium in a few years' time. Right now, and based overwhelmingly on the evidence I've seen so far, I don't expect to be making such congratulations. Well I am sure your congratulations will make the whole thing worthwhile for them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) To be honest - I cannot really understand why you seem so determined to have a go at the people who are Promoting Belle Vue, and attempting to push forward the new Stadium develpement. I think that what they are attempting is wonderful for Speedway, and incidentally, my Team Belle Vue. I think what could apply here is that if you can't find something nice or positive to say - say nothing. Arthur Cross may have his opinion but lets be honest,whatever happens with this project or however long it takes to get built you would never contemplate to criticise the Belle Vue management in any way.Whenever I have posed a question regarding the stadium timescale or lack of information to the public you jump on here with a "calm down" "be patient" "it will happen" although you have no actual inside information to call on,just blind faith.I think this weeks announcement mirrored speedway as a whole,the expectation level has become so low that anything slightly positive is hyped into up into something bigger than what it is.As for 'clowns' bit harsh maybe but after the burst pipe incident and the good Friday cancellation 2 years ago think it proves that this team is not exempt from making some mistakes, contrary to what some posters on here believe. Edited June 7, 2014 by New Science 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil The Ace Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 FC United took 7 years if not longer to get there stadium. We won't be in ours till at least 2016 With us its not just a case of a new stadium. It's a whole village of sports and a massive redevelopment of east Manchester It was never going to be easy. Yes aces management messed up with dates and time scales etc but now all we have to do is get planning permission and then things will start rapidly kicking on I'm unsure of how long a planning application takes but I'd hazard a guess that would take about 3 month. At least it is moving forward slowly rather than backwards. I can't wait to see all your faces when/if it happens. You would all be gutted as u just seem that u want this to fail 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.V 72 Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Anyone who puts 7 years(and still counting) of their lives into a project like this and with all the set backs still have the balls to keep going instead of just letting speedway die in manchester deserves praise and backing not the constant crap they get on this forum.Whatever the outcome they will have my thanks and support. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Arthur Cross may have his opinion but lets be honest,whatever happens with this project or however long it takes to get built you would never contemplate to criticise the Belle Vue management in any way.Whenever I have posed a question regarding the stadium timescale or lack of information to the public you jump on here with a "calm down" "be patient" "it will happen" although you have no actual inside information to call on,just blind faith.I think this weeks announcement mirrored speedway as a whole,the expectation level has become so low that anything slightly positive is hyped into up into something bigger than what it is.As for 'clowns' bit harsh maybe but after the burst pipe incident and the good Friday cancellation 2 years ago think it proves that this team is not exempt from making some mistakes, contrary to what some posters on here believe. Two things - it will be built - that's the first one. Secondly I have never said that there have not been mistakes made, of course there has. What I would say however is that every Speedway Supporter in the Country should be doing their best to support this endeavour. In my opinion it will be to the benefit of all of us, Belle Vue Speedway and to British Speedway too. You are right - I do have faith in the Project, but when you think of the colossal Development that is taking place in Manchester I believe we do have to be patient. You are also right about the fact that I have no inside Information, I don't. I have never met Mr. Gordon and have only met Mr. Morton a couple of times, so I don't know him either. I do, however, believe in them. Finally - there must have been loads of hurdles to overcome with a Project like this - it has to be integrated in to so many other Developments as well - I, for one, am not surprised by the constant delays, most of which will be nothing to do with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Morton. Awaits Flak. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABS Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Two things - it will be built - that's the first one. Secondly I have never said that there have not been mistakes made, of course there has. What I would say however is that every Speedway Supporter in the Country should be doing their best to support this endeavour. In my opinion it will be to the benefit of all of us, Belle Vue Speedway and to British Speedway too. You are right - I do have faith in the Project, but when you think of the colossal Development that is taking place in Manchester I believe we do have to be patient. You are also right about the fact that I have no inside Information, I don't. I have never met Mr. Gordon and have only met Mr. Morton a couple of times, so I don't know him either. I do, however, believe in them. Finally - there must have been loads of hurdles to overcome with a Project like this - it has to be integrated in to so many other Developments as well - I, for one, am not surprised by the constant delays, most of which will be nothing to do with Mr. Gordon and Mr. Morton. Awaits Flak. Their biggest mistake was giving out (unrealistic) dates in the first place. When something, such as this project, is so much out of your influence, let alone control, the last thing you do is set expectation levels that haven't got a prayer of being met, which is what Gordon and Morton did. What they should have done, like any successful business person would, is to set low expectation levels and look to better them. Sadly, this doesn't appear to have been their strategy and as a consequence they have been on the back foot ever since. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) Their biggest mistake was giving out (unrealistic) dates in the first place. When something, such as this project, is so much out of your influence, let alone control, the last thing you do is set expectation levels that haven't got a prayer of being met, which is what Gordon and Morton did. What they should have done, like any successful business person would, is to set low expectation levels and look to better them. Sadly, this doesn't appear to have been their strategy and as a consequence they have been on the back foot ever since. Best post on the subject so far ...the bottom line if they get this up and running they will get all the praise in the World but if they fail they are going a cop a lot of flak mainly because of the stuff you talk about above . Edited June 8, 2014 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouch Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Their biggest mistake was giving out (unrealistic) dates in the first place. When something, such as this project, is so much out of your influence, let alone control, the last thing you do is set expectation levels that haven't got a prayer of being met, which is what Gordon and Morton did. What they should have done, like any successful business person would, is to set low expectation levels and look to better them. Sadly, this doesn't appear to have been their strategy and as a consequence they have been on the back foot ever since. Don't forget to add Eddie Smith, Chief Executive of the New East Manchester regeneration framework, to the list. He said back in 2011 The more realistic time scale is to start the work is spring next year. If it begins in March we would need to be running a speedway meeting by September. I am confident a six-month building plan can be delivered. These are the people Belle Vue are getting their information from that they then pass on. I imagine they are even more frustrated than us fans being stuck in the middle. Six month build plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Science Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Their biggest mistake was giving out (unrealistic) dates in the first place. When something, such as this project, is so much out of your influence, let alone control, the last thing you do is set expectation levels that haven't got a prayer of being met, which is what Gordon and Morton did. What they should have done, like any successful business person would, is to set low expectation levels and look to better them. Sadly, this doesn't appear to have been their strategy and as a consequence they have been on the back foot ever since. Spot on ! someone with their finger on the pulse ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted June 8, 2014 Report Share Posted June 8, 2014 Their biggest mistake was giving out (unrealistic) dates in the first place. When something, such as this project, is so much out of your influence, let alone control, the last thing you do is set expectation levels that haven't got a prayer of being met, which is what Gordon and Morton did. What they should have done, like any successful business person would, is to set low expectation levels and look to better them. Sadly, this doesn't appear to have been their strategy and as a consequence they have been on the back foot ever since. Spot on. First rule of project managements is set and announce realistic and achievable deadlines and timeframes for everything. As soon as you fall behind you lose the confidence of others. Yet if you'd been pessimistic in your expectations and over achieved peoples perseption changes drastically. If you over estimate all the time though people learn that you over estimate and take this into account but as this is a one of project (unless the BV managment plan to built many stadiums?!) that was not likely. I just happen to think the PR has been terrible. Constantly failing to meet deadlines and thne dangling tiny, irrelevant bits of news as if it's something major. There are 3 major announcements for me. 1. "We're building a stadium" 2. "We have planning permission". And 3. "we're have all the funding" (2 and 3 are interchangeable). We have had number 1 done properly. I'll say it again, I hope this comes off. It'll be a massive thing for BV and not bad for British Speedway. Kirky Lane is a crap hole thats not seen a paint brush since BV moved in in the late 80s and the track is poor (although they do seem to be rolling that turd in a bit of glitter these days). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur cross Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Anyway, how long would you expect a small 6000 capacity stadium to take to go from idea to completion? Rotherham United FC - a well-known sports team in a relatively run-down urban area who had been based for 101 years in the ever-increasingly decrepit Millmoor until they fell out once and for all with that ground's owner. So they finished playing at Millmoor in May 2008 and announced their aim to find and purchase a new site in the town while renting the Don Valley Stadium (two-thirds of the way from Rotherham into Sheffield) in the meantime. In January 2010 they bought the site of a former steelworks foundry within Rotherham ... in November 2010, outline planning permission was granted ... and in June 2011, construction was started on the 12,000 seater New York Stadium comprising of 4 separate stands holding about 2,000 at each end and about 4,000 along each side (it's in a district of Rotherham called New York). Prince Edward formally opened it in March 2012 but Rotherham United completed the 4th full season of their spell at Don Valley before kicking-off at New York with a July 2012 pre-season friendly against South Yorkshire neighbours Barnsley. Therefore it took them just over 4 years from needing a permanent solution having fallen-out with the Millmoor owner to playing in their new home ground ... it could've been less than 4 years if they'd snapped their Don Valley residency in mid-season. It's sparked a tremendous revival in their fortunes because they've been promoted in both their first 2 seasons at New York as well as being given the honour of hosting an England youth-international. Since 2011 in terms of public statements (but well before that privately), the Belle Vue Aces have been aiming for a permanent 6,000 capacity (plus easy options for temporary stands towards a total 15,000 capacity) so they're going to be take quite a bit longer than Rotherham's example for your timescale of "idea to completion". Chesterfield FC first became aware of a former glassworks' availability in the autumn of 2004 and began playing there in summer 2010 with the biggest delay to that project being the full demolition of the old glassworks rather anything to do with the new football ground. Salford rugby league were provisionally allocated their new site by their local council in 2005 and would've begun playing there as soon as 2009 (rather than the actual 2012) if the original development company on that project hadn't gone into administration in 2008. Hopefully that answers your question rather accurately. Edited June 9, 2014 by arthur cross Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Blachshadow Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) Has any work at all started on this scheme, the whole redevelopment I mean, not just the speedway part of it? As in old buildings demolished, sods lifted, land levelled, bricks laid, metalwork erected, not planning. Edited June 9, 2014 by Vincent Blackshadow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePark Posted June 9, 2014 Report Share Posted June 9, 2014 Has any work at all started on this scheme, the whole redevelopment I mean, not just the speedway part of it? As in old buildings demolished, sods lifted, land levelled, bricks laid, metalwork erected, not planning. Can you do any of that without planning permission? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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