Leicester V Lakeside 12 Apr

[ColinMills]

the adam ellis problem with reserves being injured was clearly stated on this forum about these regulations, was obvious these problems would occur with this daft ruling

[Jonny the spud]

But Adam wanted to ride. He was capable of riding. He just wasn't allowed to.

[Aces51]

Surely the Ellis situation is straightforward. Tracks employ a Doctor or Paramedic. They and only they, have the expertise to decide whether a rider is fit to continue in a meeting. It would be foolish for any referee to allow a rider to continue against such advice, can you imagine the reaction and consequences if he did and the rider suffered further injury which could be attributed in whole or, in part, to the original injury.

 

It is true that historically riders have ridden with all sorts of injuries, including broken limbs but whether we like it or not, I suspect we are likely to get more of the Ellis type decisions as the health and safety culture tightens its grip on everything we do. Oh for the days when individuals took responsibility for their own actions.

[Daniel Smith]

Surely the Ellis situation is straightforward. Tracks employ a Doctor or Paramedic. They and only they, have the expertise to decide whether a rider is fit to continue in a meeting. It would be foolish for any referee to allow a rider to continue against such advice, can you imagine the reaction and consequences if he did and the rider suffered further injury which could be attributed in whole or, in part, to the original injury.

It is true that historically riders have ridden with all sorts of injuries, including broken limbs but whether we like it or not, I suspect we are likely to get more of the Ellis type decisions as the health and safety culture tightens its grip on everything we do. Oh for the days when individuals took responsibility for their own actions.

When you say historically what do you mean? Even today track doc's normally only advise except for concussion on a withdrawal. What happened with Ellis isn't the norm hence why Lakeside are making the compliant I should imagine

[Catalan]

I thought it had to be a doctor to have the final say After fully checking over the rider not a paramedic ?

Also When Bridger crashed why didn't track staff help him get his bike off the track.

Regulation 8.4.1 states the Chief Medical Officer will be a Doctor or Paramedic.

[TMW]

I've not whined at all have i? I've just defended our management.

Sorry I'm getting confused now !!!!

[Aces51]

When you say historically what do you mean? Even today track doc's normally only advise except for concussion on a withdrawal. What happened with Ellis isn't the norm hence why Lakeside are making the compliant I should imagine

By historically I mean prior to yesterday. Doctors and Paramedics are like any other profession, there are good, bad and indifferent but in today's culture it would be foolish for any referee to overrule their advice.

 

 

Can you imagine, a rider dislocates his shoulder, it is popped back in. The medic advises he shouldn't race again but the referee decides otherwise. In his next race it pops out again, he losses control and wipes out another rider with fatal consequences for that other rider. No sensible referee would take that risk faced with professional medical advice, no matter what he as a layman might think about it.

 

Fortunately, many tracks have medics they have used for many years, who understand the sport and it's culture. Unfortunately, with today's health and safety culture it is going to be a potential problem whenever medics unused to the sport are used.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Aces51

[TMW]

TMW - yes, fair point.

 

However, as I said, given Lewis's last ride (too little, too late in many respects) I can fully see Neil Vatcher's logic. I truly believe he made the right call AT THE TIME.

 

And who knows; Richard Lawson may have sneezed or farted in the pits, and was subsequently ruled out of the meeting by the 'wrap them all in cotton wool' brigade.

Still nothing on ht 7 though. Lakeside supporters keeping strangely reserved on that one. Oh yes cos it was a gifted point. Edited April 13, 2014 by TMW

[Daniel Smith]

By historically I mean prior to yesterday. Doctors and Paramedics are like any other profession, there are good, bad and indifferent but in today's culture it would be foolish for any referee to overrule their advice.

Can you imagine, a rider dislocates his shoulder, it is popped back in. The medic advises he shouldn't race again but the referee decides otherwise. In his next race it pops out again, he losses control and wipes out another rider with fatal consequences for that other rider. No sensible referee would take that risk faced with professional medical advice, no matter what he as a layman might think about it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the referee has a say are they?

As with all crashed, if a rider deems themselves fit except for concussion they always continue. It always has and always should be the case. Adam deemed himself fit to continue and the track doc should not interfere only advise.

[BWitcher]

And isn't that what it's all about.

 

Lakeside couldn't beat Leicester and didn't get anything out of a match they were clearly expecting to win, it's pure sour grapes.

Utter rubbish.

 

In my 30 years of watching speedway I've never seen this occur before where a rider is out on track, ready to race and is prevented from doing so.

 

All because his shoulder had popped out?

 

Jeez, Tai Woffinden wouldn't be World Champion now if this paramedic had been around.

 

Adam Skornicki's shoulder used to pop out constantly, indeed it popped out mid race once I believe, but he still won and beat Tony Rickardsson in the process!

 

Nonsensical decision.

[Shirl]

Last night was a farce to be honest.

I really don't know the extent of Adam's problem; suffice to say he came back out very quickly, and was at the tapes, ready to race. And, let's be honest about this, most riders have, and always, will do the same if they are able. And to answer points above about adrenaline; other riders' safety, etc.

- So are we now saying then that prior to each meeting, every rider should now have a full medical assessment in order to prove themselves 100% fit?

- Are we saying that riders should not be riding if they are recovering from a recent injury? Or if, as often happens, with certain limbs in plaster/support, etc. as they could be a danger to others?

- Are we saying that if a rider falls off/crashes during any meeting, he should be deemed unfit to ride for the rest of the night in case he suffers delayed concussion, or is in pain, etc?

Utter cods wallop. This is Speedway.

Now, for the referee - Peter Clarke. In Heat 9, Most referees would have declared that race a restart with all four riders. In particular, bear in mind, it was also the reserves race - so it makes common sense to allow some degree of error from the younger guys new to this game. NOT ONE of the riders, not Clegg, Perry, Morley nor Ellis held their racing line going into the first turn. Ellis was clearly going in too hard, appeared to lock up and went rather spectacularly over his handlebars, collecting the machine on his way down. Meanwhile, Ben Morley, who was BEHIND Adam Ellis clearly tried to lay his bike down to avoid hitting Adam.

Mr. Clarke - how in this world, with your obvious knowledge of this sport, could you have decreed Ben Morley to have been the primary cause of that stoppage? It truly beggars belief. If you were not going to give a re-run with all four, then why didn't you exclude Ellis instead of Morley? Because you probably got the two riders confused, and were not man enough to go back on your decision once it was probably pointed out to you.

So therefore, we had a re-run with just the two Leicester reserves. If Ben had been allowed to race in Heat 9, a 5-0 would have become (at worst) a 5-1, and Lakeside would have subsequently earned an away point.

Well done to Leicester as they don't have a team of superstars - but they all chip away and score points.

Congratulations also to Leicester as a Speedway Club. The track improvements have produced a very fair racing circuit conducive to good speedway and overtaking. And it appeared to be a very healthy gate too.

I genuinely wish you every success this season.

However, through no fault of yours, we WERE robbed of an away point last night due to what appears to be over-zealous medical staff and a referee that made a very poor call.

 

Lionking - with all due respect, a popped out shoulder can be quite easily (albeit painfully) popped back in. It's happened through the ages in countless meetings. I have never known a rider to be ruled as unfit following this procedure.

And if you are inferring that we are poor losers, I'd have to strongly disagree with that statement. Doubt it? Take a look back as recently as last season. Many of us feel we let Poole and Kings Lynn get away with utterly pathetic excuses of why they didn't want to ride against us - due to being under-strength. On both occasions, we took it on the chin.

I can appreciate anyone not liking our track, facilities or other aspects of our club. But one thing I will not agree with is us being deemed 'bad losers'.

And nobody that I have spoken to perceives you as being a 'little club', here to prop up the rest. And whilst you are more than welcome in The Elite League, I would suggest that you do some homework and learn a little about your competition before making such crass, Ill-founded remarks about us not playing this game with a straight bat; or considering others as scapegoats. We treat ALL competition with respect - both ON and OFF the track; rider or supporter.

Notwithstanding this, as a direct result of errors last night, we lost (what could be at the end of the season) a very important away point. We have, as a Club, EVERY RIGHT to appeal decisions we feel were made in poor judgement. Your Club has exactly those same rights.

Don't take it personally as these complaints are not being aimed at Leicester Speedway Club; rather at officials who clearly do not recognise how to carry out their duties in a responsible, and fair, manner.

I wasn't at the meeting last night so cannot pass judgement but surely it's down to the rider,the medical staff can recommend that a rider is unfit but if Adam Ellis felt ok to continue then he should have been allowed to.

Great post though voice of reason.

The usual Leicester threads tend just to bark on about the track (too slick,wrong shape) and the management,so thanks for that!

 

Good luck to you for the rest of the season

 

Shirl

Edited April 13, 2014 by Shirl

[BWitcher]

Richard was consistent throughout the meeting and Richard also beat Doyley in Heat 1. I feel that Lewis had one good ride out of four on the night and therefore should have not been selected to be in Heat 15.

 

Heat 1..

 

Decent call from the management as Bridger had won Heat 13.. Heat 1 is an age ago. Riders adapt to conditions, alter setups etc as the meeting goes on.

 

Incidentally, another interesting to see comments from Graham Jones on Facebook. Having arrived at Leicester to assist Tom Perry and Max Clegg whom he works closely with he was refused admission by the Leicester pit gate crew.

 

Disgraceful way to treat a loyal servant to British Speedway.

[Shirl]

if it was that grippy then why wasn't there any overtaking ?

I have seen speedway for far too many years to know that was Not grippy last night,the shape is and always will be the problem for most riders.

The problem is if people don't see racing with overtaking they will go elsewhere,the novelty of going into the EL has clearly gone,there were plenty of spaces by the fence to stand last night.

Leicester is gate and win 99% of the time,that's Not speedway.

Think it must be time for my Sunday afternoon snooze

[flagrag]

I think it is a little wrong for some fans to suggest that the Leicester club had any part in Adam Ellis being withdrawn from the meeting as I am sure Jonny the Spud will confirm no Leicester riders,promotors or manager said that he should be withdrawn to try and get a home win.

 

The facts are that Adam unfortunately picked up an injury and was obviously in pain I witnessed that myself from the back straight with the grimace on his face and my first thoughts were broken collarbone or dislocated shoulder. The paramedic who i must add was not the usual guy that does Leicester was then was asked to look at Adam the medic then took a decision in his professional opinion Adam should not race anymore that meeting to guarantee his and other riders safety. It does appear that he may have been very cautious on this and Adam tried to prove him wrong but the medic was never likely to change his decision as would then question his medical integrity.

 

The question about where was the track doctor is not relevant as in fact most clubs now use paramedics as the authorised medical cover due to a few reasons unless you are fortunate like Workington,Poole,Newcastle and Coventry who have doctors that are Speedway fans .If clubs had to get and pay for a DR this would be very costly and could be as much 3 times more as expensive as a paramedic all adding to the meeting costs .

 

The other thing is sourcing a DR you would have to go to an agency and there has been some bad instances over the years of not knowing what you are getting as these are just DRs looking to make some extra money in their free time, there has been times when there has been Gyno DRs,cancer ones and GPs in their 60s allocated to speedway meetings where as paramedics deal with emergency medicine and practice on a day in day out basis with trauma injuries and can do everything a DR can other than i think medically sedate them e.g put them in a coma.

One of the above doctors may not have done this this type of medicine for 10-15 years since training in an A&E department as onc they go into their area of specialism don't go back to trauma care.

I have also heard from various officials that DRs tend to be very protective over the patients and often insist on accompanying the riders to hospital causing delays to meetings where as paramedics which will be happy to just hand over the injured rider to a county crew so the meeting can continue faster.

[Sophies Mate]

With regard to a 'popped out shoulder' the paramedic can only put it back if it has happened a few times before but not every paramedic is willing to do so due to the fact that they could do more harm than good and if its the first time its happened on the shoulder in question then no paramedic will attempt to pop it back into place and will recommend a trip to hospital. Most UK tracks have paramedics and not doctors and yes they are paid by the home team and are not likely to be biased at the end of the day these are professional people who deal with these kind of injuries on a regular basis whether its on a speedway track or on the road or in other situations and should not be pressurised to pass a rider fit when in his professional opinion he clearly isn't. Its not easy being on the medical team at a speedway track and decision's that mean declaring a rider is unfit to ride are not usually done without careful assessment.

[bigcatdiary]

Utter rubbish.

 

In my 30 years of watching speedway I've never seen this occur before where a rider is out on track, ready to race and is prevented from doing so.

 

All because his shoulder had popped out?

 

Jeez, Tai Woffinden wouldn't be World Champion now if this paramedic had been around.

 

Adam Skornicki's shoulder used to pop out constantly, indeed it popped out mid race once I believe, but he still won and beat Tony Rickardsson in the process!

 

Nonsensical decision.

Firstly I have seen several riders put their own shoulder back in after dislocating it, Crump being the best example and using the safety fence to do it, but at the end of the day if the doctor or paramedic rules a rider out of a meeting I don't see any referee overruling him or her and allowing him to race on, it just isn't going to happen in this day of health and safety.

 

Secondly if Lakeside had won this meeting nothing would have been said, lots of times team results are affected by decisions off track, in this sport it happens all the time especially with the crock of $hyte we call a rulebook.

 

As for Nonsensical decisions this sport is full of them and happen on a weekly basis, while we continue with the idiots running this sport nothing will change, with the ERC and Havelocks Testimonial date being the classic examples this year so far.

[speedwaysliders]

Fact-what would have happened if Ellis was allowed to race in the re-run and something happened to him?

Fact-If a medical person tells me,or even advices me to do something i listen.

Fact-Paramedic who has exper,v a rider just starting out,who would you listen to?

I cant beleive people saying the paramedic is paid by the home team so something dodgy is going on.Medical people ONLY HAVE PEOPLES BEST INTERESTS AT HEART,nothing else comes into it.

[The Voice Of Reason]

Take your points BUT I don't think anyone knows for certain that Adam's injury was a popped-out shoulder. I think that's only speculation - that some of us have subsequently commented upon.

 

Added to which, even if it was, someone must have popped it back in place because Adam flew out the pits to take part in Heat 9; hitting the 3rd/4th bends very quickly to get to the tapes.

 

The bottom line is that this is Speedway. And whilst we, maybe more than any other club in recent times, are more than conscious of the need for safety (having had to cope with the loss of our Rico) the fact remains that Speedway IS, and always has been, a dangerous sport - and it takes pretty hard guys to make it what it is. If we start adopting a mamby-pamby approach to the sport, or medical staff are fearful of a blame culture emerging, then it really will be the beginning of the end.

 

And the fact remains that if Adam was not fit to ride, then despite his own self-assessment of his condition, our pretty level-headed management would not have allowed him to ride if there was a risk to others; or indeed himself.

Edited April 13, 2014 by The Voice Of Reason

[raymondbudd]

As both a speedway fan and a director of a clinical care company this does seem rather an odd one. I mean odd in the fact that Lakeside are formally complaining to the SCB. If the formal clinical view at the time was that the rider couldn't proceed, then Lakeside don't have a leg to stand on. Frankly it's bizarre that they would challenge this view,. In which case one can only assume that there maybe more to it. Given that non of us were either in the pits or at trackside, it's very difficult to judge what really went on.

 

On the issue go cost, the going rate for a specialist consultant is around £100 p/h. However an experienced registrar grade comes in around £55 p/h. The point raised about not knowing what type of Dr you would get is rather odd, any client booking a Dr would specify what speciality is required.

[TMW]

 

Also When Bridger crashed why didn't track staff help him get his bike off the track.

Nice one bob72.........you've surpassed yourself

 

because they aren't allowed on the trsck till the redlight goes on yoi spoon.

 

You're trying to compare appl

es and oranges. Gifted points happen in a lot of meetings, that's just the nature of speedway.

 

The situation when a rdier is injured at the expense of another's exclusion and can't take part is totally different. It was bound to happen at some stage this season affecting a reserve, and now it's happened has also had an impact on the result.

So giftrd points are ok if gifted to Lakeside but if the decision goes in favor of opposition then not. Got ya