Legends What Are People's All Time Top 8.?

[nw42]

I would disagree ER, saying that you know your stuff, i think PC riding at HYDE RD loved it he knew he could gate poorly and still pick riders off.THe main reason he loved the track he had every confidence in the fairness of the track and it was fair. I believe.Lee is the quickest rider if not one of the quickest riders i have ever seen he beat Crump easily 2.1 in the helmet in 84 and beat Phil half a straight Crump was a class rider then too.

 

 

You make good points Sidney, all valid, maybe you are playing devils advocate, if so you do it well.. I watched speedway regularly throughout both their careers, admittedly most of it at Hyde Rd but we travelled everywhere as well. There's no denying Lee was faster but PC had the ability and confidence to create lines others hadn't even thought possible, he could find the traction. Don't forget he was passing the world's best on a regular basis, takes some doing, more often than not Lee would be leading from the start.

 

For me the thrill of speedway is the passing, gating is so important we know but have I ever found myself lurching forward in my chair when concentrating on the start of a deciding heat on the tv, not really, starting isn't exciting to me, it's just part of the build up to a race. However, plenty of times when watching the the likes Loram or Ward for example I can become totally submerged in their attempts to pass someone, it's mesmerising, PC made a career out of being like that, I'm sure he would have loved to be able to gate but as ER says, the English disease........

If I think back to those days and picture a race with either PC or Mike in it, you could look at what was going on around Mike, mostly behind him, and not worry about missing anything but if PC was in a race you wouldn't want to take your eyes off what he was doing, often building speed over a couple or even 3 laps and then making the most outrageous move to pass.

The first time I saw Gollob doing it at his favourite Polish track similarly enthralling viewing. Funnily enough Mike Lee's long track win is among my favourite you tube clips,

 

Lee was a very skilful rider and had the fastest machinery around for a time, his career was built on speed, he was probably England's best gater until Carter came along.

I'm glad I was lucky enough to have watched the sport live when both Lee and Collins were in their prime. These days it's Ward who I look to for those moves.

 

Keep it going Sidney, another cracking thread.

[EnglishRoundabout]

Have to agree with your post nw42. How lucky you were to watch speedway at the great Hyde Road. Also, for the record, Sidney gets some stick on here, but he know's his stuff and does often start some good provocative debates.

[The White Knight]

Have to agree with your post nw42. How lucky you were to watch speedway at the great Hyde Road. Also, for the record, Sidney gets some stick on here, but he know's his stuff and does often start some good provocative debates.

 

He certainly does.

 

Great to read about the 'old days' of and find out what others think. :approve:

 

I started going to Speedway 50 years ago in 1964 so I experienced a lot of the things that sidney talks about. I always enjoy his Topics.

[EnglishRoundabout]

Sidney's an old git too White Knight!

[stratton]

You make good points Sidney, all valid, maybe you are playing devils advocate, if so you do it well.. I watched speedway regularly throughout both their careers, admittedly most of it at Hyde Rd but we travelled everywhere as well. There's no denying Lee was faster but PC had the ability and confidence to create lines others hadn't even thought possible, he could find the traction. Don't forget he was passing the world's best on a regular basis, takes some doing, more often than not Lee would be leading from the start.

 

For me the thrill of speedway is the passing, gating is so important we know but have I ever found myself lurching forward in my chair when concentrating on the start of a deciding heat on the tv, not really, starting isn't exciting to me, it's just part of the build up to a race. However, plenty of times when watching the the likes Loram or Ward for example I can become totally submerged in their attempts to pass someone, it's mesmerising, PC made a career out of being like that, I'm sure he would have loved to be able to gate but as ER says, the English disease........

If I think back to those days and picture a race with either PC or Mike in it, you could look at what was going on around Mike, mostly behind him, and not worry about missing anything but if PC was in a race you wouldn't want to take your eyes off what he was doing, often building speed over a couple or even 3 laps and then making the most outrageous move to pass.

The first time I saw Gollob doing it at his favourite Polish track similarly enthralling viewing. Funnily enough Mike Lee's long track win is among my favourite you tube clips,

 

Lee was a very skilful rider and had the fastest machinery around for a time, his career was built on speed, he was probably England's best gater until Carter came along.

I'm glad I was lucky enough to have watched the sport live when both Lee and Collins were in their prime. These days it's Ward who I look to for those moves.

 

Keep it going Sidney, another cracking thread.

A really good post you are so right, i was so fortunate like yourself like ER and TWK to see Collins and Lee ride certainly at they're best.Collins they're is no doubt in my mind he was the BEST ever rider i see that could pass.He missed the gate but so what as someone else said he picked lines that not many other riders would pick.At Hyde Rd at times it was embarrassing Collins would be behind but you knew he would conjure something up. Edited February 28, 2014 by sidney

[The White Knight]

Perhaps we should have a special Section on the Forum for 'Old Gits'. :shock:

 

I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!! :shock:

 

Victor M.

[nw42]

 

He certainly does.

 

Great to read about the 'old days' of and find out what others think. :approve:

 

I started going to Speedway 50 years ago in 1964 so I experienced a lot of the things that sidney talks about. I always enjoy his Topics.

 

 

I was born in 1960 WK, although I was taken there a few times prior to 68 that was the year I was learning to fill the programme in and paying more attention to it all. In Chris Morton's book, Until the Can Ran Out, he tells of jumping the fence on the back straight to retrieve the discarded tear-offs after the riders had left the track, well me and my dad used to sit just behind the spot where they would vault the fence, I'd have to watch them doing that and be really jealous, dad made sure I stayed put.

I agree with you both, Sidney does know his stuff, I also relate to a lot of his comments. He's a Backtrack era fans dream.

Edited February 28, 2014 by nw42

[Guest]

A really good post you are so right, i was so fortunate like yourself to see Collins and Lee ride certainly at they're best.Collins they're is no doubt in my mind he was the BEST ever rider i see that could pass.He missed the gate but so what as someone else said he picked lines that not many other riders would pick.At Hyde Rd at times it was embarrassing Collins would be behind but you knew he would conjure something up.

 

Getting back (...and I mean back) I saw riders (all time greats as well) like Vic Duggan, Ron Johnson, Jack Parker, Tommy Price at their best. And quite a few more riders now regard as legends of speedway. But not for a moment would I try to evaluate them against the more recent time stars mentioned in this absorbingly interesting thread.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Guest

[stratton]

Getting back (...and I mean back) I saw riders (all time greats as well) like Vic Duggan, Ron Johnson, Jack Parker, Tommy Price at their best. And quite a few more riders now regard as legends of speedway. But not for a moment would I try to evaluate them against the more recent time stars mentioned in this absorbingly interesting thread.

In a way Gustix" it is best to cherish admire how good these riders were in THERE time.I can always remember something that Fred Davis ( snooker his brother was arguably the best?) said!.And Fred was someone i admired he ( reached a WC at the age of 64 his words were great players could compete in any ERA that statement is what I go on Farndon for example would be in the mix in any era class always comes through. Edited March 1, 2014 by sidney

[WestGorton1884]

Really enjoying the Collins / Lee debate , not sure about the "PC was dominant around Hyde Road " line though

it was his home track , of course he'd be more successful there , but from 1974 to say 79 i watched the Aces home & away and he was a class apart , he could pick lines on a track other riders would only dream of using !, like the Slaski stadium in 1976 !

 

i remember going to Sheffield one night when Wyer & Valentine were flying , and he absolutely destroyed them .

I loved Michael Lee , i was at Hyde Road when he rode for Boston as a 16 yr old in a inter league challenge match, and you could tell then he'd be a star . but he was no Peter Collins ... sorry

[stratton]

Really enjoying the Collins / Lee debate , not sure about the "PC was dominant around Hyde Road " line though

it was his home track , of course he'd be more successful there , but from 1974 to say 79 i watched the Aces home & away and he was a class apart , he could pick lines on a track other riders would only dream of using !, like the Slaski stadium in 1976 !

 

i remember going to Sheffield one night when Wyer & Valentine were flying , and he absolutely destroyed them .

I loved Michael Lee , i was at Hyde Road when he rode for Boston as a 16 yr old in a inter league challenge match, and you could tell then he'd be a star . but he was no Peter Collins ... sorry

I can remember the meeting Lee as a 16 year old riding for Boston and scoring 6 pts he was right on the pace i have the programme.On you tube there is great footage of a Collins v Lee race at the 1978 golden jubilee meeting at Hyde Rd one of the best races i have ever seen. This followed PCs win over Tony Davey for the Golden Helmet great days.

[nw42]

I can remember the meeting Lee as a 16 year old riding for Boston and scoring 6 pts he was right on the pace i have the programme.On you tube there is great footage of a Collins v Lee race at the 1978 golden jubilee meeting at Hyde Rd one of the best races i have ever seen. This followed PCs win over Tony Davey for the Golden Helmet great days.

 

 

Cheers for the heads up on that Sidney, just watched it and you're right, it was a very good race, Lee was flying but PC just lined him up over a couple of laps, he had no answer to PC's trackcraft.

I also recall attending the inter-league match but could no way remember any of the racing, your memory is impressive.

 

West Gorton, we used to have some great matches at Owlerton, always loved going there. Do you remember a test match of some sort being ridden there on a Sunday in the late 70's, not sure if it was against the Americans, think it was as I'm sure I remember Penhall being there. I have some photos from that meeting somewhere.

[stratton]

Cheers for the heads up on that Sidney, just watched it and you're right, it was a very good race, Lee was flying but PC just lined him up over a couple of laps, he had no answer to PC's trackcraft.

I also recall attending the inter-league match but could no way remember any of the racing, your memory is impressive.

 

West Gorton, we used to have some great matches at Owlerton, always loved going there. Do you remember a test match of some sort being ridden there on a Sunday in the late 70's, not sure if it was against the Americans, think it was as I'm sure I remember Penhall being there. I have some photos from that meeting somewhere.

 

I can remember the 1983 test there i have two races on disc i believe Neil Collins was the hero in the last race coming in as a reserve.

[nw42]

I can remember the 1983 test there i have two races on disc i believe Neil Collins was the hero in the last race coming in as a reserve.

 

 

It could be that one Sidney but I'm sure I remember Penhall, could be wrong. It was definitely a Sunday afternoon, fine day and some good racing. In fact I think you have the right meeting, from memory the yanks had Sigalos, King, Moran brothers, not sure when King arrived here but I'd imagine it was later than 80.

[stratton]

It could be that one Sidney but I'm sure I remember Penhall, could be wrong. It was definitely a Sunday afternoon, fine day and some good racing. In fact I think you have the right meeting, from memory the yanks had Sigalos, King, Moran brothers, not sure when King arrived here but I'd imagine it was later than 80.

King arrived in 82, the USA team Penhall certainly didn't ride in the 1983 test match maybe it was a earlier year "nw.? I remember PC and Lee in 83 riding against Shawn Moran in one race Morans bike slowed and aloud the Brits a 5.1 in the second from last race.Then in the final race N Collins i think with Carter? won the match for the Brits great track Owlerton.

[Hunters]

As one of those 'Old Gits' who started in the 40's let me put my oar in. We know its difficult to compare generations rather like trying to compare Fangio with Senna in F1 but I am sure that the best of the Pre War riders would hold their own if on levels terms. They certainly had the guts with the risks they took on that equipment and in those conditions, no wonder there were so many fatalities.

I only saw some of the Pre War riders but from what people who did see them told me the general opinion was that Vic Huxley was No 1. In the 40's I seem to recall that Vic Duggan set what is possibly still a record 33 consecutive league heat wins at the top level.

My personal top 10 that I have seen (8 is not enough) in no particular order are Duggan, Briggs, Fundin, Moore, Craven, Mauger,Gundersen, Neilsen, Rickardson,Crump.

 

I leave out Collins,Lee & Penhall because for my thinking they were gone too soon and I cannot believe I have left out the brilliant Jack Young but again he was in and out so lacked a continuous run.

 

Stats can also be misleading I remember watching Dave Jessup at Wembley on a 15 point maximum comfortably leading in his final race and only needing 2nd place for the World Title, suddenly on the last bend, of I think the third lap his chain comes off and that was the end of the dream for him. Ole Olsen watching from the pits could not have believed his luck as he was gifted his third title. There have been several similar instances over the years.

 

In the famous old words there are Statistics, Statistics and Damned Lies

 

My personal favourite with his red scarf flying behind him it was Ronnie Moore. If he had committed more to speedway instead of missing some seasons out to help his father he would have won more than two titles and Briggs and Fundin would have had less. How I still remember watching the Internationale at Harringay in 1961 when Moore beat Fundin, Briggs and Craven in style. His only failing was he never rode for my team !

 

Now you can all say it 'An Old Gits Nostalgia'

[stratton]

As one of those 'Old Gits' who started in the 40's let me put my oar in. We know its difficult to compare generations rather like trying to compare Fangio with Senna in F1 but I am sure that the best of the Pre War riders would hold their own if on levels terms. They certainly had the guts with the risks they took on that equipment and in those conditions, no wonder there were so many fatalities.I only saw some of the Pre War riders but from what people who did see them told me the general opinion was that Vic Huxley was No 1. In the 40's I seem to recall that Vic Duggan set what is possibly still a record 33 consecutive league heat wins at the top level.My personal top 10 that I have seen (8 is not enough) in no particular order are Duggan, Briggs, Fundin, Moore, Craven, Mauger,Gundersen, Neilsen, Rickardson,Crump.I leave out Collins,Lee & Penhall because for my thinking they were gone too soon and I cannot believe I have left out the brilliant Jack Young but again he was in and out so lacked a continuous run.Stats can also be misleading I remember watching Dave Jessup at Wembley on a 15 point maximum comfortably leading in his final race and only needing 2nd place for the World Title, suddenly on the last bend, of I think the third lap his chain comes off and that was the end of the dream for him. Ole Olsen watching from the pits could not have believed his luck as he was gifted his third title. There have been several similar instances over the years.In the famous old words there are Statistics, Statistics and Damned LiesMy personal favourite with his red scarf flying behind him it was Ronnie Moore. If he had committed more to speedway instead of missing some seasons out to help his father he would have won more than two titles and Briggs and Fundin would have had less. How I still remember watching the Internationale at Harringay in 1961 when Moore beat Fundin, Briggs and Craven in style. His only failing was he never rode for my team !Now you can all say it 'An Old Gits Nostalgia'

Great post a bit of a mix of all generations,but i could not disagree with any of them.You could speak to 100 people and they would all have different views that's what it is all about in my opinion.

[waiheke1]

To be pedantic, jessups wembley ef in 78 was his first ride not his last, which is vastly different in context.

Jessup is though under rated in discussions of great btitish riders imho, though not in the ssme bracket ss oc x2 and Lee, certainly belongs in that next chunk of riders.

[moxey63]

Perhaps a little down the pecking order, I would regard Mark "Buzz" Burrows as a "Legend" in his particular standard.

 

Discuss...

Edited May 19, 2014 by moxey63

[Hunters]

First race not last? The little grey cells must be going quicker than I thought. now you have me doubting everything I remember.r