Leicester V Lakeside 12 Apr

[The Voice Of Reason]

But surely Raymond, that is not dependent upon the medical advice that was given, but maybe how that assessment was arrived at in the first instance?

 

Speedway Regulations 2014:

 

8.1.1 Riders must be physically and mentally fit and will be disqualified from participating unless pronounced fit by the Medical Officer (MO). MOs must refer to the ACU licensing requirements for reference and if in any doubt, contact the ACU Medical Panel Secretary.

 

Now, if the MO last night did NOT refer to the aforementioned regulation or follow that exact procedure (and in my experience, they haven't got a clue what this is) then surely we have a right to appeal?

 

Just to add that during my time spent in The Lakeside Pits as a Machine Examiner, I cannot recall ANY instance of medical advice being subject to disagreement; by either the rider nor the management.

 

However, in this instance, there appears to be somewhat more to come out in the wash.

Edited April 13, 2014 by The Voice Of Reason

[BTFC LION]

Fact-what would have happened if Ellis was allowed to race in the re-run and something happened to him?

Fact-If a medical person tells me,or even advices me to do something i listen.

Fact-Paramedic who has exper,v a rider just starting out,who would you listen to?

I cant beleive people saying the paramedic is paid by the home team so something dodgy is going on.Medical people ONLY HAVE PEOPLES BEST INTERESTS AT HEART,nothing else comes into it.

 

What would of happened if Ellis had rode against medical advice? Would he of been insured, or would it of been invalid? Lets say Ellis went into the re run and his injury caused him to crash out, If he took out another rider and seriously injured the other rider, then he could be open to all sorts of legal implications!! But who would Lakeside as a club point the finger at then? At a paramedic who did his job, but was ignored? A referee who would of have to of over ruled medical advice to allow him to ride? Or would they stand up and pay out what could be a massive amount of money because of serious injury to another rider !! I know its all what if's, but it could of happened.

[arnieg]

Utter rubbish.

 

In my 30 years of watching speedway I've never seen this occur before where a rider is out on track, ready to race and is prevented from doing so.

I can recall one similar example (this may well be the one in the back of Screamer's mind):

 

2008 King's Lynn at Reading - Kozza Smith was prevented by taking his seventh ride by the paramedic after he had fallen SIX times in his previous six rides.

 

To be honest I can see both sides on this, having seen many riders win races when common sense suggests they should not have come to the tapes.

 

However the rule is that it is the Medical Officer's call. I can see no suggestion that last night's incident was anything other than an application of the rules in the rulebook.

 

That being the case the question is should the rule remain in the rulebook in it's current form?

 

What I do not see is any basis for Lakeside's appeal.

[raymondbudd]

Some good points raised and this will ultimately boil down to the facts of the case. Only a handful of people actually know the facts, so the SCB have a fair bit to sort out with this one. However unless the necessary paperwork is all present and correct, Lakeside may have grounds.

 

On the general point of clinical judgements, this case appears marginal. However the purpose of these rules are to ensure the safety of riders, track officials and the general public. There are probably a stack of past cases where the riders are clearly unfit to continue, yet claim to be okay to do so.

[BluPanther]

Whilst i understand young Adam's desire to carry on, a medical officer must have the final say on rider safety...

[Leicester Lion]

Fact-what would have happened if Ellis was allowed to race in the re-run and something happened to him?

Fact-If a medical person tells me,or even advices me to do something i listen.

Fact-Paramedic who has exper,v a rider just starting out,who would you listen to?

I cant beleive people saying the paramedic is paid by the home team so something dodgy is going on.Medical people ONLY HAVE PEOPLES BEST INTERESTS AT HEART,nothing else comes into it.

I agree with the sentiment (but facts don't have question marks at the end). The medic is the responsible person and the only qualified judge of a rider's fitness to continue to race after sustaining an injury. The referee would be taking a huge risk to overrule a medical opinion. It smacks of sour grapes to bring the medic's integrity into it.

[E I Addio]

And isn't that what it's all about.

 

Lakeside couldn't beat Leicester and didn't get anything out of a match they were clearly expecting to win, it's pure sour grapes.

 

 

As expected the usual tripe from the forums Chief Lakeside Hater, who, like the rest of us wasn't in the pits, doesn't know what was said, doesn't know what procedures were followed or if they were the correct ones, doesn't know what, if any medical checks were carried out or by whom, doesn't know what sort of injury was diagnosed by the medic or whether it was the right diagnosis, doesn't know what was said by Adam or Neil Vatcher, doesn't know the basis of Lakesides appeal, but is somehow still able to conclude it is pure sour grapes.

 

Whether or not the Lakeside appeal has any merit remains to be seen but anyone with reasonable common sense knows that in these tough economic times, cash-strapped clubs don't throw a £500 appeal in unless they feel there is a bit more substance to it than " pure sour grapes".

Utter rubbish.

 

In my 30 years of watching speedway I've never seen this occur before where a rider is out on track, ready to race and is prevented from doing so.

 

All because his shoulder had popped out?

 

Jeez, Tai Woffinden wouldn't be World Champion now if this paramedic had been around.

 

Adam Skornicki's shoulder used to pop out constantly, indeed it popped out mid race once I believe, but he still won and beat Tony Rickardsson in the process!

 

Nonsensical decision.

 

 

Good post . It really highlights that like a lot of things in speedway there is a need for consistency in decisions. If To take it to extremes you could have in theory have a ride pulled out of a meeting just because he is shaken up by a fall, if the medic is overly cautious but others would leave him in. If Tai is able to ride in a GP with broken collarbone when he admits he can feel the bones rubbing together then that standard should apply down the line to other meetings. Can anybody imagine Nicki Pedersen being pulled out while he is still "walking wounded" ?

 

We have seen in the past Kenny Carter racing in so much pain he had to be lifted on and off his bike, and countless other examples. TBF, we don't yet know what injury was diagnosed but unless it was some kind of head injury (which of course one should be very cautious about) its difficult at the moment to see what sort of injury could rule a rider out if he thinks he can cope with the pain.

 

We only have to think back to Bomber in the 2010 play-off final when we were all surprised when he even got off the track, let alone came out and won the re -run and the rest of his races. If he was not pulled out of that meeting its difficult to see why Adam should have been pulled out last night unless there was some very good reason we don't know about.

 

Of course, though this is speedway. OK to run a meeting on a dangerous track to heat11 last September when one club is involved who Sky want in the Play-offs but that doesn't apply to other clubs.

[bigcatdiary]

As expected the usual tripe from the forums Chief Lakeside Hater, who, like the rest of us wasn't in the pits, doesn't know what was said, doesn't know what procedures were followed or if they were the correct ones, doesn't know what, if any medical checks were carried out or by whom, doesn't know what sort of injury was diagnosed by the medic or whether it was the right diagnosis, doesn't know what was said by Adam or Neil Vatcher, doesn't know the basis of Lakesides appeal, but is somehow still able to conclude it is pure sour grapes.

 

Whether or not the Lakeside appeal has any merit remains to be seen but anyone with reasonable common sense knows that in these tough economic times, cash-strapped clubs don't throw a £500 appeal in unless they feel there is a bit more substance to it than " pure sour grapes".

It really highlights that like a lot of things in speedway there is a need for consistency in decisions.

 

 

Whether I was in the pits or not doesn't make any difference, your own web site said Ellis was ruled out of the meeting by the meeting medical officer and referee, that's it, right or wrong.

 

This site exists for supporters to discuss matters, the clue is in the name "Forum"

 

As it stands I wouldn't bet against the SCB awarding Lakeside a point bearing in mind that organisation is known to be as efficient or effective as a chocolate teapot but I stand by what I said earlier if Lakeside had won the meeting no one would have said anything.

 

As for consistency dream on.

[LagutaRacingFan]

Can't believe that there's an actual debate, no point taking any chances.

 

If Leicester paid off the paramedic then surely they would asked him to withdraw PK, Watt and Bridger.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Hougaard Racing Fans

[tyretrax]

I thought it had to be a doctor to have the final say After fully checking over the rider not a paramedic ?

 

Also When Bridger crashed why didn't track staff help him get his bike off the track.

Bikes must be stopped before track staff can venture onto track. 'Elf 'n'safety you know.

[flagrag]

From what I can make out from people in the pits and on here the Lakeside appeal is based upon the fact the paramedic was not the usual Leicester one and he admitted that he did not understand the pressure put on the body for speedway so could only go on his general medical assessment and that of his ambulance technician colleague . Adam tried to prove himself fit but the paramedic was not convinced so withdrew him from the meeting and suggested a hospital check up.

 

Raymond Budd- It seems those rates charged by your company are very reasonable according to my brother in law who is neuro specialist at Queens medical centre in Nottingham are those rates you quoted on evening and weekend work ? As know tracks been quoted lot higher than that for trauma or orthopediac doctor. It also seems other tracks have gone through the wrong agencies who just provide any qualified doctor.

[E I Addio]

Whether I was in the pits or not doesn't make any difference, your own web site said Ellis was ruled out of the meeting by the meeting medical officer and referee, that's it, right or wrong.

 

This site exists for supporters to discuss matters, the clue is in the name "Forum"

 

As it stands I wouldn't bet against the SCB awarding Lakeside a point bearing in mind that organisation is known to be as efficient or effective as a chocolate teapot but I stand by what I said earlier if Lakeside had won the meeting no one would have said anything.

 

As for consistency dream on.

 

 

There are plenty of meetings were an infringement of the rules doesn't result in a protest or appeal because it doesn't affect the result. If Lakeside had won then obviously there would be no point at all in stumping up £500 to lodge an appeal because it would not change the result. That's not a difficult concept to grasp is it ?

 

Yes, it is a Forum and it exists for discussion. The bald statement that it was "pure sour grapes " without any facts to support the conclusion is hardly "discussion" more mud slinging. All a bit childish.

 

The question of the efficiency of the SCB as an organisation is irrelevant at this stage as we don't know how they will handle it although some may say past record suggests there will be no decision until they know what if any effect it may or may not have on play-offs qualifiers, and Sky's approval thereof , but who knows ?

[ColinMills]

the short sightness of using reserves was non sensical right from the outset, its a financial benefit without doubt, it ruins all teams in prem league as they constantly having makeshift sides, its all just mix n match...the crazy suggestion of bringing on brit riders is just an excuse for watering down league, woffy came through the system to be world champ, like in any sport, talent will shine through, and the real star quality performers will make it..until teams go back to having their OWN riders 1-7, this "sport" is forever going to be a laughing stock..my god we even got to a stage with guest managers now!!

[Jonny the spud]

Their own riders as in lakeside asset Adam Ellis ?

[TMW]

Can't wait for the day of reckoning when Lakeside miss out on play off's by 1 point.

 

Can see the appeal being a non starter. You'd be better off spending 500 for shale for your track

[ColinMills]

Their own riders as in lakeside asset Adam Ellis ?

yep, but think you know what i meant!......how many prem teams are turning up with makeshift sides? bank holiday, when "new" fans turn up, are not gonna have a clue on there next visit and see different line ups..its totally farcical, and you can see why papers and news channels dont bother with it

[bigcatdiary]

the short sightness of using reserves was non sensical right from the outset, its a financial benefit without doubt, it ruins all teams in prem league as they constantly having makeshift sides, its all just mix n match...the crazy suggestion of bringing on brit riders is just an excuse for watering down league, woffy came through the system to be world champ, like in any sport, talent will shine through, and the real star quality performers will make it..until teams go back to having their OWN riders 1-7, this "sport" is forever going to be a laughing stock..my god we even got to a stage with guest managers now!!

Of course it's financial benefit, I was told recently that one EL boss refused to pay any more than last year for costs and his promoter then came up with this wonderful plan to save British Speedway plus he had already signed up Ellis.

 

The whole things a crock of $hyte from top to bottom as Poole,s match at BV and the Poole v Lakeside postponement last year proved.

 

Whilst these inept people continue to run our sport it will die on its feet, with many predicting Birmingham not seeing the year out.

[CB252]

Let's face it, Lakeside will get this overturned. Only Poole outrank the Hammers when decisions on dubious appeals are being handed out.

 

Heat 7 was the bigger farce when some pillock using a camera caused three riders to stop and Morley nicked third from Clegg as a direct result.

[Big Al]

So what it sounds like to me from the previous pages, might go something like;

Ref makes a howler and excludes the wrong rider, and doesn't realise or admit it (or if he does, it's too late).

Medic who isn't experienced with sporting injuries and in particular motorcycle sport and by the sound of it wasn't the usual Medic, took an overly cautious decision probably due to that inexperience.

Yes it sounds as if Lakeside would have gained an away point, had those two factors been different. But they wern't, and unfortunately Lakeside will just have to accept that it's happened and if they are going to have an official moan, maybe it should be about the ref?

The other thing to keep in mind, is this little espisode stemmed from an incident involving two riders who are still relatively inexperienced. Whatever the reasons and arguments for and against, the Elite league now contains such riders, and so it is likely that incidents will occur throughout the season, affecting all teams at some point. We just hope that the seriousness of incidents in terms of injury are not high, although sadly there has been a serious one so far. The risk is that these young riders will on occasion, due to the pressure they feel under because of the closeness of the match score, overdo things. The clubs should be more concerned about this and be careful about making public statements such as saying "the team is not performing well enough". We can't wrap them in cotton wool, but it must be remembered they are a very different entity to the guys at 1-5.

[liam]

Sorry I'm getting confused now !!!!

Well you said don't whine when you lose and i said i haven't. Pretty straight forward I think.