Was Penhall,s Retirement The Start Of The Decline In Speedway.?

[Guest]

 

Was Penhall,s Retirement The Start Of The Decline In Speedway.?

Started by sidney, Jan 17 2014 09:08 AM

When Bruce retired the sport seemed to be in reasonable shape, but once he retired the sport seemed to go into a downward spiral.The sport then lost alot of its superstars all within the same time span which did not help.Alot of people have there view on Bruce, i thought he was awesome for the sport and it was a massive loss when he quit.I often wonder would Hans and Erik have ever of won 7 titles between them with Bruce still about.? Maybe the sport was already being dragged down before he quit, but this is the point i believe the decline really set in.

::: Has this gone off topic since the initial comment by Sidney (above)?

 

 

 

 

Oops!!

 

Sorry.

 

Why the Ooops! TWK? Were you in agreement with me?

[The White Knight]

 

 

 

Why the Ooops! TWK? Were you in agreement with me?

 

I know - but with your Post regarding sydney's Thread - I thought you meant I was going off Topic.

 

You were right - hence my apology.

[mickthemuppet]

I think it was the beginning of the end when they started letting foreigners ride in the UK. And it got even worse when they started letting foreigners ride for Great Britain.

But foreigners have always ridden in Speedway since it first began.

[The White Knight]

But foreigners have always ridden in Speedway since it first began.

 

Correct.

[waiheke1]

But foreigners have always ridden in Speedway since it first began.

Whoosh

[Grachan]

having watched the penhall/carter collision, LOADS of times in slow motion and real speed, I still couldn't say with conviction

who id exclude...at a push penhall, due to him looking for carter during that race, turning left down the straight, and I THINK, flicking his back wheel at last second,,,,1 moment wouldn't wanna be a ref

 

Penhall had him off. watch closely. That moment when he flicks the back wheel he swipes Carter's handlebars. It's one of those things that takes decades to notice, but once you see it then you see it every time.

 

With regard Penhall's retirement, it did have a negative impact on the sport. Plus, Egon Muller's victory the following year was also given negative publicity by there being no World Champion in the British League for the second year running.

 

It was certainly seen as a bad thing at the time.

[Guest]

 

I know - but with your Post regarding sydney's Thread - I thought you meant I was going off Topic.

 

You were right - hence my apology.

 

There's no need to apologise.

I think it was the beginning of the end when they started letting foreigners ride in the UK. And it got even worse when they started letting foreigners ride for Great Britain.

 

 

But foreigners have always ridden in Speedway since it first began.

 

 

 

Correct.

 

This is off topic but there were foreign riders in speedway in the days before it started in the UK at High Beech in February 1928. The best examples are of American riders who raced in Australia in the 1920s, the best known probably being Lloyd 'Sprouts" Elder who later came to the UK.

And to stay in topic, as I recall it a lot of glamour did go from the sport when Bruce Penhall retired.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Guest

[ColinMills]

maybe not just penhall, maybe love them or hate them the usa riders as a whole?

penhall, cook, sigalos, moran"s etc

[stratton]

Penhall, Autrey,Mauger,Lee,Olsen,Sanders,Sigalos,Carter, all gone by the late eighties a massive void.

[Grachan]

Penhall, Autrey,Mauger,Lee,Olsen,Sanders,Sigalos,Carter, all gone by the late eighties a massive void.

 

Not to forget we then had the next wave and lost World champions Pedersen, Jonsson and Gundersen to injury.

[stratton]

Not to forget we then had the next wave and lost World champions Pedersen, Jonsson and Gundersen to injury.

Totally right Grachan and they would of been around for years to come i suspect at the top level.

[van wolfswinkel]

crowds started falling off mid-80s and have never recovered

[waiheke1]

sidney, on 17 Jan 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

When Bruce retired the sport seemed to be in reasonable shape, but once he retired the sport seemed to go into a downward spiral.The sport then lost alot of its superstars all within the same time span which did not help.Alot of people have there view on Bruce, i thought he was awesome for the sport and it was a massive loss when he quit.I often wonder would Hans and Erik have ever of won 7 titles between them with Bruce still about.? Maybe the sport was already being dragged down before he quit, but this is the point i believe the decline really set in.

 

Speedway was in decline arguably ever since the boom post war years, but agree the 80s saw a decline from the 70s. A range of factors – the main one increased leisure alternatves (especially TV?), and Speedway’s failure to adapt to meet competition for the leisure dollar and changing consumer expectations.

The 80s was obviously tough economically, and also saw the premature losses to the sport of star attractions such as Lee, Carter, Penhall, Sanders, Sigalos. England lost their two world title hopes, as well as PC who was never a contender again after his 1980 injury. The loss of major London venues in Wembley and white city, and then iconic tracks such as Hyde Rd and the Shay didn’t help either, neither surely did the match fixing scandal. Having consecutive world champs in penhall and muller not riding in the uk, at the same time, you’d have thought having a hollywood “star” and then a “popstar” as world champs should have made the sport quite marketable?

In term of british speeday decline, the fall of commujism, and revival of the sport in Poland is obviously a turning point. A polish league with lower overheads, bigger crowds meant able to offer riders more money, and british speedway again slo to react.

Speedway just seems to have consistently missed the boat when opportunities have arisen. The failure to purchase stadiums in the boom years when land was still cheap, the failure to captialise on the launch of Sky (Speedway should have been ideal for this – meetings fitting an hour and a half slot, with high action,, and also able to be condensed easily into 30 or 60 minutes highlights packages), failure to launch pay per view internet streaming services etc.

 

The White Knight, on 18 Jan 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

The Grand Prix Series did NOTHING at all to help British Speedway. The 'one off' World Final (at Wembley) did at least put some money in to Speedway's coffers. I do believe though that Speedway's decline had started long before the Grand Prix Series. The Grand Prix Series has, to my mind, hastened that decline.

GP series may not help British speedway, but i don’t think it hinders it. I think the GP series shows ho speedway can be presented in a modern manner – perhaps the standard league speeday should aspire too?

cityrebel, on 19 Jan 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

Penhall's antics at the white city tarnished his reputation in a lot of peoples eyes.

sidney, on 19 Jan 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

I was there i liked all of the Americans so i never took alot of notice but it was a disgraceful act you would not believe that a PC or Lee would let anybody through.

 

Lots of riders did it, just perhaps not as blatantly. Gundersen and Olsen did something similar in the 82 inter-contitental final to help Bo Petersen, Ermolenko let Hanock through in an early 90s overseas final, , but no one seems to consider them tarnished. PC of course team rode with Les to keep Shaun out in the run off in that 82 meeting – motrally any better than what Penhall did?

 

ColinMills, on 19 Jan 2014 - 3:00 PM, said:

i also think the play off system stops fans travelling,,if your laying comfy in the top 3, away losses are no big deal as you only need a top 4 finish

whereas under the old system, a couple of months into the season only about three teams would have any chance of taking the title, for the rest of the teams meetings were essentially meaningless. It’s a fact that there are far more meaningful meetings under the play off system than the old system.

sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Carter was so unlucky and who knows thing's could of turned out so differently for him. It was 50/50 but Penhall was very lucky he got the call no doubt about that, that incident was on a par with the Nielsen/Knudsen incident in 86.

 

Penhall was lucky that night, but not in terms of that decision which i think was pretyt clear cut as the correct decision. He was lucky that Carter fell off, as otherwise he would have faced a run off against either Les Collins or Carter for the title. Also lucky that Les dropped points in his easiest ride.

Nielsen/Knudsen in 86 I agree as very much a 50/50 call, but hard to begrudge Nielsen, especially when he got arguably the rough end of the deal ion a similar clash with ermolenko in 93.

[ColinMills]

sidney, on 17 Jan 2014 - 10:08 PM, said:

When Bruce retired the sport seemed to be in reasonable shape, but once he retired the sport seemed to go into a downward spiral.The sport then lost alot of its superstars all within the same time span which did not help.Alot of people have there view on Bruce, i thought he was awesome for the sport and it was a massive loss when he quit.I often wonder would Hans and Erik have ever of won 7 titles between them with Bruce still about.? Maybe the sport was already being dragged down before he quit, but this is the point i believe the decline really set in.

 

Speedway was in decline arguably ever since the boom post war years, but agree the 80s saw a decline from the 70s. A range of factors – the main one increased leisure alternatves (especially TV?), and Speedway’s failure to adapt to meet competition for the leisure dollar and changing consumer expectations.

The 80s was obviously tough economically, and also saw the premature losses to the sport of star attractions such as Lee, Carter, Penhall, Sanders, Sigalos. England lost their two world title hopes, as well as PC who was never a contender again after his 1980 injury. The loss of major London venues in Wembley and white city, and then iconic tracks such as Hyde Rd and the Shay didn’t help either, neither surely did the match fixing scandal. Having consecutive world champs in penhall and muller not riding in the uk, at the same time, you’d have thought having a hollywood “star” and then a “popstar” as world champs should have made the sport quite marketable?

In term of british speeday decline, the fall of commujism, and revival of the sport in Poland is obviously a turning point. A polish league with lower overheads, bigger crowds meant able to offer riders more money, and british speedway again slo to react.

Speedway just seems to have consistently missed the boat when opportunities have arisen. The failure to purchase stadiums in the boom years when land was still cheap, the failure to captialise on the launch of Sky (Speedway should have been ideal for this – meetings fitting an hour and a half slot, with high action,, and also able to be condensed easily into 30 or 60 minutes highlights packages), failure to launch pay per view internet streaming services etc.

 

The White Knight, on 18 Jan 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

The Grand Prix Series did NOTHING at all to help British Speedway. The 'one off' World Final (at Wembley) did at least put some money in to Speedway's coffers. I do believe though that Speedway's decline had started long before the Grand Prix Series. The Grand Prix Series has, to my mind, hastened that decline.

GP series may not help British speedway, but i don’t think it hinders it. I think the GP series shows ho speedway can be presented in a modern manner – perhaps the standard league speeday should aspire too?

cityrebel, on 19 Jan 2014 - 03:01 AM, said:

Penhall's antics at the white city tarnished his reputation in a lot of peoples eyes.

sidney, on 19 Jan 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

I was there i liked all of the Americans so i never took alot of notice but it was a disgraceful act you would not believe that a PC or Lee would let anybody through.

 

Lots of riders did it, just perhaps not as blatantly. Gundersen and Olsen did something similar in the 82 inter-contitental final to help Bo Petersen, Ermolenko let Hanock through in an early 90s overseas final, , but no one seems to consider them tarnished. PC of course team rode with Les to keep Shaun out in the run off in that 82 meeting – motrally any better than what Penhall did?

 

ColinMills, on 19 Jan 2014 - 3:00 PM, said:

i also think the play off system stops fans travelling,,if your laying comfy in the top 3, away losses are no big deal as you only need a top 4 finish

whereas under the old system, a couple of months into the season only about three teams would have any chance of taking the title, for the rest of the teams meetings were essentially meaningless. It’s a fact that there are far more meaningful meetings under the play off system than the old system.

sidney, on 22 Jan 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Carter was so unlucky and who knows thing's could of turned out so differently for him. It was 50/50 but Penhall was very lucky he got the call no doubt about that, that incident was on a par with the Nielsen/Knudsen incident in 86.

 

Penhall was lucky that night, but not in terms of that decision which i think was pretyt clear cut as the correct decision. He was lucky that Carter fell off, as otherwise he would have faced a run off against either Les Collins or Carter for the title. Also lucky that Les dropped points in his easiest ride.

Nielsen/Knudsen in 86 I agree as very much a 50/50 call, but hard to begrudge Nielsen, especially when he got arguably the rough end of the deal ion a similar clash with ermolenko in 93.

this guy knows it all eh?

how can he say penhall/carter was "clear cut".....no way will people agree on that decision, it showed no "clear cut" view in those slow mo replays, one of the hardest decisions ever made..imo

[pandorum]

It didn't help to lose such a star figure but probably NO!

 

People found better things to do is the simplest answer.

Once pubs were the hub of a community but now they are struggling to survive. Like speedway a thing of the past.

 

The sport never changed and grew less VFM. People wanted more for their pound and speedway offered less.

Once every pub had a dartboard and was full of people. Now it's a slot bandit with lots of flashing lights and a lot of empty chairs.

Once my dad wore a flat cap and my mum an apron. I wear jeans and Iron Maiden T Shirts

Once speedway was cheap had two good leagues with plenty of teams and heats and with local riders. Now .....

 

Look at it now compared to the days when The Shay or Hyde Road used to be full of people watching speedway.

Sad really but the sport has declined every year for a long time now and continues to do so even with an English world champion.

 

If speedway was your pet dog you would take the poor mite to the vet.

[The White Knight]

It didn't help to lose such a star figure but probably NO!

 

People found better things to do is the simplest answer.

Once pubs were the hub of a community but now they are struggling to survive. Like speedway a thing of the past.

 

The sport never changed and grew less VFM. People wanted more for their pound and speedway offered less.

Once every pub had a dartboard and was full of people. Now it's a slot bandit with lots of flashing lights and a lot of empty chairs.

Once my dad wore a flat cap and my mum an apron. I wear jeans and Iron Maiden T Shirts

Once speedway was cheap had two good leagues with plenty of teams and heats and with local riders. Now .....

 

Look at it now compared to the days when The Shay or Hyde Road used to be full of people watching speedway.

Sad really but the sport has declined every year for a long time now and continues to do so even with an English world champion.

 

If speedway was your pet dog you would take the poor mite to the vet.

 

It gives me no pleasure at all to say you are right. :sad:

[waiheke1]

this guy knows it all eh?

 

how can he say penhall/carter was "clear cut".....no way will people agree on that decision, it showed no "clear cut" view in those slow mo replays, one of the hardest decisions ever made..imo

Except I said "I yhink it was pretty clear cut", which indicates it is an opinion not a statement of fact.

There is a rear view shot thst wasnt originally shown, which clearly demonstrates daylight between Carter and penhall at the time carter loses control. It must be on youtube somewhere

[ColinMills]

its a race I prob watched more than any other..penhall was turning left on carter down the home straight (which is irrelevant to the collision), it was a race penhall couldn't afford to lose...at that stage...really dramatic race, briggs called it penhalls way, mauger fought carters corner..normally im swung 1 way or the other, but that view wasn't the best..a few weeks before that meeting carter had a mega injury at foxhall (I think lungs connected). he wasn't fit goin into that meeting, and im just not sure he would of laid his bike down, especially on the straight

[waiheke1]

I certainly dont believe Carter lay down his bike, just that he ran out of track.

Possibily he was still hampered by the injury, though ivan seems to think it was kenny's - or rather malcolm carters- choice of tyres that cost him the title

[Grachan]

Except I said "I yhink it was pretty clear cut", which indicates it is an opinion not a statement of fact.

There is a rear view shot thst wasnt originally shown, which clearly demonstrates daylight between Carter and penhall at the time carter loses control. It must be on youtube somewhere

All that clip does is fail to show the actual contact, which is Penhall swiping the tip of Carter's handlebar when he pulls a locker. You can see this on the original tv footage if you look. Penhall knocked Carter off.