What Happens When A Rider Is Missing?

[Vincent Blachshadow]

That is my understanding that no apparent final decision has yet been made. If they stick with the original ruling then for example if Peter Ljung was missing for Leicester 3 of his rides would have to be taken by Perry and Clegg. Not sure having races where these 2 basically juniors ending up having to face Iversen/Bjerre/Schlein will do a lot to enhance the sport. By having the reserves in protected races was an admission that they couldn't be expect to compete with the likes of Ward/Woffinden, so suddenly expecting them to take R/R rides would be nonsensical.

 

We have been 'reliably' informed on here that this will not happen, that no way will a reserve face a #1.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Vincent Blackshadow

[waiheke1]

 

We have been 'reliably' informed on here that this will not happen, that no way will a reserve face a #1.

Not true. We've been told they wont have any of their scheduled rides against heat leaders.

But r/r rides or as replacement for tape offences, there is no way to avoid them meeting heat leaders without a major overhaul of the rules.

[Vincent Blachshadow]

Not true. We've been told they wont have any of their scheduled rides against heat leaders.

But r/r rides or as replacement for tape offences, there is no way to avoid them meeting heat leaders without a major overhaul of the rules.

 

Yes, I accept that. I queried this and, once again, was told in no uncertain terms that reserves won't meet #1s at all. I did ask where I/we could see this but was informed it was a work in progress and won't happen.

 

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=75437&page=13

 

Starts at post 191, but post 208 tells us in no uncertain terms it won't happen.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Vincent Blackshadow

[waiheke1]

 

Yes, I accept that. I queried this and, once again, was told in no uncertain terms that reserves won't meet #1s at all. I did ask where I/we could see this but was informed it was a work in progress and won't happen.

 

http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=75437&page=13

 

Starts at post 191, but post 208 tells us in no uncertain terms it won't happen.

Yes, but I think the fact you were told this does not necessarily mean thats the case. I suspect tsunami didn't read your second post correctly. For it to be impossible for a reserve to meet a number 1, the rules would have to prohibit a reserve from being able to replace a top 5 member even in the event of injury or tape infringement- I cant imagine that will be the case

[Astill lodge lion]

Leicesters biggest problem is when their fixtures clash with Cradley because both their reserves Max Clegg & Tom Perry ride for the same team in NL. Which would mean DOUBLE guest at reserve.

I don't think this is the case. Jon Cook said a few months back :-

priority for 2014 is now with the owning club in ELvPL clashes, if neither own rider then PL comes 1st. ELvNL is EL 1st.

 

Which says to me that EL teams always take priority over the NL even if the rider is an asset of the NL team.

[ballinger]

There's so much that needs consideration with the new EL format this season. Protected races for 6 & 7 meaning more Heat Leaders vs Heat Leaders races is just one element.

 

Personally I see the requirement for the 5th rider (by CMA) to be a type of supplementary reserve that can come in the event of a tape break / 2 min exclusion.

 

Should 5,6,or 7 break tape then only option would be 15m handicap.

 

In the event of a DU rider missing then only viable option IMO is a guest, or maybe 2 riders share a DU position like it was in the past.

 

With regards to what happens in the event of an injury, how's about this.

 

Riders 1 or 2 - RR covered by any other rider, each eligible to take 1 RR ride

 

Rider 3 - covered by 2,4,5 with 4 and 5 eligible for 2 RR rides

 

Rider 4 - covered by 3 (1 ride) and 5 (3 rides)

 

Rider 5 - 2 rides covered by 4 and 2 rides covered by 6 or 7

 

Whilst I agree totally that this last scenario isn't ideal I cannot see any other solution.

 

In the following example therefore, using Wolverhampton. Their 5th rider by CMA is Jacob Thorsell. Assuming Heat leaders are riding at team positions 1,3,& 5, Thorsell will line up at 2 or 4.

 

Assuming he crashes out in his first ride, which we will assume is still Heat 1, he isn't excluded from the race, just withdraws injured. His rides could then be covered by RR as follows.

 

1st ride (against opposition 1&2) - Rider 4 by CMA which I believe is Ricky Wells

 

2nd ride (against opposition 2 and 7 - ie the old Heat 8) replaced by rider 6 (Ash Morris)

 

3rd ride (against opposition 3&4 - ie the old Heat 10) - replaced by rider 4 by CMA (Ricky Wells)

 

4th ride (against a SS and a reserve) - replaced by rider 6 or 7

 

Because of this requirement to implement immediate RR once a meeting is underway I would suggest that any rider absence pre meeting has to be covered by a guest, or maybe even by another squad rider if teams ever decide to go down that route

Edited February 13, 2014 by ballinger

[g13webb]

There's so much that needs consideration with the new EL format this season. Protected races for 6 & 7 meaning more Heat Leaders vs Heat Leaders races is just one element.

 

Personally I see the requirement for the 5th rider (by CMA) to be a type of supplementary reserve that can come in the event of a tape break / 2 min exclusion.

 

Should 5,6,or 7 break tape then only option would be 15m handicap.

 

In the event of a DU rider missing then only viable option IMO is a guest, or maybe 2 riders share a DU position like it was in the past.

 

With regards to what happens in the event of an injury, how's about this.

 

Riders 1 or 2 - RR covered by any other rider, each eligible to take 1 RR ride

 

Rider 3 - covered by 2,4,5 with 4 and 5 eligible for 2 RR rides

 

Rider 4 - covered by 3 (1 ride) and 5 (3 rides)

 

Rider 5 - 2 rides covered by 4 and 2 rides covered by 6 or 7

 

Whilst I agree totally that this last scenario isn't ideal I cannot see any other solution.

 

In the following example therefore, using Wolverhampton. Their 5th rider by CMA is Jacob Thorsell. Assuming Heat leaders are riding at team positions 1,3,& 5, Thorsell will line up at 2 or 4.

 

Assuming he crashes out in his first ride, which we will assume is still Heat 1, he isn't excluded from the race, just withdraws injured. His rides could then be covered by RR as follows.

 

1st ride (against opposition 1&2) - Rider 4 by CMA which I believe is Ricky Wells

 

2nd ride (against opposition 2 and 7 - ie the old Heat 8) replaced by rider 6 (Ash Morris)

 

3rd ride (against opposition 3&4 - ie the old Heat 10) - replaced by rider 4 by CMA (Ricky Wells)

 

4th ride (against a SS and a reserve) - replaced by rider 6 or 7

 

Because of this requirement to implement immediate RR once a meeting is underway I would suggest that any rider absence pre meeting has to be covered by a guest, or maybe even by another squad rider if teams ever decide to go down that route

 

Are we to believe the above post is close to the actual rules, if so I thank you for answering quite a few questions.

 

Now what about the moving of riders positions once the averages change???

Edited February 14, 2014 by GRW123

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

A lot of talk about protecting the reserves from heat leaders but I have concerns along similar lines-

 

Protecting a weaker No7 from a strong No6.

 

With the rationale for this change(allegedly) being rider development it would wrong to allow one to replace the other in the 2 non reserve races.

 

To do so would only give further advantage to those teams with the strongest picks.

[Tom Turner]

This whole sport is in a very sorry state. I'm barely keeping up now after 10 years of being an avid speedway fan. I dread to think how difficult confusing stupid this sport must be for newcomers.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Colonel

[waiheke1]

This whole sport is in a very sorry state. I'm barely keeping up now after 10 years of being an avid speedway fan. I dread to think how difficult confusing stupid this sport must be for newcomers.

Do you really think a newcomer cares about the nuances of race formats, averages and team building? I think they couldn't care less, and its only the die hard speedway fsns who do. Newcomers imho just want a good nighrs entertainment in a stafium with decent atmosphere, for a reasonable price.

[Tom Turner]

Do you really think a newcomer cares about the nuances of race formats, averages and team building? I think they couldn't care less, and its only the die hard speedway fsns who do. Newcomers imho just want a good nighrs entertainment in a stafium with decent atmosphere, for a reasonable price.

 

I cared when I started attending speedway. I took great fascination in learning the ins and outs of the sport as without knowing the rules it doesn't make much sense to anyone? Just try explaining home and away scoring to a newcomer...

[waiheke1]

I cared when I started attending speedway. I took great fascination in learning the ins and outs of the sport as without knowing the rules it doesn't make much sense to anyone? Just try explaining home and away scoring to a newcomer...

Surely they must be a bit thick if they cant understand the home and away scoring? Its not rocjet science, and no more complex than that used in various rugby, cricket etc. Comps.

[pete cc]

as usual i ask 1 question and get 32 different answers. Thats speedway.

[g13webb]

Do you really think a newcomer cares about the nuances of race formats, averages and team building? I think they couldn't care less, and its only the die hard speedway fsns who do. Newcomers imho just want a good nighrs entertainment in a stafium with decent atmosphere, for a reasonable price.

 

This is where the problems may lie. Surely you must be able to understand the sport, before you can enjoy the atmosphere and excitement, and the cost has to be relevant to that excitement. By dismissing 'Newcomers' from the equation, we have to ask ourselves where are the next generation of supporters coming from.

 

The sport, 4 riders racing each other for 4 laps on bikes with no brakes, is in affect a simple, straight forward idea, its the rules that make it complicated.

It is my belief that these, ever changing rules are the main reasons behind the poor attendances. We have no continuality that the supporter can relate with.

[T.N.T.]

Kind of. Before or during the meeting if a rider is missing it's the next above and all below in the averages that can take a ride.

 

If top or 2nd in averages, the remaining riders can replace these rides

If 3rd in averages, 2nd and below can take a ride

If 4th in averages, 3rd and below can take a ride

 

and so on

 

The only notible change from last season is R/R comes into force for a rider withdrawn from a meeting already started, removing the need for a No'8 rider

 

 

With R/R coming into force with a rider withdrawn from the meeting, you can see his being used a few times to gain advanage.

 

For example only ......

 

Poole (don't know why I use them but ...... ) If Josh Gracjzonek is sudenly withdrawn from the meeting having ridden two pointless rides, Poole ould then use Maciej Janowski and Vaclav Milik (both scoring well) in his remaining rides !!!

 

Can see a few strained freckles or fractured fingernails ruling out a rider strugglingon the night being rested in tight matches in order to gain an advantge. Also these riders could possiblybe used as a tactical ride so in the example, Poole are 10 points down at Eastbourne where Kim Nilsson and Lewis Blackbird are set to face Josh and Kyle Newman.

 

Josh is ruled out with a sprained eyelash and in comes Magi as r/r and also tactical

 

 

NOTE; ...... This is only an EXMPLE and names of riders and club are only that and I'm not saying this will happen when such serious injuries like those listed occur !!

[INCOGNITO]

In theory this is a good idea but it needs a few things putting in place first.

 

 

If a rider is ruled out of the meeting in his first ride through no fault of his own then r/r should be used. However if he has taken a ride then the rider above should not be able to take a ride.

[barrow boy]

With R/R coming into force with a rider withdrawn from the meeting, you can see his being used a few times to gain advanage.

 

For example only ......

 

Poole (don't know why I use them but ...... ) If Josh Gracjzonek is sudenly withdrawn from the meeting having ridden two pointless rides, Poole ould then use Maciej Janowski and Vaclav Milik (both scoring well) in his remaining rides !!!

 

Can see a few strained freckles or fractured fingernails ruling out a rider strugglingon the night being rested in tight matches in order to gain an advantge. Also these riders could possiblybe used as a tactical ride so in the example, Poole are 10 points down at Eastbourne where Kim Nilsson and Lewis Blackbird are set to face Josh and Kyle Newman.

 

Josh is ruled out with a sprained eyelash and in comes Magi as r/r and also tactical

 

 

NOTE; ...... This is only an EXMPLE and names of riders and club are only that and I'm not saying this will happen when such serious injuries like those listed occur !!

But when this idea was first suggested by a promoter it was only to apply if a top rider was unable to continue after his first ride so it could not be used as a tactic. Only an aid to a weakened team.

[bigcatdiary]

So if rider is having an off day could he just claim he is not fit, withdraw after his third ride let the rider above him in the averages take his fourth ride.

 

Or if he is having a really off day they can pull him out after 2 rides and use two others who are riding well.

 

Yep I am quite sure this won't be abused like everyone else, anyone of these bright sparks owning up to having thought up this genius of an idea.

 

And people wonder why this sport isn't taken seriously.

[SteveLyric2]

 

 

With R/R coming into force with a rider withdrawn from the meeting, you can see his being used a few times to gain advanage.

 

For example only ......

 

Poole (don't know why I use them but ...... ) If Josh Gracjzonek is sudenly withdrawn from the meeting having ridden two pointless rides, Poole ould then use Maciej Janowski and Vaclav Milik (both scoring well) in his remaining rides !!!

 

Can see a few strained freckles or fractured fingernails ruling out a rider strugglingon the night being rested in tight matches in order to gain an advantge. Also these riders could possiblybe used as a tactical ride so in the example, Poole are 10 points down at Eastbourne where Kim Nilsson and Lewis Blackbird are set to face Josh and Kyle Newman.

 

Josh is ruled out with a sprained eyelash and in comes Magi as r/r and also tactical

 

 

NOTE; ...... This is only an EXMPLE and names of riders and club are only that and I'm not saying this will happen when such serious injuries like those listed occur !!

Very poor example!! Why on earth would you think Magic will be available to ride at Eastbourne?? Even if he's there, Josh with a 'sprained eyelash' would still be a better bet!!!!

[Barney Rabbit]

 

 

With R/R coming into force with a rider withdrawn from the meeting, you can see his being used a few times to gain advanage.

 

For example only ......

 

Poole (don't know why I use them but ...... ) If Josh Gracjzonek is sudenly withdrawn from the meeting having ridden two pointless rides, Poole ould then use Maciej Janowski and Vaclav Milik (both scoring well) in his remaining rides !!!

 

Can see a few strained freckles or fractured fingernails ruling out a rider strugglingon the night being rested in tight matches in order to gain an advantge. Also these riders could possiblybe used as a tactical ride so in the example, Poole are 10 points down at Eastbourne where Kim Nilsson and Lewis Blackbird are set to face Josh and Kyle Newman.

 

Josh is ruled out with a sprained eyelash and in comes Magi as r/r and also tactical

 

 

NOTE; ...... This is only an EXMPLE and names of riders and club are only that and I'm not saying this will happen when such serious injuries like those listed occur !!

 

 

The person having the final say as to which rider pulling out of a meeting can be replaced by R/R must be unbiased with no allegiance to any team and that can only be the referee. That's why only a rider crashing out in an incident for which an opponent is excluded should be covered by that rule. Okay, it can still be taken advantage of if said rider isn't actually injured but having a 'mare, but that's hard luck - don't knock opponents off their machines.

I would add, though, that once replaced by R/R the rider can't take a subsequent ride.