womble53 Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Was an even final. Somerset had home track advantage, Edinburgh had the ref advantage anyway IMO as a neutral the ref got it spot on. Being a bit disingenuous there aren't we...........we all know that when it comes to bashing Somerset you're far from neutral Edited July 13, 2014 by womble53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lucan Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 I didnt see the meeting so cant comment on the rights and wrongs of the exclusion. Going with the football comparison we have seen instances where players have missed finals after a yellow card in the semis, Roy Keane missing the champions league final after recieving a yellow Against Juventus for example. But in that case the squad is utilised and a replacement player is brought into the team, albeit a lesser player. That isnt available in speedway and in the case of the pairs the final was over before tapes up. So given the referee cant overlook an exclusion just to give the fans a race would it not be possible for example to have put Morris off 15 meters? Or perhaps have a reserve rider who can be used in the case of exclusions to at least put four riders in a race and avert instances like Friday? Just a thought. Absolutely, sometimes the simplest ideas are the best!! Often wondered why the 15mtr rule is'nt utilised throughout all speedway events if it's available for league matches etc, at least it may have gone some way to appeasing the majority whom wanted a full house racing in the final, trouble is it wasn't, it is'nt so until they amend the rules a little bit it's game over!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monarchlad Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) If you watched Max, in every lap he took the same line at corners 1 and 2 in t he final, even when only three riders.......seems like if it had been any other team apart from the Monarchs, this tread would not be 21 pages long At the end of the day rules are rules, Max never touched Morris, and it was well past the point of being first turn...... Edited July 13, 2014 by Monarchlad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screm Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 I didnt see the meeting so cant comment on the rights and wrongs of the exclusion. Going with the football comparison we have seen instances where players have missed finals after a yellow card in the semis, Roy Keane missing the champions league final after recieving a yellow Against Juventus for example. But in that case the squad is utilised and a replacement player is brought into the team, albeit a lesser player. That isnt available in speedway and in the case of the pairs the final was over before tapes up. So given the referee cant overlook an exclusion just to give the fans a race would it not be possible for example to have put Morris off 15 meters? Or perhaps have a reserve rider who can be used in the case of exclusions to at least put four riders in a race and avert instances like Friday? Just a thought. To put Morris back 15m would've been to invent a rule that isn't there, similarly to introduce a reserve, the exclusion of Morris did make the Final an anti-climax but the referee had to make a decision one way or the other, which he did and IMO rightly exclude Morris. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 But the move started on the first bend with Fricke taking Morris wider & wider and finally straightened up which left Morris nowhere to go, and he had to come down, I am a neutral here but I think the Ref had the option to make it all four back, so after 4 guys racing their hearts out all night, let it be the best TEAM win and the fans get to see a proper final and not an anti climax to the meeting. There is also something in the rules about riders have to race, even when they have already won, the Ref didn't do anything about that, again total inconsistencies by some Refs. The post I made which you have quoted, is Jim McGregor's (the Pairs referee) stance on the incident, and in his opinion it was a clear cut decision to make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 Haven't seen but if the ref had absolutely no other option than to exclude Morris then fair enough. However if there was any doubt at all and even the slightest reason to call all four back then surely he should have taken it? All this talk about Morris throttling off or choosing a different line is great in theory but as soneone has pointed out the margins in speedway are nanoseconds and shutting off in the dirt out wide often results in a speedway bike speeding up. Just a shame the meeting ended in such an unsatisfactory manner, but congrats to Edinburgh nevertheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Nick Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 Maybe because their away form was crap during the other seasons. They get so used to the flat out OTA that they struggle on the technical tracks. Not so sure that's true. The Rebels scored at least 41pts at every away meeting last year, drew at Newcastle, Plymouth and Rye House. That's 3 tracks right there that couldn't be more different to the OTA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble53 Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 there seems to be a lot of somerset supporters on here voicing their opinion about the result of the final or maybe they dont like the fact that the best pair won on the night. why should we change the rules for a televised meeting... it is what it is..speedway.. Typically uninformed comment from yourself Mr J, if you read through the thread, as far as I can see, there is only one ACTUAL Rebels fan making the postings you appear to be referring to..................the rest seem to be keeping a dignified silence..........most of the comments on either side of the arguments are coming, understandably, from Monarchs fans, neutrals, and a few posting to the sound of axe's grinding in the background (if the cap fits Mr J, wear it). people will always do the bare minimum to get the job done and as long as the jobs done , thats ok.....................good to see most of the somerst fans jumping ship when they could not win with 1 rider Without making unjust assumptions, do I take it that you're talking from experience in your first comment, if so your manager must have great fun with your Performance Management Document when it comes up for review. As for the second one, the vast majority of those I saw leaving were neutrals, and as I go to the OTA every week, and am a bit of a social animal at speedway, I have fair knowledge of most of those who attend on a regular basis, even if only by sight..........or do I hear the sound of metal on a grindstone in the background Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon Hammer Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 There is also something in the rules about riders have to race, even when they have already won, the Ref didn't do anything about that, again total inconsistencies by some Refs. In that case Hancock should've been excluded from the SF at Cardiff last night, for not trying to race Tai! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) I WASN'T at Somerset and only managed to catch the Final via a TV set at the Cardiff hotel. According to the letter of the law the referee probably made the right decision but what about the bigger picture? In a nutshell so many of speedway's problems were there for all to see. Some friends who did go say there was a mass exodus before the rerun, which in a Pairs event of that format became virtually a non-event. How many more TV viewers would have turned off. It was the final of a major event but became a massive anti-climax. And how many more fans were lost to the sport? Edited July 13, 2014 by PHILIPRISING 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevueace Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 To put Morris back 15m would've been to invent a rule that isn't there, similarly to introduce a reserve, the exclusion of Morris did make the Final an anti-climax but the referee had to make a decision one way or the other, which he did and IMO rightly exclude Morris. True there is no rule that is in place at the moment but given all the responses on this thread could an introduction of said rule come in to play in future seasons so to eliminate a problem that many people appear to have an issue with? We have seen far more ridiculous rules introduced over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScotsman Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 I WASN'T at Somerset and only managed to catch the Final via a TV set at the Cardiff hotel. According to the letter of the law the referee probably made the right decision but what about the bigger picture? In a nutshell so many of speedway's problems were there for all to see. Some friends who did go say there was a mass exodus before the rerun, which in a Pairs event of that format became virtually a non-event. How many more TV viewers would have turned off. It was the final of a major event but became a massive anti-climax. And how many more fans were lost to the sport? I'm very surprised at you Philip. So you are suggesting we bend (or even break) the rules just because a few people don't like the outcome and might walk away? How many might walk away if we do bend or break the rules?or Should Hancock not have been excluded at Cardiff? Then most people would have been happy with a Tai win. Should a home rider never be excluded? Rules is rules and that's the way it should stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topaz325 Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 The ref made the right call. I think Phil was making a point about the scoring system in the final not the whole meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooksy Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Can somebody clarify the official rule relating to 'all four back'? If the ref really had no option but to disqualify someone, then the right decision was probably made - however much it pains me to say it; but if he did have the option of 'all 4 back' then that was surely the decision to take given the scenario. Surely nobody wants to see such an anti-climatic ending - not even a Scottish referee Edited July 13, 2014 by Barney Rebel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 The scoring system in the final could be 4-2-1-0 that way a reward goes to the rider winning the race and in the event of any exclusion still means there is something to race for in the re-run rather than the farce that was caused the other night in watching Masters poodle round telling Fricke where to ride thus robbing the public of any sort of race Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffeboy Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Ok , the title of the event is "Pairs", to me that means that a each team requires two riders to be competing. If one of the "Pairs" consists of only one rider it ceases to be a Pair.The team that only has one rider has now no chance to win ( unless someone comes off or other such calamity ). There has been a lot of comment about what the ref could or couldn`t do, he did the only thing the rules allowed him to do i.e exclude Nick. I like the person who said on here "its only the Pairs" to the people that attended and were watching on TV I`m guessing it was a bit more than that. We need to change the rules for a Pairs event so that there are always four riders on show.How do you explain what happened on Friday to a new punter who has been following the meeting right through and looking forward to the final , only to see someone come off and be chucked out, shooting in the foot time yet again.The exclusion was fairly clear cut from what I saw,but say there was a doubt, or a bit of contact and Nick had been excluded, result pandemonium. The crowd and the TV audience were deprived over a potentially super final heat because of a bad rule for a "Pairs" event. The chaps in charge need to look at this as has been suggested, 15m handicap or a sub so at least there are four on the track and maybe Speedway can get a bit of credibility back. I am a Rebels supporter and I stayed to the end, thank you Sam for waving at the crowd as you poodled around behind Olly lol, already looking forward to when the Monarchs come to the OTA. Edited July 13, 2014 by Cliffeboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 The scoring system in the final could be 4-2-1-0 that way a reward goes to the rider winning the race and in the event of any exclusion still means there is something to race for in the re-run rather than the farce that was caused the other night in watching Masters poodle round telling Fricke where to ride thus robbing the public of any sort of raceYour scoring system would benefit the best rider in the final, not the best pair, which IMHO would be totally against what a "best pairs"should be about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Man Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 Ok , the title of the event is "Pairs", to me that means that a each team requires two riders to be competing. If one of the "Pairs" consists of only one rider it ceases to be a Pair.The team that only has one rider has now no chance to win ( unless someone comes off or other such calamity ). There has been a lot of comment about what the ref could or couldn`t do, he did the only thing the rules allowed him to do i.e exclude Nick. I like the person who said on here "its only the Pairs" to the people that attended and were watching on TV I`m guessing it was a bit more than that. We need to change the rules for a Pairs event so that there are always four riders on show.How do you explain what happened on Friday to a new punter who has been following the meeting right through and looking forward to the final , only to see someone come off and be chucked out, shooting in the foot time yet again.The exclusion was fairly clear cut from what I saw,but say there was a doubt, or a bit of contact and Nick had been excluded, result pandemonium. The crowd and the TV audience were deprived over a potentially super final heat because of a bad rule for a "Pairs" event. The chaps in charge need to look at this as has been suggested, 15m handicap or a sub so at least there are four on the track and maybe Speedway can get a bit of credibility back. I am a Rebels supporter and I stayed to the end, thank you Sam for waving at the crowd as you poodled around behind Olly lol, already looking forward to when the Monarchs come to the OTA. so would have a rule where all four restart if someone has an EF?, and what about tape offences, or starting offences? after all no pair then is there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) I WASN'T at Somerset and only managed to catch the Final via a TV set at the Cardiff hotel. According to the letter of the law the referee probably made the right decision but what about the bigger picture? In a nutshell so many of speedway's problems were there for all to see. Some friends who did go say there was a mass exodus before the rerun, which in a Pairs event of that format became virtually a non-event. How many more TV viewers would have turned off. It was the final of a major event but became a massive anti-climax. And how many more fans were lost to the sport? What? your saying that Ref should make his call based on what the tv and fans might think or want ? No wonder people think the sport is a joke . I though speedway was a sport not Big Brother ...you post above shows in a nutshell why speedway has so many problems . Edited July 13, 2014 by orion 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffeboy Posted July 13, 2014 Report Share Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) so would have a rule where all four restart if someone has an EF?, and what about tape offences, or starting offences? after all no pair then is there As I said in the post , we need four in the race, so maybe ( Just a suggestion remember ) for an ef / tape offence a reserve comes in, for a fall the rider goes off 15. How good would that last heat have been regardless of what the result may have been if Nick had gone off 15 ! Great entertainment for the crowd and great TV for Sky. If Olly had gated and was in front the Monarchs would have to team ride ( the purpose of Pairs ) to keep him behind, Rebels up to that point had recorded no last places............ Also remember that this is only for the Pairs fixture. Edited July 13, 2014 by Cliffeboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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