Speedway Star Toothless Pussycat

[ColinMills]

your point is?

bbc2 hits a way bigger audience 4 million..what does sky attract? wasn't talking bout the standard of darts, was talking bout

audience figures....does darts not get bigger press than speedway?..but hey, if you know nothing, don't bother replying

[oldace]

your point is?

bbc2 hits a way bigger audience 4 million..what does sky attract? wasn't talking bout the standard of darts, was talking bout

audience figures....does darts not get bigger press than speedway?..but hey, if you know nothing, don't bother replying

Using your logic bdo darts is more succesful than the FA premier league if we are using respective tv audiences as the yardstick

[Humphrey Appleby]

Well take a look for yourself over the course of the season. Go to cardiff for the gp then follow it up with a trip to a typical elite league match. Then let me know whether the presentation is any different at the two

 

Yes, but that would not be difficult. I'm not convinced that the SGP has done for speedway what Ally Pally and the like has done for darts, or what Superleague has done for rugby.

[ColinMills]

Using your logic bdo darts is more succesful than the FA premier league if we are using respective tv audiences as the yardstick

it was stated (if you read it S-L-O-W-L-Y, bdo was dead in the water..i just pointed out, it still attact a bigger audience than the pdc,,

and darts get better coverage in press than speedway, so before you accuse me of knowing jack s**t as you politely put it, think before you bother to post!!

[oldace]

it was stated (if you read it S-L-O-W-L-Y, bdo was dead in the water..i just pointed out, it still attact a bigger audience than the pdc,,

and darts get better coverage in press than speedway, so before you accuse me of knowing jack s**t as you politely put it, think before you bother to post!!

Do a little research pn the state of the bdo pre 1994. The formation of the wdc actually forced olly croft to grudgingly move the bdo on, albeit on a much smaller scale ghan the, by now, pdc. Had the breakaway not happened its a near certainty that pro darts would not have existed as it does today

 

Yes, but that would not be difficult. I'm not convinced that the SGP has done for speedway what Ally Pally and the like has done for darts, or what Superleague has done for rugby.

 

I would suggest that the old world finals were akin to the bdo, a reiic of a bygone era dying on its bacside. Bsi did for the sgp what hearn did for the pdc but on a lesser scale

Edited February 4, 2014 by Oldace

[StevePark]

 

Or take yourself back to the days when on the way back from Cardiff you stopped off at Newport for the Welsh Whateveritwas.

 

We used to go to Carmarthen instead.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I would suggest that the old world finals were akin to the bdo, a reiic of a bygone era dying on its bacside. Bsi did for the sgp what hearn did for the pdc but on a lesser scale

 

Yes, no-one would deny the World Finals were dying, but they were dying as much because they were increasingly held in the middle of nowhere as anything else. The crowds for latter World Finals held in proper stadiums in cities such as Munich, Gothenburg, Katowice and Wroclaw still held up pretty well, and the presentation was arguably no worse than some GPs I've seen.

 

A conspiracy theorist might even suggest the World Finals were deliberately run down to justify the introduction of the SGP that the FIM would stand a better chance of selling the rights for.

 

I'd agree that BSI made a reasonable start to reviving a World Championship that had been run into the ground (in the World Final and early non-BSI SGP era), and credit should be given for getting the British GP at Millennium Stadium. However, the Millennium Stadium also came along at right time (not being available before 2000) and was desperate for events to pay off the huge building and operational costs (even now it's close to bankruptcy), so let's not get too carried away by the scale of the achievement.

 

Similarly, whilst the sport is on television much more than it used to be, it was inevitable that with the rise in satellite and digital television and its need to fill its schedules, that cheap content from minority sports would be needed. For goodness sake, even my local kart club has some of its meetings shown on Men and Motors, so puts the 'achievement' of getting on the box into context.

 

Scratch the surface a bit further as well, and with the odd exception, the series is going to much the same stadiums that the old World Championship did, playing to similiar-sized crowds, and paying its competitors much the same money. Neither has it greatly leveraged commercial sponsorship, which in reality isn't much above the "Bob's Motors" type of association you get down at your local track.

 

I think the original BSI didn't get the returns it expected from the SGP, and that coupled with apparent other bad investments in the group meant it had to scale back on its ambitions with the result the SGP never really made the progress it might have. Unlike BSI, IMG would appear to be big enough to put more backing in the series, but the parent IMG(UK) suffered big losses on its own bad investments so probably has been told to keep things tight for the speedway part of the business which at least seems to turn a moderate profit.

 

In terms of revenue, this has little more than doubled over 12 years and from more events, so when you take inflation into account, you can't really say the SGP has been anything more than a modest success in financial terms, and certainly not for the wider sport. Perhaps it's simply not possible to market a sport with high overheads that's only raced in a relative handful of countries, but I think it would be generous to put describe the SGP as achieving some sort of revolution in the sport.

 

Getting back to the original topic, you couldn't expect any sort of analysis along these lines in the Star.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Humphrey Appleby

[Vince]

I would have thought a 'modest success in financial terms' within a sport that is completely failing in financial terms in every other area is a very good achievement. Suggests that they are doing something very right in an exceptionally difficult market.

[BWitcher]

I would have thought a 'modest success in financial terms' within a sport that is completely failing in financial terms in every other area is a very good achievement. Suggests that they are doing something very right in an exceptionally difficult market.

Exactly, unless you have an axe to grind that is.

[orion]

I would have thought a 'modest success in financial terms' within a sport that is completely failing in financial terms in every other area is a very good achievement. Suggests that they are doing something very right in an exceptionally difficult market.

Spot on ...the gp's have been one the good things to happen to speedway in the last 20 years ...but sadly you got a couple of people who still have a axe to grind and still find fault .

[Humphrey Appleby]

Exactly, unless you have an axe to grind that is.

 

Rich coming from you, given your obsession with the McCanns...

[The White Knight]

 

Yes, no-one would deny the World Finals were dying, but they were dying as much because they were increasingly held in the middle of nowhere as anything else. The crowds for latter World Finals held in proper stadiums in cities such as Munich, Gothenburg, Katowice and Wroclaw still held up pretty well, and the presentation was arguably no worse than some GPs I've seen.

 

A conspiracy theorist might even suggest the World Finals were deliberately run down to justify the introduction of the SGP that the FIM would stand a better chance of selling the rights for.

 

I'd agree that BSI made a reasonable start to reviving a World Championship that had been run into the ground (in the World Final and early non-BSI SGP era), and credit should be given for getting the British GP at Millennium Stadium. However, the Millennium Stadium also came along at right time (not being available before 2000) and was desperate for events to pay off the huge building and operational costs (even now it's close to bankruptcy), so let's not get too carried away by the scale of the achievement.

 

Similarly, whilst the sport is on television much more than it used to be, it was inevitable that with the rise in satellite and digital television and its need to fill its schedules, that cheap content from minority sports would be needed. For goodness sake, even my local kart club has some of its meetings shown on Men and Motors, so puts the 'achievement' of getting on the box into context.

 

Scratch the surface a bit further as well, and with the odd exception, the series is going to much the same stadiums that the old World Championship did, playing to similiar-sized crowds, and paying its competitors much the same money. Neither has it greatly leveraged commercial sponsorship, which in reality isn't much above the "Bob's Motors" type of association you get down at your local track.

 

I think the original BSI didn't get the returns it expected from the SGP, and that coupled with apparent other bad investments in the group meant it had to scale back on its ambitions with the result the SGP never really made the progress it might have. Unlike BSI, IMG would appear to be big enough to put more backing in the series, but the parent IMG(UK) suffered big losses on its own bad investments so probably has been told to keep things tight for the speedway part of the business which at least seems to turn a moderate profit.

 

In terms of revenue, this has little more than doubled over 12 years and from more events, so when you take inflation into account, you can't really say the SGP has been anything more than a modest success in financial terms, and certainly not for the wider sport. Perhaps it's simply not possible to market a sport with high overheads that's only raced in a relative handful of countries, but I think it would be generous to put describe the SGP as achieving some sort of revolution in the sport.

 

Getting back to the original topic, you couldn't expect any sort of analysis along these lines in the Star.

 

A very good Post indeed Humphrey. I find nothing in it with which to disagree.

[oldace]

 

Yes, no-one would deny the World Finals were dying, but they were dying as much because they were increasingly held in the middle of nowhere as anything else. The crowds for latter World Finals held in proper stadiums in cities such as Munich, Gothenburg, Katowice and Wroclaw still held up pretty well, and the presentation was arguably no worse than some GPs I've seen.

 

No doubt, but the trend was massively downward. Katowice got 100,000 plus in the seventies and by 1986 was down to little over 60,000. Likewise Gothenburg, although only ever mid thirties the 1991 crowd was well down on that. Unarrested that trend would likely have continued

 

A conspiracy theorist might even suggest the World Finals were deliberately run down to justify the introduction of the SGP that the FIM would stand a better chance of selling the rights for.

 

Surely the rights to a thriving world championship would have commanded a little more than the rights to an event that appeared dead in the water?

 

I'd agree that BSI made a reasonable start to reviving a World Championship that had been run into the ground (in the World Final and early non-BSI SGP era), and credit should be given for getting the British GP at Millennium Stadium. However, the Millennium Stadium also came along at right time (not being available before 2000) and was desperate for events to pay off the huge building and operational costs (even now it's close to bankruptcy), so let's not get too carried away by the scale of the achievement.

 

Right place at the right time is the basis of lots of successful business' but you still have to have the right people to take advantage of such situations. It is easy to pass it off as luck and say anyone could have done it, if so why didn't they

 

Similarly, whilst the sport is on television much more than it used to be, it was inevitable that with the rise in satellite and digital television and its need to fill its schedules, that cheap content from minority sports would be needed. For goodness sake, even my local kart club has some of its meetings shown on Men and Motors, so puts the 'achievement' of getting on the box into context.

 

BSkyB were formed in 1990 but showed no interest in the world final until the SGP in 1995, and then not live until a year or two later. So if they were desperate for filler of any kind but still not interested in speedway one off final that maybe tells its own story

 

Scratch the surface a bit further as well, and with the odd exception, the series is going to much the same stadiums that the old World Championship did, playing to similiar-sized crowds, and paying its competitors much the same money. Neither has it greatly leveraged commercial sponsorship, which in reality isn't much above the "Bob's Motors" type of association you get down at your local track.

 

Fiat/KFC/Castrol have all been involved with the SGP as are many tourist boards etc. I would say a little up from "Bobs Motors"

 

I think the original BSI didn't get the returns it expected from the SGP, and that coupled with apparent other bad investments in the group meant it had to scale back on its ambitions with the result the SGP never really made the progress it might have. Unlike BSI, IMG would appear to be big enough to put more backing in the series, but the parent IMG(UK) suffered big losses on its own bad investments so probably has been told to keep things tight for the speedway part of the business which at least seems to turn a moderate profit.

 

In terms of revenue, this has little more than doubled over 12 years and from more events, so when you take inflation into account, you can't really say the SGP has been anything more than a modest success in financial terms, and certainly not for the wider sport. Perhaps it's simply not possible to market a sport with high overheads that's only raced in a relative handful of countries, but I think it would be generous to put describe the SGP as achieving some sort of revolution in the sport.

 

During the worst recession in living memory I could think of plenty business that would be happy with "modest success in financial terms"

 

Getting back to the original topic, you couldn't expect any sort of analysis along these lines in the Star.

 

No you probably wouldn't!!!

[Humphrey Appleby]

No doubt, but the trend was massively downward. Katowice got 100,000 plus in the seventies and by 1986 was down to little over 60,000. Likewise Gothenburg, although only ever mid thirties the 1991 crowd was well down on that. Unarrested that trend would likely have continued

The attendances at many sports had a downward trend from the 1970s onwards, but that was also driven by outdated (dangerous) stadiums and restrictions on capacities for safety reasons.

 

No-one would disagree the World Final wasn't what it was, but we're not comparing then with previously, but then with now. The fact remains that attendances for latter-day World Finals held in decent stadiums were comparable and in many cases higher than the equivalent GPs today.

 

Surely the rights to a thriving world championship would have commanded a little more than the rights to an event that appeared dead in the water?

The larger speedway countries probably didn't have a lot to gain from the introduction of the SGP at the time - it was sold on the basis of being beneficial to the smaller speedway countries who might gain their own annual 'World Final'. If attendances were still holding up for the World Finals, it would be a harder sell to persuade them to basically hand over the commercial rights to the FIM, whereas previously I think the host countries keep the profits.

 

Of course, for the FIM it was always about selling those rights and accruing the fees for that.

 

BSkyB were formed in 1990 but showed no interest in the world final until the SGP in 1995, and then not live until a year or two later. So if they were desperate for filler of any kind but still not interested in speedway one off final that maybe tells its own story

1990 was still early days for satellite with limited customer penetration, and before the introduction of digital television which limited bandwidth for channels. That didn't really happen for a few more years.

 

Yes, someone probably needed to go and knock on Sky's door and sell the product, but equally Sky were likely to be more receptive than old school broadcasters.

 

Fiat/KFC/Castrol have all been involved with the SGP as are many tourist boards etc. I would say a little up from "Bobs Motors"

I believe they were actually local distributors or dealers of those products. For example, KFC was actually KFC Poland, and I'm not sure they actually paid up either because their sponsorship was listed as a bad debt.

 

During the worst recession in living memory I could think of plenty business that would be happy with "modest success in financial terms"

Sure, but neither have BSI particularly revolutionised the sport in 13 years either.

 

To be clear, I'm not advocating a return to the old World Final system. I can perfectly understand how it's easier to leverage television and other commercial deals on the back of a series rather than several knockout rounds, and the BSI shareholders were probably modestly happy to be paid a dividend at last.

 

What the SGP has not done though, is generate any sort of return for the sport itself in the way that the premier competitions of other sports do, nor improve the financial condition of its competitors (although there may be indirect benefits from being involved in the SGP). It has also not really improved attendances at either its own or other meetings, opened-up any new markets, or raised the profile of the sport. It has perhaps prevented a quicker decline, and for some that might be considered an achievement, but that's hardly a criteria of overwhelming success.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Humphrey Appleby

[PHILIPRISING]

IT was the larger speedway nations (Denmark, Poland and Sweden) who provided the support for Jos Vaessen, Gunter Sorber and Ole Olsen to get the GP concept through at the FIM. In fact, it was only Britain who held out even though at the time they only had a realistic prospect of a World Final once every five years at most.

 

Not sure it is up to BSI to revolutionise the sport ... only the World Championship and they have (in my opinion) done just that.

 

Also don't agree that they haven't improved the financial position for GP riders ... maybe not all but certainly some (and Nicki Pedersen is currently a prime example) enjoy lucrative sponsorship on the back of 12 televised GPs. Plenty of others in the same boat.

 

Slightly going off on a tangent, but spoke to James Easter of TravelPlus at Alf Weedon's funeral this morning, and he told me they already have as many bookings for 2014 as the whole of 2012. More than 150 booked for Finland.

[The White Knight]

The attendances at many sports had a downward trend from the 1970s onwards, but that was also driven by outdated (dangerous) stadiums and restrictions on capacities for safety reasons.

 

No-one would disagree the World Final wasn't what it was, but we're not comparing then with previously, but then with now. The fact remains that attendances for latter-day World Finals held in decent stadiums were comparable and in many cases higher than the equivalent GPs today.

 

The larger speedway countries probably didn't have a lot to gain from the introduction of the SGP at the time - it was sold on the basis of being beneficial to the smaller speedway countries who might gain their own annual 'World Final'. If attendances were still holding up for the World Finals, it would be a harder sell to persuade them to basically hand over the commercial rights to the FIM, whereas previously I think the host countries keep the profits.

 

Of course, for the FIM it was always about selling those rights and accruing the fees for that.

 

1990 was still early days for satellite with limited customer penetration, and before the introduction of digital television which limited bandwidth for channels. That didn't really happen for a few more years.

 

Yes, someone probably needed to go and knock on Sky's door and sell the product, but equally Sky were likely to be more receptive than old school broadcasters.

 

I believe they were actually local distributors or dealers of those products. For example, KFC was actually KFC Poland, and I'm not sure they actually paid up either because their sponsorship was listed as a bad debt.

 

Sure, but neither have BSI particularly revolutionised the sport in 13 years either.

 

To be clear, I'm not advocating a return to the old World Final system. I can perfectly understand how it's easier to leverage television and other commercial deals on the back of a series rather than several knockout rounds, and the BSI shareholders were probably modestly happy to be paid a dividend at last.

 

What the SGP has not done though, is generate any sort of return for the sport itself in the way that the premier competitions of other sports do, nor improve the financial condition of its competitors (although there may be indirect benefits from being involved in the SGP). It has also not really improved attendances at either its own or other meetings, opened-up any new markets, or raised the profile of the sport. It has perhaps prevented a quicker decline, and for some that might be considered an achievement, but that's hardly a criteria of overwhelming success.

 

Well said again.

 

Your last sentence says it all.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Not sure it is up to BSI to revolutionise the sport ... only the World Championship and they have (in my opinion) done just that.

Revolutions in sport tend to emanate from capitalising on the premier events. Cricket has been infinitely enriched by selling the rights to the various World Cups and test matches, from which the ECB in turn the counties and grassroots sport directly benefits. The same with probably a dozen other and more sports to varying degrees, and even in football, a lot of money still filters down from the World Cup despite all the corruption.

 

I think we'd all accept that speedway has nothing like the commercial leverage of some other sports and likely never will, but it's also almost unique in giving its commercial rights away for nothing. Yes, I know it'll be argued that the FIM is benefitting, but how much of that money does speedway itself actually receive?

 

Not the fault of BSI I'd fully agree, but yet this arrangement has never once been discussed or questioned by the Star as far as I'm aware. Why not ask the FIM where all the money goes?

 

As for revolutionising the World Championship, I'd agree that Cardiff can be considered a vast improvement over Pocking and Norden, and Copenhagen and Stockholm similarly if they prove to be sustainable. Countering that though, is the ex-gulag in Riga and Terenzano for the past few seasons (now off the circuit thank goodness), with the rest of the venues being largely middling circuits where speedway has always been staged.

 

On the commercial side, no real blue chip companies getting involved after 13 years, and clearly such an important sport for Sky that it was consistently moved to the red button before they finally cut it from their schedules completely.

 

Maybe that's revolutionising the World Championship in the eyes of some though..

Edited February 5, 2014 by Humphrey Appleby

[The White Knight]

Revolutions in sport tend to emanate from capitalising on the premier events. Cricket has been infinitely enriched by selling the rights to the various World Cups and test matches, from which the ECB in turn the counties and grassroots sport directly benefits. The same with probably a dozen other and more sports to varying degrees, and even in football, a lot of money still filters down from the World Cup despite all the corruption.

 

I think we'd all accept that speedway has nothing like the commercial leverage of some other sports and likely never will, but it's also almost unique in giving its commercial rights away for nothing. Yes, I know it'll be argued that the FIM is benefitting, but how much of that money does speedway itself actually receive?

 

Not the fault of BSI I'd fully agree, but yet this arrangement has never once been discussed or questioned by the Star as far as I'm aware. Why not ask the FIM where all the money goes?

 

As for revolutionising the World Championship, I'd agree that Cardiff can be considered a vast improvement over Pocking and Norden, and Copenhagen and Stockholm similarly if they prove to be sustainable. Countering that though, is the ex-gulag in Riga and Terenzano for the past few seasons (now off the circuit thank goodness), with the rest of the venues being largely middling circuits where speedway has always been staged.

 

On the commercial side, no real blue chip companies getting involved after 13 years, and clearly such an important sport for Sky that it was consistently moved to the red button before they finally cut it from their schedules completely.

 

Maybe that's revolutionising the World Championship in the eyes of some though..

 

My goodness Humphrey - you are on a roll.

[The Pedaler]

FIM - BSI - FIM Europe - SEC - SGP - OneSport = a broad ranging topic, one fermenting as we speak, one that goes to the heart of the sport and one in need of some investigative journalism to delve into the facts and figures to tell us what is really happening, and what it could all lead to. Great potential story don't you think?

 

The question is whether Philip Rising and his staff will risk upsetting BSI, FIM, etc, etc, and having their SGP free-passes revoked for doing their journalistic duties and publishing the truth? Or is it like Jack Nicholson said in "A Few Good Men" - "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

[SteveLyric2]

This is all about the political in-fighting and wranglings of FIM/FIM Europe!! BSI and One Sport have just been caught up in the situation - although imo One Sport have antagonised the whole issue by adding new fixtures (SEC/Pairs) after the official FIM calendars have been agreed and announced.

 

It is what annoys some FIM leagues - especially EL - as the new One Sport fixtures, in addition the the SGP series will have an increasing effect on some EL league meetings!