Was Penhall,s Retirement The Start Of The Decline In Speedway.?

[pandorum]

All that clip does is fail to show the actual contact, which is Penhall swiping the tip of Carter's handlebar when he pulls a locker. You can see this on the original tv footage if you look. Penhall knocked Carter off.

Just watched it again and it was a very tough race.

Bruce did what he had to do and was probably to blame. I think I thought the same back then and I was no 'fan' of Kenny Carter.

 

But it makes me smile when people defend Kenny who was not a stranger to those type of situation.

As a regular at The Shay I saw Kenny go in hard many times.

I would not call him a dirty rider but he would have made Nicki blush with some of his antics.

But that's why The Shay used to get full on a Saturday night.

 

But to me he seemed to be able to give it but not take it. His whine to the ref at the end was amusing.

Of course he had to do it the same way Nicki does as one never knows. Whining does sometimes get results. Just look at #37.

You mention his handlebar which does seem to be the point of contact but Kenny whined Bruce took his leg which I did not see in the video.

Kenny The Saint got stuffed by the big pansy Penhall and did not like it.

 

But of course Bruce was no big pansy but a tough speedway rider.

If you wanted to play with the big boys Kenny you should have expected to eat a little dust.

 

The idea that Bruce was some kind of disgrace and Kenny a poor little innocent is hilarious.

Two tough characters going hammer and tongs at each other.

I was lucky to see a number of Penhall/Carter clashes and they were always interesting.

Like watered down versions of Mad Jack and Frank Auffrett without the extreme violence.

 

It was a tough Mans sport back then as of course it is today but with more characters back then.

I liked the Yanks. Bruce was always worth the admission. But then so was Kenny.

 

Yes Kenny was probably dumped in the dirt by Bruce but if the glove had been on the other hand don't try to tell me Kenny would have given Bruce enough racing room to pass him as I would laugh in your face.

[Grachan]

I'm certainly no apologist for Kenny Carter. It's just that is what happened. It wasn't a case of Carter not holding his own in a tough corner/race. It was a simple case of Penhall flicks out, takes out his handlebars and - boom - down he goes.

 

I think the fact that Kenny Carter kept going on about him taking his leg away is why so many people don't see it. They are looking for Bruce taking away Carter's leg - which he didn't. That's why people think the alternate footage proves Penhall didn't take him out. Because it shows he didn't take his leg.

 

The Penhall/Carter rivalry was great stuff. A shame there's nothing like that around these days.

[oldace]

I'm certainly no apologist for Kenny Carter. It's just that is what happened. It wasn't a case of Carter not holding his own in a tough corner/race. It was a simple case of Penhall flicks out, takes out his handlebars and - boom - down he goes.

 

I think the fact that Kenny Carter kept going on about him taking his leg away is why so many people don't see it. They are looking for Bruce taking away Carter's leg - which he didn't. That's why people think the alternate footage proves Penhall didn't take him out. Because it shows he didn't take his leg.

 

The Penhall/Carter rivalry was great stuff. A shame there's nothing like that around these days.

 

 

Carter though put himself into that position. That track narrowed up massively coming out of the bends and Carter knew there was going to be no room. He simply ran into a dead end, his fall was entirely of his own making I am afraid.

 

The biggest loser in it all was Les Collins though. As was the way back then (and particularly with Tore Kittilsen) if the guilty party was clear of danger the race would continue, this would have happened here but the inexperienced American track staff didn't wait for any red lights and ran to Carters aid forcing him to put on the red lights. With a lap to go Penhall had no chance of catching PC so their actions cost Les a run off for certain

Edited February 5, 2014 by Oldace

[Grachan]

 

 

Carter though put himself into that position. That track narrowed up massively coming out of the bends and Carter knew there was going to be no room. He simply ran into a dead end, his fall was entirely of his own making I am afraid.

 

 

Have you actually seen the moment of contact? If so and you still believe that then fair enough.

 

Carter had room until Penhall flicked his back wheel out and knocked him off. It's there on the original video. I didn't see it for years because my own video wasn't such great quality, then a DVD quality video was posted here and I saw it. The contact is indisputable and once you see it you'll see it every time.

 

 

The biggest loser in it all was Les Collins though. As was the way back then (and particularly with Tore Kittilsen) if the guilty party was clear of danger the race would continue, this would have happened here but the inexperienced American track staff didn't wait for any red lights and ran to Carters aid forcing him to put on the red lights. With a lap to go Penhall had no chance of catching PC so their actions cost Les a run off for certain

 

Yeah. That's very true, although I'm not convinced Les would have won once in a frame to do so.

[oldace]

 

Have you actually seen the moment of contact? If so and you still believe that then fair enough.

 

Carter had room until Penhall flicked his back wheel out and knocked him off. It's there on the original video. I didn't see it for years because my own video wasn't such great quality, then a DVD quality video was posted here and I saw it. The contact is indisputable and once you see it you'll see it every time.

 

I have seen all the videos, and like I say it was Carter's fault. He was always going to run out of room and he knew that. Even more so as a rider who raced the Shay regularly. That was also funnel shaped and you had to be aware that you would run out of room on the outside coming off the bends

[Grachan]

 

I have seen all the videos, and like I say it was Carter's fault. He was always going to run out of room and he knew that. Even more so as a rider who raced the Shay regularly. That was also funnel shaped and you had to be aware that you would run out of room on the outside coming off the bends

 

Have you seen the contact though?

 

(And, yes, I know Peter Collins said that about the track shape)

Edited February 5, 2014 by grachan

[E I Addio]

 

Have you seen the contact though?

 

(And, yes, I know Peter Collins said that about the track shape)

I have tried to find the alternate video (taken from behind the riders) on youtube but it seems to have been taken off, which is a pity. I have seen it though and I have to agree with the previous poster who says that from that angle it shows no contact.

With respect Grachan, your explanation depends on Carter being wrong about his leg being taken away. Of course, in the heat of the race and heat of the moment he could be mistaken but then again he was the bloke on the bike, so his explanation should be given at least the same weight as yours. I doubt if anyone knows the 100% truth but I don't think there is enough information to say with any certainty that the ref made the wrong decision.

[The White Knight]

I have tried to find the alternate video (taken from behind the riders) on youtube but it seems to have been taken off, which is a pity. I have seen it though and I have to agree with the previous poster who says that from that angle it shows no contact.

With respect Grachan, your explanation depends on Carter being wrong about his leg being taken away. Of course, in the heat of the race and heat of the moment he could be mistaken but then again he was the bloke on the bike, so his explanation should be given at least the same weight as yours. I doubt if anyone knows the 100% truth but I don't think there is enough information to say with any certainty that the ref made the wrong decision.

 

The Referee ALWAYS makes the wrong decision. :D

[HenryW]

Have you actually seen the moment of contact? If so and you still believe that then fair enough.

 

Carter had room until Penhall flicked his back wheel out and knocked him off. It's there on the original video. I didn't see it for years because my own video wasn't such great quality, then a DVD quality video was posted here and I saw it. The contact is indisputable and once you see it you'll see it every time.

I realise that I am very late to respond to this, but I only just saw this thread again due to the recent replies....

 

I would be very interested to see it if someone could provide this high quality clip that proves that it was Bruce's fault...The way that I have always seen it was that after Kenny elbowed Bruce away down the home straight, Bruce cut back under Kenny around the 1st/2nd bend and Kenny then tried to lean on Bruce in the same way that Bruce had leant on him entering the straight before but Kenny was already too far behind to make that work.

I always saw it that the brief "flick" of Bruce's back wheel was actually caused by Kenny leaning into Bruce's bike and causing an imbalance for him, rather than it being a deliberate move by Bruce to push him off. I'd be interested to see something that showed that it was a deliberate move from Bruce that was instigated before any contact....

 

 

Going back to the original question of this topic, I very recently watched a youtube video of BV v Halifax from 1982...I'm not sure whether it was before or after Bruce bailed on speedway but I am guessing that it was before, and considering the regular claims of Hyde Road being a great venue for racing, you really have to wonder about just how rose tinted those specs were back then....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SztbfCPHE6o#t=0

Watch that and tell me that it's better than anything shown on Sky last year...I might be biased but I am pretty sure that racing wise it is far worse than anything I saw on TV last season, and I surely can't blame the masses from walking away from that "entertainment" if that was the best that was on offer back then...

Edited February 15, 2014 by HenryW

[waiheke1]

It was before - its league cup from about april. There are a couple of better meetings from hyde rd 82 on youtube, bv v cradley and england v usa, both featuring penhall.

But its not a case of amazing racing each and every heat. I'm condtsntly amazed at people bemoaning the quality of the racing in the gps, I think they are consistently good. I watched most of my racing at hyde rd, and while it is the best racetrack of sll time imho, you still got poor races and poor meetings.

[stratton]

I realise that I am very late to respond to this, but I only just saw this thread again due to the recent replies....I would be very interested to see it if someone could provide this high quality clip that proves that it was Bruce's fault...The way that I have always seen it was that after Kenny elbowed Bruce away down the home straight, Bruce cut back under Kenny around the 1st/2nd bend and Kenny then tried to lean on Bruce in the same way that Bruce had leant on him entering the straight before but Kenny was already too far behind to make that work.I always saw it that the brief "flick" of Bruce's back wheel was actually caused by Kenny leaning into Bruce's bike and causing an imbalance for him, rather than it being a deliberate move by Bruce to push him off. I'd be interested to see something that showed that it was a deliberate move from Bruce that was instigated before any contact....Going back to the original question of this topic, I very recently watched a youtube video of BV v Halifax from 1982...I'm not sure whether it was before or after Bruce bailed on speedway but I am guessing that it was before, and considering the regular claims of Hyde Road being a great venue for racing, you really have to wonder about just how rose tinted those specs were back then....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SztbfCPHE6o#t=0Watch that and tell me that it's better than anything shown on Sky last year...I might be biased but I am pretty sure that racing wise it is far worse than anything I saw on TV last season, and I surely can't blame the masses from walking away from that "entertainment" if that was the best that was on offer back then...

There was dross then no different to now no doubt about it,but in my memory there was also alot of fine racing i wouldn't of wanted to change that much back then you see star riders everyweek and regularly.

[Grachan]

I realise that I am very late to respond to this, but I only just saw this thread again due to the recent replies....

 

I would be very interested to see it if someone could provide this high quality clip that proves that it was Bruce's fault...The way that I have always seen it was that after Kenny elbowed Bruce away down the home straight, Bruce cut back under Kenny around the 1st/2nd bend and Kenny then tried to lean on Bruce in the same way that Bruce had leant on him entering the straight before but Kenny was already too far behind to make that work.

I always saw it that the brief "flick" of Bruce's back wheel was actually caused by Kenny leaning into Bruce's bike and causing an imbalance for him, rather than it being a deliberate move by Bruce to push him off. I'd be interested to see something that showed that it was a deliberate move from Bruce that was instigated before any contact....

 

 

 

 

Someone put a link to DVD quality video on here once. I think it was Steve Shovlar. It was when I watched it that I saw the contact. I had a sort of "OH MY GOD!!!" moment when I spotted it.

 

I don't think Bruce's flick was an attempt to knock Carter off. It was probably just an attempt to keep the bike in line. But it was definitely that which knocked Carter off. Once you've seen it, you see it every time.

 

The footage from ITV on Youtube is not good enough quality to see the contact. I know, because I put it there! It's from my old Betamax recording which had been copied several times over already.

 

With respect Grachan, your explanation depends on Carter being wrong about his leg being taken away. Of course, in the heat of the race and heat of the moment he could be mistaken but then again he was the bloke on the bike, so his explanation should be given at least the same weight as yours. I doubt if anyone knows the 100% truth but I don't think there is enough information to say with any certainty that the ref made the wrong decision.

 

Seriously. You can see it. Penhall flicks his wheel out, and , bang, takes Carter's left handlebar.

 

It being Penhall's fault is obviously just my opinion. Carter coming off as a result of a coming together of his handlebars and Penhall's back wheel is fact. The "new" footage from behind proves nothing. The original ITV footage shows it.

Edited February 17, 2014 by grachan

[oldace]

 

Someone put a link to DVD quality video on here once. I think it was Steve Shovlar. It was when I watched it that I saw the contact. I had a sort of "OH MY GOD!!!" moment when I spotted it.

 

I don't think Bruce's flick was an attempt to knock Carter off. It was probably just an attempt to keep the bike in line. But it was definitely that which knocked Carter off. Once you've seen it, you see it every time.

 

The footage from ITV on Youtube is not good enough quality to see the contact. I know, because I put it there! It's from my old Betamax recording which had been copied several times over already.

 

Seriously. You can see it. Penhall flicks his wheel out, and , bang, takes Carter's left handlebar.

 

It being Penhall's fault is obviously just my opinion. Carter coming off as a result of a coming together of his handlebars and Penhall's back wheel is fact. The "new" footage from behind proves nothing. The original ITV footage shows it.

 

 

It happened the other way round though. It was Carter running into Bruce that sent Bruce out of shape.

 

In a normal broadside it would be impossible to do such a manoeuvre as flicking a back wheel out. A rider may do an exaggerated over steer to turn back hard under an opponent but it involves a lot more happening than just "flicking the wheel".

 

However many times you may have seen it and from whatever angles the truth is it was entirely Kenny's fault, he simply raced into a dead end

[Grachan]

 

 

It happened the other way round though. It was Carter running into Bruce that sent Bruce out of shape.

 

In a normal broadside it would be impossible to do such a manoeuvre as flicking a back wheel out. A rider may do an exaggerated over steer to turn back hard under an opponent but it involves a lot more happening than just "flicking the wheel".

 

However many times you may have seen it and from whatever angles the truth is it was entirely Kenny's fault, he simply raced into a dead end

 

I don't agree with that at all. To me, Carter has a perfectly good line until Bruce goes past and only after the contact does Carter go out of control.

 

You could argue that it is the pressure from Carter that puts Bruce out of shape though - although Carter was ahead and Penhall went out of shape as he went past him. I'm not saying the decision is totally clear cut (although personally I think it was Penhall's fault) but that point of contact, and that fact that it is that contact which forces Carter off, is indisputable once you spot it.

 

Perhaps it was the shape of the track - as you mentioned earlier - that forced Penhall to to the hard over steer.

 

And, surely the famous footage from behind would prove that Carter never ran into Penhall prior to that.

Edited February 17, 2014 by grachan

[oldace]

 

I don't agree with that at all. To me, Carter has a perfectly good line until Bruce goes past and only after the contact does Carter go out of control.

 

You could argue that it is the pressure from Carter that puts Bruce out of shape though - although Carter was ahead and Penhall went out of shape as he went past him. I'm not saying the decision is totally clear cut (although personally I think it was Penhall's fault) but that point of contact, and that fact that it is that contact which forces Carter off, is indisputable once you spot it.

 

Perhaps it was the shape of the track - as you mentioned earlier - that forced Penhall to to the hard over steer.

 

 

"Contact" Kelvins favourite word.

 

It really is all about being in front.

 

Two riders racing neck and neck down the straight into the bend. Now if the rider on the outside is half a wheel behind and tries to continue the race into the bend he will get wiped out by the sliding back wheel of the inside rider. Clear contact but totally the fault of the rider on the outside who didn't concede the corner. In that situation he has to run in later make a wider turn and try again later.

 

On the other hand if the rider on the outside is half a wheel in front he can continue the race into the bend quite safely, the bikes can turn in unison and no one falls off.

 

It really is all about getting your wheel in front.

 

Now in the case of Penhall/Carter they were coming out of the bend but the same applies

 

On a track like Hyde Road Carter would have been OK to keep going in that situation. If it was Halifax or Hull (or the coliseum) he wouldn't because he would know exactly where Bruce would be and that there would simply be no room for him.

 

In the cut and thrust of a world final Kenny simply made a bad call

[Grachan]

Carter was in front going into the corner.

[oldace]

Carter was in front going into the corner.

 

Indeed he was, but not by the time they come out of the 2nd bend. Penhall had passed him and Carter wouldn't yield, hence he ran out of room and fell off

[Grachan]

 

Indeed he was, but not by the time they come out of the 2nd bend. Penhall had passed him and Carter wouldn't yield, hence he ran out of room and fell off

 

Ha ha. We could go round in circles like this all day. I don't think either of us are going to change our mind.

[oldace]

 

Ha ha. We could go round in circles like this all day. I don't think either of us are going to change our mind.

 

Quite. It has split the speedway world in half for 32 years.

 

The real loser though was Les Collins. The norm back in the day, particularly with Tore Kittilsen, was to let a race continue if the fallen rider was on the outside away from problems. The inexperienced American track staff though just ran onto the circuit forcing him to put on a red light that otherwise wouldn't have come on. With little over a lap to go there is no way Bruce would have caught PC.

 

Still its all history now, Penhall won, the others didn't and speedway went into even more decline

[Grachan]

Dave Lanning was certainly correct when he said in his commentary that it was something that would be talked about until time runs out in speedway.

 

I do think the point of contact is relevant, by the way, as many people have long argued that there was no contact between the two but there was.