Top Rider Shortage

[bigred]

Ommer, I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your statements of Heathens developing riders. NO no no!! This is done in places like Scunny, Kings Lynn etc where these kids start riding their very small bikes at very young ages 5 or 6 years old. At Scunny its under the guidence Wayne Carter & Richard Hollingsworth and his gang of helpers. These kids develope on to the next size bike and so on. They go from the training track to the big track and delopement goes on. By the time these kids get to teenages they have developed style and speed and compete on either 250 or 500cc bikes in AM meetings. By the time they reach 14/15 they are ready for NL. This is the age when there should be an opening into the first league for all those lads that has stuck with speedway.They have earned their right to at least be given a chance. At this level teams offering big money to youngsters already in the N/L is at the expense of many lads missing out on team places. Money can always buy the best team! In any sport.

So why did Scunthorpe pull the plug on the saints last year of a supposed 3 year plan to feed the premier league,leaving all there 2012 team without a team spot(lucky for dudley/cradley they did really).And why were none of them given a premier team spot for 2103.??

[June]

I think Rob Godfrey pulled out of N/L with a very heavy heart.Running one team was possibly all he could afford. Must be very difficult finding money to run 2 teams. I'm not involved with Scunny speedway at that level. I'm a fan from the 70s and our 3 generations of the family love the sport. Oh don't forget Rob Godfrey started off with a field and has had to build up the stadium as he goes along. Its been purpose built and hes worked long hard hours down at the track in all weathers. One can only do so much!

[Bagpuss]

I'm sure it was mentioned at the time by Rob that some of his riders had been tapped up and he was a little disillusioned by it all as well as struggling to track a side because of the aforementioned tapping.

[Hunty]

Ommer, I'm sorry but I cannot agree with your statements of Heathens developing riders. NO no no!! This is done in places like Scunny, Kings Lynn etc where these kids start riding their very small bikes at very young ages 5 or 6 years old. At Scunny its under the guidence Wayne Carter & Richard Hollingsworth and his gang of helpers. These kids develope on to the next size bike and so on. They go from the training track to the big track and delopement goes on. By the time these kids get to teenages they have developed style and speed and compete on either 250 or 500cc bikes in AM meetings. By the time they reach 14/15 they are ready for NL. This is the age when there should be an opening into the first league for all those lads that has stuck with speedway.They have earned their right to at least be given a chance. At this level teams offering big money to youngsters already in the N/L is at the expense of many lads missing out on team places. Money can always buy the best team! In any sport.

But at NL leave level which Is the only possible contact for the heathens to have with riders we do help them develop by riding for a NL team who can support them in and off the track! In terms off the NL we do develop riders we don't have anything to help in place with the younger levels than the NL cause we don't have the facilities to! Don't understand you point that we don't when we have made a difference to this league in the last 4 years and many riders development over those last 4 years! Ash Morris is the prime example!

[June]

But at NL leave level which Is the only possible contact for the heathens to have with riders we do help them develop by riding for a NL team who can support them in and off the track! In terms off the NL we do develop riders we don't have anything to help in place with the younger levels than the NL cause we don't have the facilities to! Don't understand you point that we don't when we have made a difference to this league in the last 4 years and many riders development over those last 4 years! Ash Morris is the prime example!

Yea I remember Ashley Morris very well, where did he come from ? thats it Scunny.So as per usual this subject keeps going round in circles. Is there any wonder riders don't move up to our P/L side, they'll go where their offfered the most money.

[TMW]

Yea I remember Ashley Morris very well, where did he come from ? thats it Scunny.So as per usual this subject keeps going round in circles. Is there any wonder riders don't move up to our P/L side, they'll go where their offfered the most money.

I know you and your family are passionate about Scunny and yes Scunny do a lot for riders but the fact remains that put yourself in the place of the Heathens with no track and if not for track share no team. I'm sure the Heathens supporters would love to have such a set up but at the moment they share a track with an EL team and dogs. One day they may have a similar place to Scunny but until then they have to put up with what they have and I think they do well. They have a procession of guests from the local authorities to give them a feel for the need for the sport, in the area. They wouldn't be able to do that with a team that sank to the bottom of the table every season with mainly the volunteers and riders families standing on the terraces as support. I have a sneaky suspicion that the Heathens fans don't do losing so the management need to provide a winning team to support their argument and retain their support. Scunny have that it's the Scorpions

Edited January 24, 2014 by TMW

[roguetrader]

But at NL leave level which Is the only possible contact for the heathens to have with riders we do help them develop by riding for a NL team who can support them in and off the track! In terms off the NL we do develop riders we don't have anything to help in place with the younger levels than the NL cause we don't have the facilities to! Don't understand you point that we don't when we have made a difference to this league in the last 4 years and many riders development over those last 4 years! Ash Morris is the prime example!

Ashley Morris is a really talented rider who started his National League career at.....oh yes Scunthorpe. Matt Williamson was nurtured by Buxton. Why didnt he go back there? Does anyone really wonder apart from you!

Come on Ommer explain to me why you tried to sign Brady Kurtz, who is an out and out Australian as a reserve instead of a British reserve>

[Hunty]

Yes he did come from scunny as many riders do, but that's only because they run track days and academys! Look at the EL clubs who just sign British assets after British assets from PL clubs but never create the next generation themselves! The money is at the top of the sport and that's what's is wrong! The money is not fed back into grass roots. As I said the Heathens have no way of helping kids at the 125cc level as we have nowhere for them to ride! We have a mascot who rides after every meeting and I'm sure we will have another this year but to say we don't develop riders is a bit of a mockery! We have a lot of fans who would like to win everything, I'm not one of them as I've said before watching the young lads come through our team and DEVELOP whilst riding for us is a joy to watch!

 

We should see Williamson and Phillips and Greaves make big strides and maybe they could get a EL draft place for next season if it continues to run!

Ashley Morris is a really talented rider who started his National League career at.....oh yes Scunthorpe. Matt Williamson was nurtured by Buxton. Why didnt he go back there? Does anyone really wonder apart from you!

Come on Ommer explain to me why you tried to sign Brady Kurtz, who is an out and out Australian as a reserve instead of a British reserve>

 

 

Todd was proberbly the reason why as he rode NL level with Newport.

 

Im not commenting on Matt Williamson because that issue lies with the rider.

[moomin man 76]

Unfortunately, there seems to be little impartiality in this debate.

As it stands, there does not appear to be a vast number of new tracks being built; nor clubs willing to effectively set up reserve teams, despite the praiseworthy efforts of Coventry, Kings Lynn, Plymouth and Scunthorpe in that direction. For better or worse, the Heathens will be riding in the National League this season. If they were not, there would be an additional seven riders looking for a team place.

In an ideal world, the Heathens would be riding in the Premier League and the National League would primarily consist of reserve teams, or stand alone development tracks like Buxton. However, if you removed the Heathens and their travelling support from the league, it is debatable whether such sides as Buxton would find it financially viable to remain at National League Level.

Such tracks as Scunthorpe deserve a large amount of credit for their role in the development of British youngsters. However, Scunthorpe's role is so prominent due to the sheer lack of proper training facilities in the country, that the majority of British youngsters will at some point in their development inevitably pass through such training schools (for instance Ashley Morris). At present, the UK has as many devoted training tracks as Finland, who would no doubt be considered to be a minor speedway nation by the majority on this forum.

There are many who would denigrate the Heathens role in the development of British youngsters. However, when the Heathens were re-established for the 2010 season, if you were in Ashley Morris' shoes as a fifteen year old still at school would you sooner travel a significant distance across country to carry on riding for Scunthorpe, or as a Wolverhampton based rider, ride for the Heathens at Monmore Green and Perry Barr?

It is also often forgotten that the Heathens also took a chance on a young local grasstracker, Tom Perry, who prior to that point had very little speedway experience at all.

That is not to say that I agree with all of the decisions that the Heathens management have made. Trying to bring in Brady Kurtz was clearly wrong, as was the decision in 2010 to bring in Micky Dyer. The National League should be for British riders only, rather than Australians masquerading as Brits, due to the convenience of having partiality. The Heathens though are not unique in taking such an approach. I cannot remember any such vitriol when Newport brought in Todd Kurtz, or Mildenhall brought in Cameron Heeps.

To suggest that the Heathens management have to field a top side to keep up crowd levels does not entirely hold true. The 2011 side was decimated by injury; suffered a number of humiliatingly high home defeats (for example 27-64 v Stoke), yet crowd levels remained high and vastly exceeded the majority of National League tracks. For Heathens fans with longer memories that I, crowds in the 1960's and 1970's remained high in spite of being served up mediocre teams year after year.

Edited January 24, 2014 by moomin man 76

[TMW]

Unfortunately, there seems to be little impartiality in this debate.

As it stands, there does not appear to be a vast number of new tracks being built; nor clubs willing to effectively set up reserve teams, despite the praiseworthy efforts of Coventry, Kings Lynn, Plymouth and Scunthorpe in that direction. For better or worse, the Heathens will be riding in the National League this season. If they were not, there would be an additional seven riders looking for a team place.

In an ideal world, the Heathens would be riding in the Premier League and the National League would primarily consist of reserve teams, or stand alone development tracks like Buxton. However, if you removed the Heathens and their travelling support from the league, it is debatable whether such sides as Buxton would find it financially viable to remain at National League Level.

Such tracks as Scunthorpe deserve a large amount of credit for their role in the development of British youngsters. However, Scunthorpe's role is so prominent due to the sheer lack of proper training facilities in the country, that the majority of British youngsters will at some point in their development inevitably pass through such training schools (for instance Ashley Morris). At present, the UK has as many devoted training tracks as Finland, who would no doubt be considered to be a minor speedway nation by the majority on this forum.

There are many who would denigrate the Heathens role in the development of British youngsters. However, when the Heathens were re-established for the 2010 season, if you were in Ashley Morris' shoes as a fifteen year old still at school would you sooner travel a significant distance across country to carry on riding for Scunthorpe, or as a Wolverhampton based rider, ride for the Heathens at Monmore Green and Perry Barr?

It is also often forgotten that the Heathens also took a chance on a young local grasstracker, Tom Perry, who prior to that point had very little speedway experience at all.

That is not to say that I agree with all of the decisions that the Heathens management have made. Trying to bring in Brady Kurtz was clearly wrong, as was the decision in 2010 to bring in Micky Dyer. The National League should be for British riders only, rather than Australians masquerading as Brits, due to the convenience of having partiality. The Heathens though are not unique in taking such an approach. I cannot remember any such vitriol when Newport brought in Todd Kurtz, or Mildenhall brought in Cameron Heeps.

To suggest that the Heathens management have to field a top side to keep up crowd levels does not entirely hold true. The 2011 side was decimated by injury; suffered a number of humiliatingly high home defeats (for example 27-64 v Stoke), yet crowd levels remained high and vastly exceeded the majority of National League tracks. For Heathens fans with longer memories that I, crowds in the 1960's and 1970's remained high in spite of being served up mediocre teams year after year.

Good point if you want competitive amateur racing you have to go to Scunny. I don't know of any other track who puts on Amateur meetings in the winter, Newport used to put on a winter series. So invariably riders will come through Scunny.

Edited January 25, 2014 by TMW

[June]

We've done the usual complete circle again.... The topic is " shortage of riders "Scunny has lost their team twice so we fans have experienced the hardship. We know Scunny have dedicated people who DEVELOP riders in practice sessions and AM meetings. Thats a brill job and everyone accepts that fact, I think! BUT seemingly that appears not enough we still need rules to get youngsters into the bottom league to get them started. also rules that all teams follow, how about rookies into 6 & 7, a few points less on the team average.The same for all teams?

[TMW]

If people are worried about competitiveness of the racing why not follow the same line as the EL is this season and follow their race format whichever that maybe but rather than keep 6&7 at reserve all season who ever rides at reserve follows that format. It could encourage a few more risks with newbies :-)

Edited January 26, 2014 by TMW

[greyhoundp]

I really think that with the shortage of Heat Leaders, the NL needs to reduce the points limit in the NL, i think a 36 point limit would be better suited at this moment in time, especially with many riders now doing all three Leagues. This would open up positions for the Gearys, Dwyers, and such like, who really need to be racing League Speedway on a regular basis, against better riders to improve themselves.

 

And while Im here, I would like to acknowledge the Job Scunthorpe did in bringing on young Max Clegg, many seem to think it was Cradley where he first emerged, 2013 was his 2nd season of NL racing. Im looking forward to seeing how Nathan goes this year in this his 2nd season of NL racing, he tended to get overlooked bcuz of Max,s progress, Im hopeful it will be comparable with Max, already he is on a par on the bigger Tracks, he just needs to improve on the smaller Tracks to make significant improvement on his average.

Edited January 26, 2014 by greyhoundp

[therefused]

If people are worried about competitiveness of the racing why not follow the same line as the EL is this season and follow their race format whichever that maybe but rather than keep 6&7 at reserve all season who ever rides at reserve follows that format. It could encourage a few more risks with newbies :-)

I think that having 2, three pointers at reserve is definitely needed in the NL, maybe individuals that are new to the league. However, keeping them at reserve all season could be disastrous in this league. It works in the EL because everyone is of a similar standard at reserve, however when you have 3 pointers like lambert and ellis just last year, they could never stay at reserve all season.

[Swift Saint]

If people are worried about competitiveness of the racing why not follow the same line as the EL is this season and follow their race format whichever that maybe but rather than keep 6&7 at reserve all season who ever rides at reserve follows that format. It could encourage a few more risks with newbies :-)

Dreadful idea unusual for you TMW but if someone has discovered a star as The Refused has stated it would fatally flaw the integrity of the League. We have had it before with riders with overseas experience which is why now four League matches and a new average is provided.

 

I saw Todd Kurtz rip Mildenhall apart one afternoon and I think Jay Herne began at Weymouth with a twenty point return. Imagine a season of that!

 

It would never get approval we are on top of that problem now

 

 

Malcolm Vasey

[TMW]

It was just that some were saying they wouldn't go because of the strung out races so just an idea to put the reserves up against themselves and the 2nd strings and Heatleaders race each other as EL but thanks PP & TR for your thoughts on the subject.

[Baldy]

You make some interesting points and I am not sure how best to find ideas that will rectify what you have said. Indeed, the actions taken by the Elite League during the close season, which I actually support to a degree make the situation you describe even worse for them. Ok two reserve races there may be but how are the National League reserves going to fare against regular Elite League team members?

 

In the example that you give at Stoke Ben Wilson and Rob Shuttleworth will not normally race together. Only in the event of an injury would that likely to be the case. You have to give opportunities to newcomers and it is difficult to select them at the start of the season. We feel that given his fantastic enthusiasm his rapid improvement last season and his family pedigree and support Rob has a chance to be that magic discovery. But let's not pressure the lad. He has promised his utmost what more can one ask for? James McBain our other reserve has more experience and I feel sure that he will be an exceptional capture but looking at what happened at Stoke last season when everyone said at the start of the season that we had a good team and yet at times we could not have beaten a drum.

 

But I believe that National League speedway because of the effort of the riders and the unpredictability is far and away the best to watch and I believe I have seen more third tier speedway in this country than anyone else. I smile now that all the snobs who made the assertion that they were not going to watch what they called "wobblers" now will be saying how great that level is which in turn will help us. But the mixing between the two levels in the same race may be a problem. I feel that the Premier League should have had one NL reserve and the EL one also and that would have been an improvement. But I do not know that for certain.

 

I hope Mr Steeplejack that you will return to Stoke and that we will excite and entertain you. We have a burning desire to do well but who knows? One bad injury could wipe you out if you need a top replacement. Its that difficult.

 

I don't think that really answers your question but it is my thoughts on this difficult subject.

 

Malcolm Vasey

Thank you Malcolm for the reply and realize that it is a difficult situation and position to resolve. I certainly do not regard the NL a league of wobblers and know that you did not insinuate that. For me at present the product on offer is not what I want. In all sports the ones taking part find their level and it is at the start that the most progress is made and if some are not offered a team place then they will not progress, but some who are too good for the NL need to be moved on to allow them room, I must admit It was with great joy that I watched Ben Reade develop into a very good rider ( it could have been James as I was there to watch the race offs been him and Ben for that final place in the Potters 7; James gating in front and the Ben coming past; two lads of the same standard at the time racing against each other(see my point) My list of problems are topped that teams are forced into selecting riders that my not be up to the standard of the racing whilst capable riders are sitting on the side lines because of the flawed average set-up. Careers have been ended because of averages. I want to watch Elite standard riders riding against Elite standard riders ...dito for all leagues. I know the two riders i mentioned in Ben Wilson and Rob would not normally ride against each other but were used as a level for standard both of experience and ability at this level. I wish Rob all the success in the world as I do James and if they have the drive that is required then they should do well. I know this will never happen but what killed meetings for me were when either a rider did not appear for whatever reason at the track or a rider got injured in his first race then he has to be covered by a reserve; fine if the reserves are false three pointers but can lead to riders being in races to to fill a spot; lets have riders in there that are same average or close to for the rider that is out or it can even lead to three riders races if situations get worse for a team. I want four riders in a race unless somebody has been thrown out for dangerous riding. For me; and I know I am in the minority by a long way; speedway is wrapped up in rules and regs that are not giving enough close racing for me. Let the riders find their level and let them race. That is what other sports do. If somebody is good enough for the Elite he will get there because someone will see their talent and bring them into their squad, if not do not force them. Good luck for the season Malc and I know for sure that you will do Stoke proud as you always do

[Jayne]

In an ideal world, the Heathens would be riding in the Premier League and the National League would primarily consist of reserve teams, or stand alone development tracks like Buxton. However, if you removed the Heathens and their travelling support from the league, it is debatable whether such sides as Buxton would find it financially viable to remain at National League Level.

Whilst all income from spectators helps pay the bills and is very welcome,Buxton survived in the third tier of speedway without Dudley for many years so please don't credit yourself with our survival as it is insulting. Buxton speedway survives by working within its means and with a lot of hard work from a small number of volunteers and sponsors.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Jayne

[Hunty]

Whilst all income from spectators helps pay the bills and is very welcome,Buxton survived in the third tier of speedway without Dudley for many years so please don't credit yourself with our survival as it is insulting. Buxton speedway survives by working within its means and with a lot of hard work from a small number of volunteers and sponsors.

And much to your credit, the fact that the air fence is secured is one of the biggest achievements of NL has had to achieve over the past year. Loved it when I visited Buxton this year, was great to be that close to the action and the although the facilities are limited in proberbly enjoyed that away day the most all of last year.

 

I'll be back this year to put my coppers into your jar because as the saying goes, every little helps!

[Rebel1]

Jayne i know from speaking to you that it is hard to get riders to ride for the points money that is offered,but its the Leagues fault for allowing the richer teams to offer over the top payments .It is done in many sports the richer clubs get the best and what is left the smaller clubs make do with.I understand that riders need to get as much money possible to do speedway they deserve it for what they do.But because of the money its spoiling the league by teams being to strong the coordinator should either put the money up or make a rule to stop teams paying over the top,then we would get more even matches.I know it would be hard to enforce but it could be worth a try.

 

I may be missing the point here, but surely the points system is meant to ensure that regardless of the money spent the teams start with a particular strength on paper. Agreed those with money may attract the higher earners, yet no-one not even Matt Ford can have a team of heat leaders, you look for the promising rider, hopeful of their progression and increased points scoring. I would prefer to see teams built from the bottom up but it always seems to be built from the top down. Bring on the reserves, they then become the second strings and then heat leader quality. If you look after them then hopefully you build your own team over time. Cuckoo land I know.