Legends What Are People's All Time Top 8.?

[norbold]

Hunters, I don't wish to spoil your happy memories but Craven beat Ronnie Moore in the 1961 Internationale final at Harringay. Heat 13.

Edited May 20, 2014 by norbold

[oldace]

 

Stats can also be misleading I remember watching Dave Jessup at Wembley on a 15 point maximum comfortably leading in his final race and only needing 2nd place for the World Title, suddenly on the last bend, of I think the third lap his chain comes off and that was the end of the dream for him. Ole Olsen watching from the pits could not have believed his luck as he was gifted his third title. There have been several similar instances over the years.

 

 

 

To be pedantic, jessups wembley ef in 78 was his first ride not his last, which is vastly different in context.

Jessup is though under rated in discussions of great btitish riders imho, though not in the ssme bracket ss oc x2 and Lee, certainly belongs in that next chunk of riders.

 

 

To be even more pedantic he wasn't on a max from his other 4 rides, Kennet beat him last time out, a win for DJ there would have given him outright second place.

 

And even more pedantic still, it wasn't a chain failure that caused Jessup to stop in his first ride either

[The White Knight]

 

 

 

 

To be even more pedantic he wasn't on a max from his other 4 rides, Kennet beat him last time out, a win for DJ there would have given him outright second place.

 

And even more pedantic still, it wasn't a chain failure that caused Jessup to stop in his first ride either

Wasn't it a broken rod in his engine or something that would have cost him about three shillings or something like that?

[Hunters]

I guess that's the problem of recalling 66 years of detail without having reference books to check my memory but Ronnie Moore did win it or did he? You will have me doubting my own name.

[norbold]

Ove Fundin won the 1961 Internationale at Harringay. Sorry, Hunters.

[waiheke1]

Wasn't it a broken rod in his engine or something that would have cost him about three shillings or something like that?

Not sure but the first of his two ef in the 81 final was I believe a 20p clip of some sort which came adrift

[oldace]

Not sure but the first of his two ef in the 81 final was I believe a 20p clip of some sort which came adrift

Dave Jessup had a liking for drilling holes in things to reduce weight. He had drilled holes in the jubilee clip that secures the carb to the flange and unfortunately for him it broke letting the carb come lose. His second engine failure that night was a bit more costly, the engine seized

[The White Knight]

Dave Jessup had a liking for drilling holes in things to reduce weight. He had drilled holes in the jubilee clip that secures the carb to the flange and unfortunately for him it broke letting the carb come lose. His second engine failure that night was a bit more costly, the engine seized

 

Not sure but the first of his two ef in the 81 final was I believe a 20p clip of some sort which came adrift

Thank you for that folks.

[stratton]

Dave Jessup had a liking for drilling holes in things to reduce weight. He had drilled holes in the jubilee clip that secures the carb to the flange and unfortunately for him it broke letting the carb come lose. His second engine failure that night was a bit more costly, the engine seized

When he was at KIng,s Lynn ,he was always borrowing Lee,s bikes not being nasty he was never good anough to be a world champion.

[waiheke1]

Disagree sid he was clearly good enough.

A rider who had one 2nd place finish, and but for ef would have potentially added a title and another second to thst, is clearly good enough. Perhaps not professional enough? An accusation which could be labelled against others, the moran s for example.

Jessup in 80 was comfortably the best ridrr in the world, so while he may have been nowhere near the calibre as a racer of your collins lees penhalls etc, he was still a rider cspable of winning a world title. Perhaps hampel is his modern equivalent? Though hampel has achieved dominance in domestic speedway that dj never did.

[fatface]

Stats can also be misleading I remember watching Dave Jessup at Wembley on a 15 point maximum comfortably leading in his final race and only needing 2nd place for the World Title, suddenly on the last bend, of I think the third lap his chain comes off and that was the end of the dream for him. Ole Olsen watching from the pits could not have believed his luck as he was gifted his third title. There have been several similar instances over the years.

 

In the famous old words there are Statistics, Statistics and Damned Lies

There's also getting the facts completely wrong, It was Jessup's first race where he packed up. Where you really there? Seems a strange muddled recollection.

 

I also baulk when I hear of Jessup being robbed by engine failure in 1978. It's one thing packing up in a later ride when the title is within your grasp. It's quite another breaking down in your first ride, knowing the title is beyond you and not having to deal with the mounting pressure thereafter. Jessup's REAL chance came in 1980 when he was the top rider in the world that year. He beat Lee and PC in his all-important opener, but let three points slip by in his remaining races. No engine failures then. No Mauger, no Olsen and a debutant Penhall. But plenty of pressure.

Edited May 21, 2014 by falcace

[waiheke1]

There's also getting the facts completely wrong, It was Jessup's first race where he packed up. Where you really there? Seems a strange muddled recollection.

 

I also baulk when I hear of Jessup being robbed by engine failure in 1978. It's one thing packing up in a later ride when the title is within your grasp. It's quite another breaking down in your first ride, knowing the title is beyond you and not having to deal with the mounting pressure thereafter. Jessup's REAL chance came in 1980 when he was the top rider in the world that year. He beat Lee and PC in his all-important opener, but let three points slip by in his remaining races. No engine failures then. No Mauger, no Olsen and a debutant Penhall. But plenty of pressure.

Tbf, in 80 he also had two rides off gate 3, which rrturned a total of 19 points all night (4 from jessup). on world final night, the smallest advantages/disadvantages could make the critical difference.

[stratton]

Disagree sid he was clearly good enough.

A rider who had one 2nd place finish, and but for ef would have potentially added a title and another second to thst, is clearly good enough. Perhaps not professional enough? An accusation which could be labelled against others, the moran s for example.

Jessup in 80 was comfortably the best ridrr in the world, so while he may have been nowhere near the calibre as a racer of your collins lees penhalls etc, he was still a rider cspable of winning a world title. Perhaps hampel is his modern equivalent? Though hampel has achieved dominance in domestic speedway that dj never did.

In 1980 Lee was just coming off those back injuries at the NEC so that made it look like DJ was dominant.For me he was a very good rider indeed, but not in the same league as PC, Lee,and Simmo for me anyway.Was he good anough? maybe he was but when i look at Gollob( only 1 title),Adams,S.Moran,Sigalos,Sanders,Carter, all of those riders i rated higher.

[fatface]

In 1980 Lee was just coming off those back injuries at the NEC so that made it look like DJ was dominant.For me he was a very good rider indeed, but not in the same league as PC, Lee,and Simmo for me anyway.Was he good anough? maybe he was but when i look at Gollob( only 1 title),Adams,S.Moran,Sigalos,Sanders,Carter, all of those riders i rated higher.

Agree. There are those riders who took a little while to win a title, but they were just too good not to win one eventually, riders like Hans Nielsen and Jason Crump. There are others who were a tier below them who simply had to take the chance when it came. Guys like Gary Havelock and (begrudgingly) Egon Muller seized the day when their chance came. Riders like Dave Jessup and Shawn Moran didn't quite do it (I'm thinking 85 by the way, when he was heavily fancied, but didn't perform).

 

 

[lucifer sam]

Agree. There are those riders who took a little while to win a title, but they were just too good not to win one eventually, riders like Hans Nielsen and Jason Crump. There are others who were a tier below them who simply had to take the chance when it came. Guys like Gary Havelock and (begrudgingly) Egon Muller seized the day when their chance came. Riders like Dave Jessup and Shawn Moran didn't quite do it (I'm thinking 85 by the way, when he was heavily fancied, but didn't perform).

 

 

Agree with most of that, although for me Shawn Moran's big chance was 1990. No Erik; no Jan O (I was convinced he was going to win that year); no Wiggy; Hans looking very subdued every time he went to Odsal since Erik's accident there. A golden opportunity for Shooey (and for Kelvin Tatum for that matter).

 

Had Moran won in 1990, I don't think first place would have been taken away in the same manner as second place. I always considered that weird. Rider warns before Overseas Final what medication he's been taking for a 'flu bug, but given OK to ride. FIM then wait for three months to decide actually it's not OK after all. Had Moran been World Champion, I don't think the FIM would have had the balls to take that away from him.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited May 22, 2014 by lucifer sam

[fatface]

 

Agree with most of that, although for me Shawn Moran's big chance was 1990. No Erik; no Jan O (I was convinced he was going to win that year); no Wiggy; Hans looking very subdued every time he went to Odsal since Erik's accident there. A golden opportunity for Shooey (and for Kelvin Tatum for that matter).

 

Had Moran won in 1990, I don't think first place would have been taken away in the same manner as second place. I always considered that weird. Rider warns before Overseas Final what medication he's been taking for a 'flu bug, but given OK to ride. FIM then wait for three months to decide actually it's not OK after all. Had Moran been World Champion, I don't think the FIM would have had the balls to take that away from him.

 

All the best

Rob

And I agree with most of that. Blimey - this thread is most agreeable

 

I take your point on 1990. But Nielsen was an odds-on favourite that night and just wasn't at his sharpest. However, I do rate Per Jonsson very highly and think of him as nothing but a bona fide fully deserving champ. But I think you are spot on regarding Moran's weird disqualification months later. I reckon if he had won the run-off that night, then it would have been swept under the carpet and we would never have known anything about it.

 

Where I do disagree is Hans being subdued at Odsal since Gundersen's accident. Think you're letting the Nielsen fan in you make excuses for him there. No one ever suggested Gundersen's accident had anything to do with Odsal, so there was no reason for anyone to be spooked by the place. There was also nothing subdued about the way Nielsen shoved Tatum aside in the final. It's just on this particular night, he didn't produce his best form.

Edited May 22, 2014 by falcace

[lucifer sam]

And I agree with most of that. Blimey - this thread is most agreeable

 

I take your point on 1990. But Nielsen was an odds-on favourite that night and just wasn't at his sharpest. However, I do rate Per Jonsson very highly and think of him as nothing but a bona fide fully deserving champ. But I think you are spot on regarding Moran's weird disqualification months later. I reckon if he had won the run-off that night, then it would have been swept under the carpet and we would never have known anything about it.

 

Where I do disagree is Hans being subdued at Odsal since Gundersen's accident. Think you're letting the Nielsen fan in you make excuses for him there. No one ever suggested Gundersen's accident had anything to do with Odsal, so there was no reason for anyone to be spooked by the place. There was also nothing subdued about the way Nielsen shoved Tatum aside in the final. It's just on this particular night, he didn't produce his best form.

 

No it's not an excuse, just an observation of seeing Hans several times at Odsal around this time.

 

His form at Odsal did change after Erik's accident. I saw him there in the 1988 World Pairs Final - 30-point paid maximum (no mean feat with six riders in a race). But he went there late in '89, he went there and didn't even get double figures. That never happened with Hans. The 1990 Gold Cup Final he took seven riders and only scored paid 11 or 12 out of a possible 21. For some reason, Hans never produced his best form at Odsal after Erik's accident. I don't know why. As you've pointed out, it wasn't like there was a lack of aggression as Tatum found out as Nielsen took revenge for Tatum's over-aggressive ride in the 1989 ICF at Odsal (mentioned by Briggo in his auto-biography, as something Tatum didn't need to do, and cost him later!!).

 

 

I seem to remember us having a similar conversation before. I wasn't at all surprised when Hans didn't win in 1990.... and everyone who had him down as an odds-on favourite hadn't been taking note of the previous five months! He was having a subdued season by his own standards (on a 10.20 average rather than a 11.00+, although yes he was still top of the averages by a distance!!). I was far more surprised in 1991, his form leading up to that final was excellent and in general he looked sharper in 1991. I fully expected Hans to win at Gothenburg and was disappointed when he didn't.

 

I don't know who I thought would win in 1990 after Jan O got hurt. Per Jonsson was a classy rider who deserved to win one, although ironically he wasn't on form at all in 1990; Per's best era came from 1992 until his accident in 1994, and he was also very good in 1987 & 1988. He was inconsistent in 1990 to say the least (Paul Dugard beat him at Oxford), and outshone at Reading by Todd Wiltshire and Donkey. However, I got the feeling it was Jonsson's night the moment Jimmy Nilsen made a massive clanger in their first race and gave away an almost certain win. From then on, Per rode a blinder and deserved to win on the night. In the run-off, he produced a start when it mattered most.

 

In contrast, I felt Per Jonsson was the best rider in the world in 1992, but it was Havvy who took his chance come the final. The 1992 was probably the weakest of all-time (no defending champion Jan O; no Hans) - still amazed that Gert Handberg got into the top three in a World Final!

 

 

All the best

Rob

 

EDIT: Just thought of another rider missing the '90 final through injury - Simon Cross. He was in the form of his life at the start of that season; he outshone Hans over the three England vs Denmark tests.

Edited May 22, 2014 by lucifer sam

[Gavan]

Wasn't it a broken rod in his engine or something that would have cost him about three shillings or something like that?

jubilee clip

[fatface]

 

I don't know who I thought would win in 1990 after Jan O got hurt. Per Jonsson was a classy rider who deserved to win one, although ironically he wasn't on form at all in 1990; Per's best era came from 1992 until his accident in 1994, and he was also very good in 1987 & 1988. He was inconsistent in 1990 to say the least (Paul Dugard beat him at Oxford), and outshone at Reading by Todd Wiltshire and Donkey. However, I got the feeling it was Jonsson's night the moment Jimmy Nilsen made a massive clanger in their first race and gave away an almost certain win. From then on, Per rode a blinder and deserved to win on the night. In the run-off, he produced a start when it mattered most.

 

In contrast, I felt Per Jonsson was the best rider in the world in 1992, but it was Havvy who took his chance come the final. The 1992 was probably the weakest of all-time (no defending champion Jan O; no Hans) - still amazed that Gert Handberg got into the top three in a World Final!

 

Yes, 1990 may not have been Nielsen at his absolute best. But he was still the best as far as almost everyone was concerned. Hence he was red-hot favourite. But as above it's right and proper that Per Jonsson went down as a World Champion. I actually thought it was less a Nilsen clanger, more an example of Jonsson's cleverness. He was absolutely brilliant at getting his wheels in line quicker than others.

 

As for 1992. Yes, by then, Jonssson was in my eyes no1. I went to a few World Champs meetings that year including the semi at Bradford and the final. His from-behind wins against Havelock in the semi and Knudsen in the final were the best rides of both meetings - he was probably the only rider at the time who could consistently beat the best from behind. But again, Havvy was a fair champ in my eyes. He was certainly one of the top riders in the world that year and when his chance came, he grabbed it.

 

Finally, excuse me giving my trumpet a wee toot. On the way to the 92 final, I actually had Handberg in my top three. My Dad and everyone else on the coach thought I was way out. But I felt it was the sort of line-up that was ripe for someone like him to emerge from the pack. It wasn't the best line-up ever. Still say 1989 was weaker though. At least by 1992 the FIM had got rid of the absurd Intercontinental and Continental system.

[Gavan]

The 1989 World final was very low on quality in my opinion.

The 1992 wasnt much better.