Legends What Are People's All Time Top 8.?

[The White Knight]

 

Yes the oldies like Jack Parker, Vic Duggan, Bill Kitchen, Ron Johnson, Graham Warren were far from being crowd pullers!

 

Don't forget 'Split' Waterman gustix.

[Guest]

 

Yes the oldies like Jack Parker, Vic Duggan, Bill Kitchen, Ron Johnson, Graham Warren were far from being crowd pullers!

 

 

 

Don't forget 'Split' Waterman gustix.

 

How did I manage to forget Squire aka Spit Waterman? Forgive me!

[norbold]

 

the rankings I did based on world final (or nearest equivalent at the time) stats!

Did you include the war time British Championship. If so, where does Eric Chitty feature?

[Guest]

The best rider charts are always wonderful stuff. The snag is they cover so many decades involving riders we have never seen. I doubt that anyone has seen the pre-war stars.

My guess a current time span is at best 50 years - from about 1964 onwards. Stars before that are assessed more on what the record books reveal rather tha them being judged on seeing them ride. That gives a certain mystique to those who raced prior to 1964.

One can be more judgemental on riders from 1964 to the present time.

Also of consideration is the need to reflect on the changes that have taken place since 1928 (and before worldwide): riding style - legtrail to foot foward, bikes and engines, track surfaces (cinders to shale etc), track design and so much more.

In an all-time list in what way can you evaluate old-time greats like Sprouts Elder and Vic Huxley from the pioneer days with say Tomasz Gollob, Barry Briggs and Bruce Penhall?

At best, for a fast-changing sport like speedway in my opinion the nearest we can get is to have 'best eights' for 10 year periods. The value of these is that some riders will make the crossover between eras and this surely is of more value than an 'all time top eight riders' table.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Guest

[AD1974]

Did you include the war time British Championship. If so, where does Eric Chitty feature?

 

I did but these were at a slightly reduced amount compared due to decreased level of competition. Eric Chitty comes out in 67th place on my list - obviously was one of the greats through that time but it's nearly impossible to say how good he would have been if all the other riders who had their peak years robbed by the war had been competing too.

 

As you well know Vic Duggan is another classic example - in 48th on my list - of a rider who probably would have been ranked higher in different circumstances. Then you have riders like Tom Farndon who was robbed of his peak years through injury - for the record Tom ranks a lowly 166th but was clearly better at his peak than riders such as Viktor Kuznetsov, Morian Hansen and Josef Hofmeister who are above him on the list.

 

Anything like this based solely on statistics needs a massive caveat around it explaining what is and isn't included - a little bit more to it but the superficial explanation for what I've done is look at the peak 'consecutive 15 rides', i.e. 3 years, that a rider produced at 'world final' level.

[AD1974]

The best rider charts are always wonderful stuff. The snag is they cover so many decades involving riders we have never seen. I doubt that anyone has seen the pre-war stars.

My guess a current time span is at best 50 years - from about 1964 onwards. Stars before that are assessed more on what the record books reveal rather tha them being judged on seeing them ride. That gives a certain mystique to those who raced prior to 1964.

One can be more judgemental on riders from 1964 to the present time.

Also of consideration is the need to reflect on the changes that have taken place since 1928 (and before worldwide): riding style - legtrail to foot foward, bikes and engines, track surfaces (cinders to shale etc), track design and so much more.

In an all-time list in what way can you evaluate old-time greats like Sprouts Elder and Vic Huxley from the pioneer days with say Tomasz Gollob, Barry Briggs and Bruce Penhall?

At best, for a fast-chaging sport like speedway in my opiion the nearest we can get is to have 'best eights' for 10 year periods. The value of these is that some riders will make the crossover between eras and this surely is of more value than an 'all time top eight riders' table.

 

Have to agree - there are so many unknowns really it's almost impossible to not have some level of subjectivity involved but who can give an honest opinion on nearly 100 years of the sport?! The only way you can make any comparison is on the pure stats but it will only ever be one measure and different measures will give slightly different answers. I chose around 3 years as demonstrating how good a rider was at his peak but the results have to be given with the explanation that this is the way it is done and there is NO definitive answer.

 

I wouldn't say it's far fetched to say I could name something like 50 riders who would be capable of winning a competition with them all in at their absolute peak - hardly anybody has mentioned Michanek, Jan O Pedersen or Egon Muller on here but their final wins were amongst the most dominant performances of all time and you have to doubt if anybody from the history of the sport would have stopped them on those days.

 

Even comparing riders from the same period is tough - who was better Nielsen or Gundersen for example? I've seen people arguing on the forum who was the best rider in the world from just this year - Woffinden, Ward, Sajfutdinov and a few other names too.

 

I'm a statistician so I love an answer based on numbers but taking a different definition for the rankings will give some slightly different answers.

 

The questions are endless - and importantly for lovers of the history of the sport like us are fascinating to debate :-)...

 

 

It is impossible to include league performance or results from other qualifiers and internationals but in the Gundersen/Nielsen debate they surely suggest that Nielsen was a better rider don't they?!

 

Did Ivan Mauger dominate as he did because the competition was weaker than a period with Fundin/Briggs/Craven/Moore or was he simply just so much better than anyone else? I've gone with the assumption that you can only beat what is in front of you but how much would comparitive strengths of the sport at any one time play a part?

 

Were Nielsen and Gundersen fortunate that their period of dominance came when Penhall, Carter, Lee and Sanders had all been lost to the sport? What would have happened had they all ridden through the 1980s?

 

With a GP format would Mauger have won more or less? I suspect Nielsen would have won more under a GP format but that can only ever be a guess.

Would Tony Rickardsson have been as good in one off finals or would we be saying Gollob was just as good - I find it interesting to look at the winner of the first GP of the season as replacing a one off final which gives a very different set of results. Gollob would be a 4 times champion and Jason Crump only once along with Knudsen, Adams, Sayfutdinov and Hampel.

 

Also can you compare performance over 10 GPs to 5 rides in a one-off final - trust me it's not easy :-)

 

Really any discussion should include performance over a whole season - we all know Muller and Szczakiel weren't the best riders in the world the year they won it and some better riders never made a rostrum in a final - Carter, Kelly Moran and Bobby Schwartz, who never even made a final, from my time alone! My rankings say that Armando Castagna was better than Shawn Moran and Andreas Jonsson better than Kelly Moran but having seen those riders I can't say I agree with the stats on those!

 

For all my ramblings I think I'd conclude the question is impossible to answer but brilliant to discuss :-)

[ColinMills]

couldn't start to argue that point as never saw those riders.....since I been going I made my judgement

[waiheke1]

Have to say that Collins and Penhall would not be in the top 10 ever (ie because Lee was better than both of them.Craven has to be in the top ten i am not sure about Collins and Penhall Collins was a great rider (1973-79 ) Penhall in Britain 1977-82 but all time top ten riders no.

i think i can justify their inclusion Sidney.

Collins on just the one title, but as desperately unlucky not to win a second in 77, a performance that still ranks as arguably the greatest world final display of all time. Under a GP system he would have likely won two world titles. He won orld Pairs titles wityh FIVE different partners, achieved an unprecedented three consecutive WTC maximums, won every other major title (British Final, BLRC, Inter-continental etc.), topped the british averages, averaged over 11 on at leeast one occasion - and this despite the fact that he was never the same rider afetr the iinjury he sustained in 1980 at the age of 26. That's all without mentioning that he was arguably the greatest team rider of all time, and without going into the sheer breathtaking manner of some of his victories.

Penhall was only 25 when he retired, having won back to back world titles, so who knows how many more he could have won. Under a GP system he would likely have won the same two titles, and possibly added a medal in 1980. Won most other major titles (orld PAirs, WTC, Inter continental, AMerican), and in 1981 as riding as well as any rider in history - hard to think of another season in which a rider was so dominant.

The main rivals for those last to spots:

Craven, who won two world titles, was one of the "big five", and could have won more but for his tragic death at a young age. Debate on another thread suggests however that he may never have won a title under a GP system, and not having seen footage of him racing I guess I may have some bias against him as I have no vidual evidence to show me ho good he really was.

Gundersen won three world titles, and potentially could have won more but for his career ending injuries. Won multiple PAirs, WTC and BLRC titles, and pretty much every other major event. The onyl argument against him really is that even at his peak, he was arguably second best rider in the world to Hans , and under a GP system he may have been less successful.

Nicki Pedersen seems to be the most under rated multipe world champion of alll time, especialyl given that all his three titles have been under a GP system so there can be no arguing about them being lucky. Perhaps his "dirty Nicki" person, and the fact that he is arguably not as naturally gifted as his main rivals such as Crump or Gollob, count against him?

Mike Lee is generally regarded as the most naturaly gifted rider of all time, but based on achievements I can't find a place for him in the top dozen riders of all time. He had a good world final record - one title and two rostrum finishes - and under a GP system would likely have had a similar record (i'd say 1st in 79, 2nd in 80, 3rd in 83). But in pretty much every other way, i think his record is inferior to the likes of collins and penhall - never won a pairs title, never scored a WTC final maximum, never won the BLRC (netierh did Bruce), never averaged over 11 in the BL, never had a season such as Bruce's 81 season where he was head and shoulders above every rider in the world.

So,. I'm happy to stand by my list, but on adifferent day as mentioned already, craven and Gundersen might edege into my top 10.

 

I feel he came short because, for many years, just on riding ability alone Hans Nielsen was totally in a class of his own in the British League. There was nobody who came close. When you rode against Oxford it was like winning the match if anyone in your side managed to beat him.

 

A rider of his ability should have won about 10 world titles and could have been the undisputed greatest of all time, but in world Finals he often over rode and made errors - including when he won it Poland and should have been excluded in one race for bringing off Tommy Knudsen.

 

So on World Titles alone I feel he under achieved, but as a league rider he was possibly the greatest of all time.

Agree. Had he won say two of the three title run offs he as involved in, i think he would be regarded as the all time greatest rider. As it is, choker would be too harsh, but with the pressure on - in world individual finals only - he did seem to sometimes come up lacking, whereas others such as Mauger always seemed to raise there game on world final night. his head to head world final record with his greatest rival Eric is somethiong like 3-8 against, its stats like that which i think argue against Hans being the greatest of all time.

 

 

This subject will never really be resolved. So many other great names need to come into the long-time reckoning - as already mentioned by The White Knight there's Max Groskreutz (Australia). Others would include Wilbur Lamoreaux (USA), Ron Johnson (Australia), Eric Chitty and Jimmy Gibb (both of Canada), Rune Sormander (Sweden).

great riders they may have been, but the fact is though that none of those riders on the world title, which is ultimately the key barometer of success.

 

As a proper statto type with an interest in history I love this sort of discussion. No real answer to it - hard to disagree with pretty much every name that's been mentioned so far.

 

I have done a bit of analysis based on world final appearances which gives a top 8 as below - I can explain how I've done it should anybody be interested but it's a bit boring to be honest! Suffice to say it's a solid enough way of looking at it (in my opinion) but if you look at things a different way you tend to get different answers when you boil it all down to pure numbers so I would never claim this answer is better than any other!

 

1. Ivan Mauger

2. Ove Fundin

3. Hans Nielsen

4. Tony Rickardsson

5. Barry Briggs

6. Nicki Pedersen

7. Ronnie Moore

8. Jason Crump

 

Should anybody be wondering where any other riders are on the list give me a shout and I'll put it on but don't forget it's based solely on world final performances and obviously there is much more to what really makes a rider the best in the world in any one season.

 

 

Nivki Pedersen always seems to be underrated in this type of discussion, so intersting to see him finish so high. Surprised to see him ahead of J Crump - 10 seasons in a row on the podicum! - though, so interested as to how you did these calcs?

 

before I pass on my top 8, id like to mention ermolenkos title win in 93..having been there I thort the ref handed it to him..controversy comment>,,,,fact is, he shed a chain on the 1st bend in last race, and when red lights appeared, he was clearly under power..

ermolenko finished last in his last race when he on the title, so i presume you're talking about a different ride? the clash with Nielsen, where I would agree he got lucky?

[ColinMills]

yes you right..i I also meant he got lucky where his chain came off on 1st bend stoppage and was under power..but yes, the Nielsen collision another big decision......a lot of one off finals had a big turning point..im old fashioned and would still prefer that system..instead of seein same line up, think the cut off mark in qualifiers were always cut throat

[stratton]

i think i can justify their inclusion Sidney.

Collins on just the one title, but as desperately unlucky not to win a second in 77, a performance that still ranks as arguably the greatest world final display of all time. Under a GP system he would have likely won two world titles. He won orld Pairs titles wityh FIVE different partners, achieved an unprecedented three consecutive WTC maximums, won every other major title (British Final, BLRC, Inter-continental etc.), topped the british averages, averaged over 11 on at leeast one occasion - and this despite the fact that he was never the same rider afetr the iinjury he sustained in 1980 at the age of 26. That's all without mentioning that he was arguably the greatest team rider of all time, and without going into the sheer breathtaking manner of some of his victories.

Penhall was only 25 when he retired, having won back to back world titles, so who knows how many more he could have won. Under a GP system he would likely have won the same two titles, and possibly added a medal in 1980. Won most other major titles (orld PAirs, WTC, Inter continental, AMerican), and in 1981 as riding as well as any rider in history - hard to think of another season in which a rider was so dominant.

The main rivals for those last to spots:

Craven, who won two world titles, was one of the "big five", and could have won more but for his tragic death at a young age. Debate on another thread suggests however that he may never have won a title under a GP system, and not having seen footage of him racing I guess I may have some bias against him as I have no vidual evidence to show me ho good he really was.

Gundersen won three world titles, and potentially could have won more but for his career ending injuries. Won multiple PAirs, WTC and BLRC titles, and pretty much every other major event. The onyl argument against him really is that even at his peak, he was arguably second best rider in the world to Hans , and under a GP system he may have been less successful.

Nicki Pedersen seems to be the most under rated multipe world champion of alll time, especialyl given that all his three titles have been under a GP system so there can be no arguing about them being lucky. Perhaps his "dirty Nicki" person, and the fact that he is arguably not as naturally gifted as his main rivals such as Crump or Gollob, count against him?

Mike Lee is generally regarded as the most naturaly gifted rider of all time, but based on achievements I can't find a place for him in the top dozen riders of all time. He had a good world final record - one title and two rostrum finishes - and under a GP system would likely have had a similar record (i'd say 1st in 79, 2nd in 80, 3rd in 83). But in pretty much every other way, i think his record is inferior to the likes of collins and penhall - never won a pairs title, never scored a WTC final maximum, never won the BLRC (netierh did Bruce), never averaged over 11 in the BL, never had a season such as Bruce's 81 season where he was head and shoulders above every rider in the world.

So,. I'm happy to stand by my list, but on adifferent day as mentioned already, craven and Gundersen might edege into my top 10.

 

Agree. Had he won say two of the three title run offs he as involved in, i think he would be regarded as the all time greatest rider. As it is, choker would be too harsh, but with the pressure on - in world individual finals only - he did seem to sometimes come up lacking, whereas others such as Mauger always seemed to raise there game on world final night. his head to head world final record with his greatest rival Eric is somethiong like 3-8 against, its stats like that which i think argue against Hans being the greatest of all time.

 

 

great riders they may have been, but the fact is though that none of those riders on the world title, which is ultimately the key barometer of success.

 

 

Nivki Pedersen always seems to be underrated in this type of discussion, so intersting to see him finish so high. Surprised to see him ahead of J Crump - 10 seasons in a row on the podicum! - though, so interested as to how you did these calcs?

 

 

ermolenko finished last in his last race when he on the title, so i presume you're talking about a different ride? the clash with Nielsen, where I would agree he got lucky?

Forget the pairs team events, Lee had a better world final record than Collins, he had six finals he was on the rostrum x2 a winner once and a fourth place.Collins had eight appearances a winner once ( very unlucky in 77) but Lee was unlucky in 83 i believe he was the best rider in the world that year on stats Lee is the better in my book.Certainly on the WF record also i know Lee was finished after 83 but he was up there easily with Nielsen,Erik,Sigalos, Penhall a new generation Peter was finished really by 80/81as a possible winner. Edited January 21, 2014 by sidney

[Guest]

 

great riders they may have been, but the fact is though that none of those riders won the world title, which is ultimately the key barometer of success.

 

So the criteria is from 1936?

[waiheke1]

For most, yes. Just as with football, most would selet their greats from 1930 onwards.

[ColinMills]

a darcy free page then!

[Guest]

 

great riders they may have been, but the fact is though that none of those riders on the world title, which is ultimately the key barometer of success.

 

Which rules out riders like Jack Parker, Eric Langton and Bill Kitchen then?

[waiheke1]

Its not a rule, but most people would base their lists significantly - though not exclusively - on world final performances. You're welcome to include them on your list, but given that I havent seen them ride and readily available stats dont support their claims. If you csn present stats to present a compelling case however id be genuinely interested to see it.

[Guest]

Its not a rule, but most people would base their lists significantly - though not exclusively - on world final performances. You're welcome to include them on your list, but given that I havent seen them ride and readily available stats dont support their claims. If you csn present stats to present a compelling case however id be genuinely interested to see it.

 

From your learned observations I feel you may be right insofar as riders like Jack Parker, Eric Langton, Bill Kitchen, Cordy Milne, Max Grosskreutz, Ron Johnson and others who have been mentioned have no place in a 'World's Top Eight' rating list.

I now feel like an interloper on this thread for daring to even have suggested their names.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Guest

[waiheke1]

Ffs im not disputing your right to include them on your list, jusr explaining why I and many others would exclude them. I ask if you csn provide some statistical basis to justify their inclusion, and you resort to sarcasm, rather than giving a reasoned response. A shame ss you've obviously watched a bit of dpeedway in your time

[Guest]

Ffs im not disputing your right to include them on your list, jusr explaining why I and many others would exclude them. I ask if you csn provide some statistical basis to justify their inclusion, and you resort to sarcasm, rather than giving a reasoned response. A shame ss you've obviously watched a bit of dpeedway in your time

 

I am not compiling a list. They were a few names of old time riders that I have come across.

[longlivefrankie]

for what it's worth the 10 riders who i saw who impressed me most are

 

barry briggs

ivan mauger

ole olsen

peter collins

jason crump

hans nielsen

tony rickardsson

michael lee

ronnie moore

ove fundin

[Guest]

for what it's worth the 10 riders who i saw who impressed me most are

 

barry briggs

ivan mauger

ole olsen

peter collins

jason crump

hans nielsen

tony rickardsson

michael lee

ronnie moore

ove fundin

 

I think the actual thread is only looking for a Top 8. Which two would you leave out of your list?