Belle Vue National Stadium

[MattK]

I think Authur Cross must be in the know as he had been aware of this project for seven years yet the news only entered the public domain three years ago. The Aces held an event at Gorton Monastry in August 2011 where us not already in the know were given details on the project.

The press release issued yesterday clearly states the project was launched in 2007.

[ch958]

And you're perfectly entitled to confirm such a belief.

 

Mind you, the opening 4 paragraphs of the forum-thread you've quoted from mid-August 2013 are as follows ...

 

BELLE Vue chief David Gordon has unveiled the stunning team of international business big-hitters who will play a major part in the club’s new era.

He named an awesome consortium of top British businessmen who have invested in the club’s future and the new stadium at the new Belle Vue Sports Village.

It was recently given the green light by Manchester City Council who have appointed international construction company ISG, who have a base on Salford Quays, to develop the site in Kirkmanshulme Lane, Gorton.

ISG, who built the futuristic Velodrome for last year’s London Olympics, are now pursuing planning permission and hopes are high the Aces will race into their new home in 2014.

 

Given we're already nearly halfway through 2014, are those hopes still high that the Aces will race into their new home this year ? !!

 

There's a repeated theme here ... the MEN-article from Feb-2012 targeted the 2013 World Cup for the new stadium ... then the forum-thread and press release from Aug-2013 targeted 2014 for Belle Vue racing into their new homw ... now, on the first page of this thread in Jun-2014, we had "Phil The Ace" reporting that "Diggers won't be digging until next year at earliest."

 

There's only so long you can credibly keep raising hopes for "next year" and then switch without any shame to another "next year" when the calendar moves on.

 

 

are you saying you don't believe this project will come to fruition

 

if so - just say that and bow out

 

if it does happen you'll just slink off and we'll probably forget what you said - if it doesn't you can trumpet 'told you so' for about 4 years

its quite a cowardly and negative stance

[Midland Red]

 

Not where I'm looking on Google maps "Streetview" there isn't. On Judds Lane there is a narrow path next to a wooden fence leading to houses (there is a white coach on the right in the car park, with houses straight ahead).

 

Also, don't forget, speedway would be running (weather permitting) every week, not just the every fortnight the stadium would be used for football.

 

All I'm saying is it's not "on a plate" as suggested by Drop a cog. I'm not saying it isn't a possibilty, but there would be a few obstacles that would have to be overcome to persuade people to allow speedway to move into the stadium.

 

???? There are no houses on Judds Lane - it leads to a footbridge over the railway line, to what are the nearest houses to the arena

 

So,, to the west there are houses across the main road and the other side of the carpark

To the east there are houses the other side of a railway line

No houses to the north (all industrial)

No houses to the south (retail park)

 

Immediate access to the M6 at a location not far from M6 Toll, M42, M5, M69, M1, A14 - which is precisely why, originally, it was suggested that the new National Football Stadium, to replace the old Empire Stadium at Wembley, might be constructed on this very site

 

Oh, and not too far from one of the locations claimed to be "the centre of England"

 

It has a lot going for it (including being out of regular use at the moment!) and noise nimby problems are likely to be minimal at the very most

 

Edit: There is also the likelihood of a railway station being built at the arena

Edited June 6, 2014 by Midland Red

[ouch]

The press release issued yesterday clearly states the project was launched in 2007.

Yes but we didn't know about it 'till years later. Only those involved and Arthur Cross have been in from the get go.

[StevePark]

 

???? There are no houses on Judds Lane - it leads to a footbridge over the railway line, to what are the nearest houses to the arena

 

I said "leading to houses," not "on." They appear to be flats and are situated on Grindle Road, which is about 150/200mtrs from the stadium.

 

It may well be easily accessible by being close to all the Motorways you mention, but it would only take a few of those NIMBY's I mentioned earlier to kick up a fuss about the speedway being installed in the stadium, to make it a lot less "on a plate," than suggested.

[arthur cross]

are you saying you don't believe this project will come to fruition

 

if so - just say that and bow out

 

if it does happen you'll just slink off and we'll probably forget what you said - if it doesn't you can trumpet 'told you so' for about 4 years

its quite a cowardly and negative stance

On this thread as well as previous ones relating to this project, I've consistently stated that I support the idea of a National Speedway Stadium, especially if it's to be situated in a city with as much speedway heritage as Manchester.

 

However, I've also consistently stated I've no confidence whatsoever in the ability of Dave Gordon or Chris Morton to oversee this project's development or be involved heavily in its successful operation should it ever be built.

 

You may think that's a "cowardly and negative stance" ... I reckon it's a realistic view of where the project's reached (or more often, not reached) so far along with information I've weighed up from various angles.

 

We'll gradually find out who's right and who's wrong ... what's more, I won't be afraid to congratulate everyone if it turns out we're enjoying an English Grand Prix or a World Cup Final at this stadium in a few years' time.

 

Right now, and based overwhelmingly on the evidence I've seen so far, I don't expect to be making such congratulations.

Edited June 6, 2014 by arthur cross

[Midland Red]

I said "leading to houses," not "on." They appear to be flats and are situated on Grindle Road, which is about 150/200mtrs from the stadium.

 

It may well be easily accessible by being close to all the Motorways you mention, but it would only take a few of those NIMBY's I mentioned earlier to kick up a fuss about the speedway being installed in the stadium, to make it a lot less "on a plate," than suggested.

They overlook the railway, on which 16 freight trains will have passed by within the last 24 hours - that's 16 in a day, as opposed to 15 heats (23 in a GP) per week for 7 months in a year

 

They haven't closed down the railway!!!

[The White Knight]

 

???? There are no houses on Judds Lane - it leads to a footbridge over the railway line, to what are the nearest houses to the arena

 

So,, to the west there are houses across the main road and the other side of the carpark

To the east there are houses the other side of a railway line

No houses to the north (all industrial)

No houses to the south (retail park)

 

Immediate access to the M6 at a location not far from M6 Toll, M42, M5, M69, M1, A14 - which is precisely why, originally, it was suggested that the new National Football Stadium, to replace the old Empire Stadium at Wembley, might be constructed on this very site

 

Oh, and not too far from one of the locations claimed to be "the centre of England"

 

It has a lot going for it (including being out of regular use at the moment!) and noise nimby problems are likely to be minimal at the very most

 

Edit: There is also the likelihood of a railway station being built at the arena

It only takes 'one' - look at Mildenhall. :sad:

[ch958]

On this thread as well as previous ones relating to this project, I've consistently stated that I support the idea of a National Speedway Stadium, especially if it's to be situated in a city with as much speedway heritage as Manchester.

 

However, I've also consistently stated I've no confidence whatsoever in the ability of Dave Gordon or Chris Morton to oversee this project's development or be involved heavily in its successful operation should it ever be built.

 

You may think that's a "cowardly and negative stance" ... I reckon it's a realistic view of where the project's reached (or more often, not reached) so far along with information I've weighed up from various angles.

 

We'll gradually find out who's right and who's wrong ... what's more, I won't be afraid to congratulate everyone if it turns out we're enjoying an English Grand Prix or a World Cup Final at this stadium in a few years' time.

 

Right now, and based overwhelmingly on the evidence I've seen so far, I don't expect to be making such congratulations.

 

fair enough

[StevePark]

They overlook the railway, on which 16 freight trains will have passed by within the last 24 hours - that's 16 in a day, as opposed to 15 heats (23 in a GP) per week for 7 months in a year

 

They haven't closed down the railway!!!

 

No. But those who moved in since 2012 will have been well aware of the railway track and the empty football stadium (with the possibility of the return of football). The additional 15 heats of speedway and the announcements over the P.A. system would be in addition to what they would have expected when they moved in.

 

Very similar to those who have moved into the houses at Armadale. They would have been aware of the speedway track outside their front door, when they moved in, so they have no complaints, whereas those near to the Ricoh could have complaints, as it wasn't used as a speedway venue when they moved in.

[ch958]

having just criticised Mr Cross for being negative i feel i must say that Speedway would be unlikely to afford the rent for the Ricoh and i doubt the cash exists within the sport to purchase it

 

lovely idea though -

[Midland Red]

No. But those who moved in since 2012 will have been well aware of the railway track and the empty football stadium (with the possibility of the return of football). The additional 15 heats of speedway and the announcements over the P.A. system would be in addition to what they would have expected when they moved in.

 

Very similar to those who have moved into the houses at Armadale. They would have been aware of the speedway track outside their front door, when they moved in, so they have no complaints, whereas those near to the Ricoh could have complaints, as it wasn't used as a speedway venue when they moved in.

 

Armadale isn't a fully enclosed stadium like Ricoh

There is no main road comparable with the A444, a main link between Coventry north and the M6, closer to the homes than the stadium

There is no railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium

Chalk and cheese, a very poor argument

I don't suppose for one moment that speedway will ever be staged at the Ricoh, even a one-off event, but I do wish your comments contained some element of realism with regards to a location you've only ever visited via Google

[AndyJ]

Very similar to those who have moved into the houses at Armadale. They would have been aware of the speedway track outside their front door, when they moved in, so they have no complaints, whereas those near to the Ricoh could have complaints, as it wasn't used as a speedway venue when they moved in.

Sadly the fact that residents moved in whilst the speedway track is a going concern is seemingly of little relevance (the government response to the e-petition for 'Save Mildenhall Stadium' is an example of this)..

 

Edit:

Reference: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62894

"Since the late 1800s, it has become well established in case law that once it is established that a particular act amounts to a nuisance it cannot be justified on the basis that the complainant ‘came to the nuisance’. In other words, legal proceedings can be taken in relation to issues that can constitute a nuisance, regardless of whether those circumstances arose before the complainant became the occupier of the affected premises"

Edited June 6, 2014 by Tkdandy

[StevePark]

Armadale isn't a fully enclosed stadium like Ricoh

There is no main road comparable with the A444, a main link between Coventry north and the M6, closer to the homes than the stadium

There is no railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium

Chalk and cheese, a very poor argument

I don't suppose for one moment that speedway will ever be staged at the Ricoh, even a one-off event, but I do wish your comments contained some element of realism with regards to a location you've only ever visited via Google

 

And pray tell how the heck do you know where I have visited only via Google?????

 

???? There are no houses on Judds Lane - it leads to a footbridge over the railway line, to what are the nearest houses to the arena

 

So,, to the west there are houses across the main road and the other side of the carpark

To the east there are houses the other side of a railway line

No houses to the north (all industrial)

No houses to the south (retail park)

 

Immediate access to the M6 at a location not far from M6 Toll, M42, M5, M69, M1, A14 - which is precisely why, originally, it was suggested that the new National Football Stadium, to replace the old Empire Stadium at Wembley, might be constructed on this very site

 

Oh, and not too far from one of the locations claimed to be "the centre of England"

 

It has a lot going for it (including being out of regular use at the moment!) and noise nimby problems are likely to be minimal at the very most

 

Edit: There is also the likelihood of a railway station being built at the arena

 

 

Armadale isn't a fully enclosed stadium like Ricoh

There is no main road comparable with the A444, a main link between Coventry north and the M6, closer to the homes than the stadium

There is no railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium

Chalk and cheese, a very poor argument

I don't suppose for one moment that speedway will ever be staged at the Ricoh, even a one-off event, but I do wish your comments contained some element of realism with regards to a location you've only ever visited via Google

 

Contradiction there, I believe!

[Midland Red]

Contradiction there, I believe!

I don't know Armadale, only what I see on Google, but I don't see a railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium, like there is at Ricoh

 

Contradiction? Don't understand where!

 

And pray tell how the heck do you know where I have visited only via Google?????

 

 

An assumption, I admit, but you only mentioned viewing the Ricoh and environs on Google and not from having visited the area Edited June 6, 2014 by Midland Red

[arthur cross]

A completed and vacant sports stadium which already has (apparently) held noisy events like rock concerts and in an ideal location to become the home for a local team without the need for any of the faff Belle Vue have been dealing with for the last few years, is as near to 'on a plate' as you will ever get.

Dear, oh dear, oh dear ... for the 3rd time in less than 24 hours !!

 

As I explained earlier this morning on this thread, although no local team currently calls it their home, the Ricoh Arena isn't "vacant".

 

Instead, its current financial status and its future use are right at the heart of a High Court judicial review in just 4 days' time that's a 3-way tussle between its owner, its city council and the football club that used to rent it !!

 

Good luck knocking on Birmingham High Court's door to ask if a speedway team can move into a venue that's wrapped up in such heavy legal circumstances !!

 

While this judicial review is hanging over the Ricoh Arena, it's immaterial how many noisy events it's already held well before becoming bogged down in this current legal struggle.

 

Any future regular use of it, for speedway, football, rock concerts, tiddlywinks or anything else is totally dependent on what happens in Birmingham High Court from next Tuesday onwards.

 

Far from the Ricoh Arena not having "any of the faff Belle Vue have been dealing with for the past few years", it's actually one of the very few sporting venues in this country that's still having MORE faff than Belle Vue are trudging through so slowly !! !!

[Aces51]

And you're perfectly entitled to confirm such a belief.Mind you, the opening 4 paragraphs of the forum-thread you've quoted from mid-August 2013 are as follows ...BELLE Vue chief David Gordon has unveiled the stunning team of international business big-hitters who will play a major part in the club’s new era.He named an awesome consortium of top British businessmen who have invested in the club’s future and the new stadium at the new Belle Vue Sports Village.It was recently given the green light by Manchester City Council who have appointed international construction company ISG, who have a base on Salford Quays, to develop the site in Kirkmanshulme Lane, Gorton.ISG, who built the futuristic Velodrome for last year’s London Olympics, are now pursuing planning permission and hopes are high the Aces will race into their new home in 2014.Given we're already nearly halfway through 2014, are those hopes still high that the Aces will race into their new home this year ? !!There's a repeated theme here ... the MEN-article from Feb-2012 targeted the 2013 World Cup for the new stadium ... then the forum-thread and press release from Aug-2013 targeted 2014 for Belle Vue racing into their new homw ... now, on the first page of this thread in Jun-2014, we had "Phil The Ace" reporting that "Diggers won't be digging until next year at earliest."There's only so long you can credibly keep raising hopes for "next year" and then switch without any shame to another "next year" when the calendar moves on.

In fact the MEN article from 2013 you copied refers to the construction company, ISG, anticipating the stadium would be ready in 2014. They are obviously experienced in these matters so it is hardly unreasonable that the Belle Vue promotion thought the same.

 

What you seem to fail to grasp is that the development includes much more than the stadium and no matter what Belle Vue do they are also dependent on others, including the council, doing what they have to do. There was also the minor matter of the covenant that was only discovered during due diligence, that required a significant redrawing of the stadium plans.

 

Perhaps, it might help determine the value of your contributions on this topic if you were to enlighten us as to your relevant experience and qualifications in dealing with such matters. You could also explain your justification for your comment that Gordon and Morton are clowns and apparently unfit to run the new stadium when it is built.

[StevePark]

Oh dear, I bet you are one of those pratts who moans about the Elite League not being elite.

 

A completed and vacant sports stadium which already has (apparently) held noisy events like rock concerts and in an ideal location to become the home for a local team without the need for any of the faff Belle Vue have been dealing with for the last few years, is as near to 'on a plate' as you will ever get. I suspect it would only qualify as on a plate to you if someone was to build the track, pits and referees box and then go and pick you up in a limo, drive you to your new home and hand the keys over as you walk down the red carpet!

 

Although you would have not had the help of google maps (lol!) I can just imagine you telling (in a rather irritating pompous voice) the heroes who saved Belle Vue in the late 80s how KL would be completely unsuitable due to noise (the track is virtually in the back gardens of several houses!) disruption and noise from the PA (try telling Iron Maiden to turn the noise down ha ha) every week. Im sure at least one of the original Belle Vue consortium from 1987 would have been rather less polite and rather more forthright to you than I have been, lol!

 

If you are going to name call, at least spell it correctly.

 

It may have held "noisy events like rock concerts" in the past, but 7 months of a noisy event every week, is a bit different to the occasional rock concert.

 

Still..... as Arthur Cross has already said (more than once), it's hardly "on a plate," no matter how you try to "butter it up."

 

Oh, and while we are on, yes, indeed, I am one of those who say the Elite League isn't "Elite." Even more so now that they have National League riders in it.

I don't know Armadale, only what I see on Google, but I don't see a railway line directly alongside the homes and between the homes and stadium, like there is at Ricoh

 

Contradiction? Don't understand where!

 

An assumption, I admit, but you only mentioned viewing the Ricoh and environs on Google and not from having visited the area

 

Apologies. In your post, you mention Armadale. Then on line 2 you mention Coventry. Then in line 3 you say there is no railway line. I (wrongly) assumed you were still talking about the Ricoh, not Armadale.

 

I mention Google Maps as, everyone can go onto it and see the location of the Arena.

 

By the way, for your information, I have visited Armadale on numerous occasions!

Edited June 6, 2014 by Steve Park

[arthur cross]

Perhaps, it might help determine the value of your contributions on this topic if you were to enlighten us as to your relevant experience and qualifications in dealing with such matters. You could also explain your justification for your comment that Gordon and Morton are clowns and apparently unfit to run the new stadium when it is built.

More than 20 years' experience of various sorts of media work (print and broadcast) including coverage of a couple of very successful stadium developments.

 

Last spring's farcical postponement of the Belle Vue v Poole meeting probably qualifies Dave Gordon and Chris Morton for "clown" status on its own but on top of that, there were also two separate occasions a few years apart (and involving different riders) that I was involved in that highlighted their incompetence.

 

By the way, I grasped a long time ago (though not from any information from Belle Vue's end), how much the National Speedway Stadium's wrapped up in a wider development of its proposed site ... that wider angle still isn't anywhere near a good enough reason for me to explain Belle Vue's sluggish and poorly-presented progress.

[The White Knight]

More than 20 years' experience of various sorts of media work (print and broadcast) including coverage of a couple of very successful stadium developments.

 

Last spring's farcical postponement of the Belle Vue v Poole meeting probably qualifies Dave Gordon and Chris Morton for "clown" status on its own but on top of that, there were also two separate occasions a few years apart (and involving different riders) that I was involved in that highlighted their incompetence.

 

By the way, I grasped a long time ago (though not from any information from Belle Vue's end), how much the National Speedway Stadium's wrapped up in a wider development of its proposed site ... that wider angle still isn't anywhere near a good enough reason for me to explain Belle Vue's sluggish and poorly-presented progress.

To be honest - I cannot really understand why you seem so determined to have a go at the people who are Promoting Belle Vue, and attempting to push forward the new Stadium develpement. I think that what they are attempting is wonderful for Speedway, and incidentally, my Team Belle Vue.

 

I think what could apply here is that if you can't find something nice or positive to say - say nothing.