Belle Vue National Stadium

[Halifaxtiger]

On one side we have one of largest Council's in the Land with all the Legal resources you could wish for, and on the other side we have Del Boy and Rodney, with the BSPA and the SS in their corner, now let's see which side come out on top, I know who my money would be on.

 

You'd have lost already.

 

Faced with a counter claim against their demands for rent, the council backed down.

 

You also greatly overrate the council's ability where legal matters are concerned and their willingness to pour a fortune in fees into a case when they are subject to public scrutiny.

 

They can reasonably ignore a small scale publication that represents a minority sport. The Manchester Evening News is very different.

[orion]

 

I don't recall anyone questioning or being critical before the opening night (although I went over about a month before hand and suggested they needed to get a move on). There's a large chunk of this thread missing for some reason, but not one post questions anything up to July 2015.

 

What is clear is that Manchester Council were paying for construction, Belle Vue were not (as such Aces51's analogy of first tenant is almost spot on (the difference being that the tenants had nowhere else to go)). That means that the Aces rights of demanding what should or should not be done were small at best. According to Phil the Ace, Colin Meredith was asked to leave the site by ISG and I have no doubt that he could have been forced.

 

So, its clear that Belle Vue were being prevented from ensuring that the construction was up to scratch and had very little rights in auditing or inspecting the work.

 

Given that that was the case, what should they have done ? Staying at Kirky Land was a non starter, even for part of a season. The only other option (other than moving in) was closure, with the possibility that the stadium would then be taken over by others and speedway booted out for good.

 

So, in a nutshell, what one or two would have done in David Gordon and Chris Morton's shoes is shut the Aces down - quite possibly for a very long time - when they were on the verge of achieving something that was, quite literally, a dream come true and which they had been constantly assured would be completed on time and as per specification.

 

I can just imagine how that would have been perceived by the speedway world.

 

In this case, 'hindsight is a wonderful thing' is neither daft nor inapplicable.

 

 

That's harsh.

 

As I have said, I agree with GC's point that Speedy Star could have had more input into the article from others who were involved. But you simply won't get a balanced report if one party to the dispute refuses to comment.

 

If it comes across as an exercise in vindicating David Gordon, that's not Speedy Star's fault.

Of course it is ..there a millions questions they could have asked Dave Gordon ...but none of them were ever asked ...so yes it there fault if it comes across as vindicating him as that was the whole point in the first place ,it has nothing to do with wanting the truth on trying to be balanced ,

Edited February 16, 2017 by orion

[ouch]

Just read the Speedway Star report on the Belle Vue issues. I'm also disappointed that similar to the Greg Hancock incident in Melbourne we have an article / investigation with one sole voice referenced. The only other reference of the opening night events I've read are those of the clerk of the course for that evening which have been posted on this forum.The 2 versions of events {DG and clerk of course} seem to contradict each other a little. Dave Gordon says "During Saturday 19th March final preparations for the meeting continued and the weather during the day was fine and sunny.But as it turned cold in the evening dampness was drawn up from the sub base which we now know contained a substantial amount of sealed in water ,and up into the shale which made the surface on turns three and four softer and more inconsistent than the rest of the track.

The clerk of the course said " I arrived at 10 am, it was mentioned to me that turns 3 and 4 was not as compact as they would have liked. I walked the track with meeting referee Graham Flint at 1 pm .We walked anti clockwise from bends 1 and the track was very firm until bend 3.At this point although the top layer was dry the track was not completely solid.It seemed there was softer material below the visible track surface.

This seems to indicate that the track was soft on bends 3 and 4 before lunch on the day of the meeting which DG describes as"fine and sunny" and not a result it "turning cold in the evening" as DG describes.

Manchester Evening News quoted "After a few practise laps the riders raised concerns over the 3rd and 4th corners complaining it was too soft"

Yet again with a Speedway Star article / investigation on one of speedway's unfortunate events and you can include Greg Hancock / Gelsenkirsen / Warsaw they are not prepared to ask any difficult questions , just report established facts and one persons testimony

David Gordon was probably informed on the day in the same manner as that recorded by Rachel.

 

Namely.

 

 

If we had any issues during the meeting, he (Colin) had sufficient equipment and staff that he could very quickly bring the rollers onto the track between each heat if necessary.

I walked around the track with the riders to gauge their feelings. Although there were a few concerns, the was no direct negativity and I chatted to a couple of them about grading between every heat if necessary and they all seemed relatively settled.

 

 

Later that afternoon it read.....

 

 

At this point I did not think that there was a real threat that the riders would not ride the track.

 

Later on that evening when environmental conditions changed the minor issues became major.

[SCB]

 

I don't recall anyone questioning or being critical before the opening night (although I went over about a month before hand and suggested they needed to get a move on). There's a large chunk of this thread missing for some reason, but not one post questions anything up to July 2015.

TBF there was lots of cynicism from many people about the whole project. So much so that some loved calling out the cynics and "jealous" people. It was said all along that with the walking disaster than Morton and Gordon had been the previous 10 year the NSS project was in the wrong hands.

 

And so it turned out us cynics were totally right. The whole thing has been a disaster from the start.

[ouch]

Of course it is ..there a millions questions they could have asked Dave Gordon ...but none of them were ever asked ...so yes it there fault if it comes across as vindicating him as that was the whole point in the first place ,it has nothing to do with wanting the truth on trying to be balanced ,

Tell you what, just give me half of 0.001% of those and I'll endeavour to answer them.

[Halifaxtiger]

TBF there was lots of cynicism from many people about the whole project. So much so that some loved calling out the cynics and "jealous" people. It was said all along that with the walking disaster than Morton and Gordon had been the previous 10 year the NSS project was in the wrong hands.

 

And so it turned out us cynics were totally right. The whole thing has been a disaster from the start.

 

Look at this thread (Unfortunately there is a big chunk missing from July 2015 to April 2016).

 

There's an awful lot of people saying it will never happen at all (and one or two recanting when it does).

 

After the announcement that construction will start there's not one post that says it will end in tears.

 

Fast forward to April, and there are dozens that say they knew it all along.

 

But that isn't totally the point here.

 

The real question is in January 2016 what would any of us done in Gordon & Morton's shoes, because the way I see it they had two options : move or close (possibly for a long time or even for good).

Of course it is ..there a millions questions they could have asked Dave Gordon ...but none of them were ever asked ...so yes it there fault if it comes across as vindicating him as that was the whole point in the first place ,it has nothing to do with wanting the truth on trying to be balanced ,

 

If you wanted a biased article, there's no way on this earth you would have continued to approach Manchester City Council for their side of the story.

[The White Knight]

TBF there was lots of cynicism from many people about the whole project. So much so that some loved calling out the cynics and "jealous" people. It was said all along that with the walking disaster than Morton and Gordon had been the previous 10 year the NSS project was in the wrong hands.

 

And so it turned out us cynics were totally right. The whole thing has been a disaster from the start.

You can't say that SCB - there is a first class new Speedway Stadium there for the 'Aces' if some agreement can be reached. DG and CM have both said mistakes were made.

 

The most important thing to remember about the whole issue is that without D. Gordon and C. Morton there would be absolutely NO Stadium for us to be discussing or argueing about.

 

They deserve credit for that.

[orion]

 

Look at this thread (Unfortunately there is a big chunk missing from July 2015 to April 2016).

 

There's an awful lot of people saying it will never happen at all (and one or two recanting when it does).

 

After the announcement that construction will start there's not one post that says it will end in tears.

 

Fast forward to April, and there are dozens that say they knew it all along.

 

But that isn't totally the point here.

 

The real question is in January 2016 what would any of us done in Gordon & Morton's shoes, because the way I see it they had two options : move or close (possibly for a long time or even for good).

 

If you wanted a biased article, there's no way on this earth you would have continued to approach Manchester City Council for their side of the story.

I Remember Matt k and Humprey a etc ASKING plenty questions on how this project could for pay fot itself and plenty thinking that Morton and Gordon were never the people for the project ...and that has shown to be correct ....if it's not a biased article was not ask Chris Morton why he does not want to be part of What Gordon has been saying etc etc why not ask Dave Gordon that question himself ...why not ask Dave Gordon If he way he was not paying rent or riders where was the money going ? .

[KIRKYLANE]

The Arup report which was the INDEPENDENT report on the faulty 3/4 bend has a NDA agreement..... NO DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT

 

The only reason for this can be that MCC do not want it made public.

 

That in itself speaks volumes without it being seen !!!!

[waiheke1]

Great for the sport, assuming the damage of a crowd turning up to a new stadium only for the meeting to be called off isn't long lasting. Not so great for those who put their money into the venture, and have lost their shirts.

 

Heart can't rule the head unless it's money you can afford to lose, and whilst we don't know the full detail of the financial and contractual arrangements, they don't seem to have been on terms that I'd find acceptable.

 

Why would the council object to speedway people asking to inspect a critical component of the whole venture, and one the council would certainly have no experience of building? Even if the promotion only had an advisory role, it might have flagged up the shortcuts that were being taken.

 

I think people on this thread are losing sight of the fact that this was not a typical commercial arrangement.

The council have made an investment in a stadium that could never be justified in commercial terms – but the council is not a profit making organization.

Mort and Gordon as sppedway promoters – well lets face it, no one is going to make a lot of money promoting an EL speedway team are they? They do it because they love the sport.

Accordingly, both sides have probably accepted terms that no commercial organization would

 

I work in the telco industry. If somone came to me with a business case to build a brand new network for a customer, with the network to be leased by a customer, with high credit risk and uncertain future revenues, over a 35 or 60 year period, with no margin, how far do you think that would get? If we somehow decided to do it as a promotional tool or public service, there would certainly be no way we would agree to any LDs –not for direct losses such as additional costs incurred, and even less for “indirect” losses such as lost revenue)- or allow the customer to interfere with the subcontractors during the construction stage (you would when it came to fine tuning the network, which I’d consider the equivalent of the laying of the surface of the track).

 

Similarly, if I was a telco, I’d never agree to a deal where the whole viability of my business plan was dependent on the vendor completing the network ready to go live on a certain date, without having extensive LDs in place in the event the deadline was missed, that would cover me for the losses incurred. However, if I was in a market where there was only one company willing to provide the network on terms I could afford, I’d hardly have a choice. I could either not pursue the business venture – which would be the financially prudent thing to do- or take my chances, knowing a very real risk that I could lose my whole investment.

 

I think we’re all much happier that Mort and Gordon did take the chance, that the sport does now have the NSS in place, rather than see the Aces close, which from posts on here would have been inevitable had they remained at Kirky lane.

[Halifaxtiger]

I Remember Matt k and Humprey a etc ASKING plenty questions on how this project could for pay fot itself and plenty thinking that Morton and Gordon were never the people for the project ...and that has shown to be correct ....if it's not a biased article was not ask Chris Morton why he does not want to be part of What Gordon has been saying etc etc why not ask Dave Gordon that question himself ...why not ask Dave Gordon If he way he was not paying rent or riders where was the money going ? .

 

Go back over the thread and you will find no-one questions it before July 2015. Given that it is after the announcement of construction and indeed after (if memory serves me correctly) work had commenced, you would think there would be.

 

Gordon makes it very clear why he didn't pay the rent. To do so would have been an acceptance that the stadium was fit for purpose and I fail to see what not paying the riders has to do with the construction of the stadium.

 

I repeat : if the article was a put up job to support David Gordon why (repeatedly) ask for the views of the council ?

[ouch]

TBF there was lots of cynicism from many people about the whole project. So much so that some loved calling out the cynics and "jealous" people. It was said all along that with the walking disaster than Morton and Gordon had been the previous 10 year the NSS project was in the wrong hands.

 

And so it turned out us cynics were totally right. The whole thing has been a disaster from the start.

Awful post.

 

I'd rather go through what DG and CM went through to get the NSS. This small minded can't do, sink into the shadows mentality is not for me.

 

I'd love to see a collective of your sort present the Olympic Games opening ceremony. Slipping on a dog turd outside McDonalds whilst complaining about about the lateness of the night bus, to a tune of the latest X factor semi finalist.

What a world you live in.

[orion]

 

 

 

I repeat : if the article was a put up job to support David Gordon why (repeatedly) ask for the views of the council ?

So where is Chris Morton input ? where is the bit about why Morton wanted to distance himself from what happened at Belle Vue speedway this year ...why not ask Gordon why Chris would want to say that ? the bottom line all we have is a piece written from one persons point of view a person who has already found guilty of telling lies in speedway and fined for it written by his mate ....it's a shocker that people take it as some kind of gospel .

[waiheke1]

So where is Chris Morton input ? where is the bit about why Morton wanted to distance himself from what happened at Belle Vue speedway this year ...why not ask Gordon why Chris would want to say that ? the bottom line all we have is a piece written from one persons point of view a person who has already found guilty of telling lies in speedway and fined for it written by his mate ....it's a shocker that people take it as some kind of gospel .

Tbf I think the speedway star showed they were risk averse with the delays printing this, it's hard to think they would have printed without having evidencev thst it is at least sustantively correct.

I know they printed the load of Bollocks Grin came out with last year, but in that case there was no pending legal action, and in fact they could probably have passed it off as a fiction piece.

[SCB]

?

 

To ignore the damage the faulty track and incomplete stadium and blame the promoters is unbelievably stupid, but I understand why you think that way.

 

#sadspeedwayfan

350k a year rent. 1000 fans a meeting to cover the rent. No decent businessman would accept that.

 

Then there was the running a huge meeting that they had managed to sell or without a test meeting before hand. You know, test the work on the stadium that they didn't have access to during the build stage. That's madness.

[Lord Skid]

Too many words, OK so the Rent wasn't paid due to contractual issues, I go along with that, so why were Riders not paid?

[waiheke1]

Too many words, OK so the Rent wasn't paid due to contractual issues, I go along with that, so why were Riders not paid?

Because of the cash flow issues caused by the stadium not being ready, which according to Gordon was an impact of around 650k?

[PHILIPRISING]

I HAVE said all along that it would be for people to make up their own minds and I stand by that. But, for a moment, ignore all the words and what David Gordon had to say, and just look at the two documents we published.

 

The one from MCC to !SG (12/4/16) states quite clearly the faults with the sub-base at the track, that inferior materials were used and the remedial work that was required. It also stipulated that the removed material should be kept for examination. It wasn't. Why? No prizes for guessing.

 

The other document underlines the dis-satisfaction of MCC with ISG because they withheld around £700,000 in payment because of the track defaults and the losses incurred by Belle Vue (Gordon and Morton).

 

We asked MCC what happened to that money and why nothing was offered to Gordon and Morton in compensation as they were the ones who suffered the financial hardship that ensued and subsequently caused them to run up the operating bills that they did. MCC did not reply.

 

Comments about whether the opening meeting should or should not have gone ahead are to a certain extent irreverent. Sooner or later the faults with turns 3/4 would have manifested themselves and this sorry saga would have taken off anyway.

 

As for some of orion's personal comments about me: I barely knew David Gordon before embarking on this project although I have obviously known Chris Morton for donkey's years. Unlike David, Chris wanted to keep a low profile because he hopes to have a continuing role at BV and I sincerely hope that he does.

 

And, incidentally, I have not been editor of Speedway Star for over 20 years.

[arnieg]

So either Manchester City Council

 

a] extracted £690k from ISG that represented losses to their tenant (BV speedway) which they failed to pass on to the injured party; or

 

b] having presented ISG with the claim they failed to extract the money from them.

 

Either way it doesn't paint MCC in a flattering light, and in either case the withholding of rent by DG & CM seems a proportionate response.

 

The politics of this is potentially tricky. On the one hand there is the desire to expose MCC's shortcomings, on the other their is the need to get them to let the stadium to BV 2017. Ultimately the council (or more precisely the senior officers involved) will go for the solution that leaves them with the smallest possible quantum of blame, and that is certainly not a derelict and unlet site.

 

Whether DG & CM get the compensation that is warranted is (I'm afraid to say) very much of an unknown.

Edited February 17, 2017 by arnieg

[waytogo28]

Polarisation is clearly the factor that governs on here wether posters are able to contain themselves to a sensible debate ( where opinions naturally vary enormously ) to a personalised slanging match where rational thought goes out of the window. Clearly DG was liable to be paying something for his use of the NSS ( he did use it to run speedway matches ) and must have known that withholding agreed rent was not going to be accepted either by MCC or the BSPA ( bringing the BSPA into disrepute ). He clearly "lost it" with MCC when his target for litigation should have been ISG and not MCC. Withholding operational payments was never going to solve the problem in the short term. I applaud the BSPA's efforts to get 2017 operational speedway ( and beyond). I remain concerned that as yet we seem nowhere near to having the new promotion confirmed as signing a new lease to make that happen.